US Presidential Elections thread - the fate of the world to be decided (10 Viewers)

Who would you vote to be the next President of the United States?

  • John McCain

  • Barack Obama

  • undecided


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
And I don't really see a reason to be in a political party. I'd rather not condemn myself to following a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what the circumstances, just like the brainwashed Republicans I know whom I hate. No sense in signing up for something you don't thoroughly believe in.
This applies to politics in general but especially now with the precarious situation joining a party and giving them the idea that you're "loyal" and will vote for them come what may is probably the worst thing to do. It's one thing if they are credible and actually live up to their political program. But the 2006 hoopla saw the Democrats get the House back on the back of promises of ending the war and getting the bastards impeached. And Pelosi was one of the loudest mouths on that score. Since then she's done absolutely nothing to that end and actually voted through several things that helps the war continue. It's fucking scandalous.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Sep 26, 2007
2,119
And I don't really see a reason to be in a political party. I'd rather not condemn myself to following a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what the circumstances, just like the brainwashed Republicans I know whom I hate. No sense in signing up for something you don't thoroughly believe in.
This applies to politics in general but especially now with the precarious situation joining a party and giving them the idea that you're "loyal" and will vote for them come what may is probably the worst thing to do. It's one thing if they are credible and actually live up to their political program. But the 2006 hoopla saw the Democrats get the House back on the back of promises of ending the war and getting the bastards impeached. And Pelosi was one of the loudest mouths on that score. Since then she's done absolutely nothing to that end and actually voted through several things that helps the war continue. It's fucking scandalous.
You guys are looking way too much into being registered within a party. I am a registered Democrat, but I don't believe I have to follow my party with everything. I tend to lean toward Democrats but I have a lot of 'republican' stances. Registering within a party at least in New York has a purpose. If you register as an independent, you don't get to take part in the primaries, a major part of the political process. Nothing stops me from voting Republican, Independent, or even for the Green Party in any other election. The only time I am limited to the Democratic party is during the primaries something any of you Independents cannot even take part in. So I think that everyone should register for a party regardless if you do not stand for 40% of what they believe in. Just pick the party you lean towards or you will be missing out on an important part of the political process. At least I can say I voted for Obama who I want to become the presidential nominee something I couldn't say as a registered independent.
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
Well, since Martin cannot come up with any stats, and is bitching like a woman on the rag, he can take solace that he doesnt have to live in such a brutal country like the United States, with its many forces of corrupt and dirty cops, who are just waiting in the shadows for its next victim(s)

And Andy, when you decide to mouth off to an officer when you feel some courage, and they give you a beating, then come back here and state your case

Until then, all you've got is a campus cop giving you shit for alleged public intoxication......lets not play the innocent rapper/drug dealer being hassled by the cops for being black card
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
Well, since Martin cannot come up with any stats, and is bitching like a woman on the rag, he can take solace that he doesnt have to live in such a brutal country like the United States, with its many forces of corrupt and dirty cops, who are just waiting in the shadows for its next victim(s)

And Andy, when you decide to mouth off to an officer when you feel some courage, and they give you a beating, then come back here and state your case

Until then, all you've got is a campus cop giving you shit for alleged public intoxication......lets not play the innocent rapper/drug dealer being hassled by the cops for being black card

Ryan is one of nearly 200 people who have died in the last five years after being shot by a Taser stun gun. In June, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it would review these deaths.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/

The company says there are none. Critics argue that there hasn't been enough research into the safety of stun guns. They point to the deaths since 2001 of more than 50 people in North America after Taser shocks.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tasers/

It follows the case of a Polish immigrant who died after officers from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police twice stunned him with Taser guns and secured him to the floor.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7116917.stm

Taser has built this monopoly through influence peddling, savvy public relations and by hiring former law enforcement and military officers—including one-time Homeland Security chief hopeful, Bernard Kerik. And now that questions are being raised about the safety of Taser weaponry, the company is fighting back with legal and marketing campaigns.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2894/

This is the latest challenge to Scottsdale-based Taser International's claim that its stun guns have never caused a death or serious injury and comes a week after an Illinois police department filed a class-action lawsuit claiming Taser misled law enforcement agencies about the safety of its weapon.

The death is the 18th case in which a coroner has cited Taser as a factor in someone's death and the fourth case where Taser has been named as a cause of death. But in all of those, Taser was secondary to other factors such as drugs, heart conditions or mental illness.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0730taser30.html


Safe my ass.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
I know you didn't, Enron. But Vinni has insinuated that he doesn't really see a problem with police brutality. Yes, he hasn't said that he supports it, but what Martin is after is a solution to the problem; a problem that Vinni doesn't acknowledge. That's why I'm sort of defending Martin in this cause, especially considering the following.
Then why say it, Andy.

Insinuated? How do you insinuate something on an internet forum. Was it his body language? Vinnie has never promoted police brutality. He has said that the 30 second clips you see on police chase shows or Youtube don't show the whole incident. That is true. You basically read what you want to. And you're not sort of supporting Martin, you are. Quit using transparencies to find some sort of fake neutrality. It's alright to have an opinion.


Actually, Vinni was the one that first came out and remarked on Martin's intelligence without any reason. Of course he won't respond kindly to that, and I don't blame him. Martin has brought up a bunch of valid points to boot.
Well if you keep wanking on the guy's profession, expecting him to turn against his own. I would expect some kind of reaction.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
And I don't really see a reason to be in a political party. I'd rather not condemn myself to following a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what the circumstances, just like the brainwashed Republicans I know whom I hate. No sense in signing up for something you don't thoroughly believe in.
What do you mean by condemning yourself to a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what? You don't have to vote for your party. As a Democrat, I rarely vote straight party ticket. I did once in a local election. That's one of the great things about our system, no matter what party you're in you can vote for whoever you want. Hell I've voted third party a few times. So I really don't get what you're trying to say.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
Duh, its electricity into your body. But its definitely safer than a gun. Rather than keeping this argument going I'm going to propose some rather crazy. How about you come up with a solution? People complain, complain, complain about bad situations in the world and no one ever says "Hey I disagree with this and here is a better way to go". So what do you propose cops use for non deadly force? Rubber bullets, pepper spray, stun guns, what? Then maybe we can get back to topic and start discussing the election again.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,780
This applies to politics in general but especially now with the precarious situation joining a party and giving them the idea that you're "loyal" and will vote for them come what may is probably the worst thing to do. It's one thing if they are credible and actually live up to their political program. But the 2006 hoopla saw the Democrats get the House back on the back of promises of ending the war and getting the bastards impeached. And Pelosi was one of the loudest mouths on that score. Since then she's done absolutely nothing to that end and actually voted through several things that helps the war continue. It's fucking scandalous.
Exactly.

Then why say it, Andy.
I never said it.

Insinuated? How do you insinuate something on an internet forum. Was it his body language? Vinnie has never promoted police brutality. He has said that the 30 second clips you see on police chase shows or Youtube don't show the whole incident. That is true. You basically read what you want to. And you're not sort of supporting Martin, you are. Quit using transparencies to find some sort of fake neutrality. It's alright to have an opinion.
Okay, fine. I'm supporting Martin because I agree with him. Good point, Enron. Really adds a lot to the discussion..

And insinuate means suggest by hint. Vinni has suggested by hint time and time again that it's his opinion police brutality is not a problem. He's also come out to say flat out that the use of the taser is safe, which has been proven to be incorrect.

There isn't anything wrong with what Martin is saying here, Enron.



Well if you keep wanking on the guy's profession, expecting him to turn against his own. I would expect some kind of reaction.
Enron, you're a fucking retard.*

*Typical Vinman comeback when he doesn't agree with you.

What is the point of that? Martin never said all cops are "nigel beaters", never said Vinni was a bad police officer, and has always provided proof along with his arguments. Vinni said the use of a taser never caused permanent damage, which is obviously an incorrect opinion after looking at all the studies and links Martin posted. Score for Martin.

I've been following this feud for a while and Martin always brings up good points with facts. He's not hating upon an entire profession, but rather trying to make sense of the pitfalls of some bad policing techniques out there. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.


What do you mean by condemning yourself to a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what? You don't have to vote for your party. As a Democrat, I rarely vote straight party ticket. I did once in a local election. That's one of the great things about our system, no matter what party you're in you can vote for whoever you want. Hell I've voted third party a few times. So I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Okay, but what is the point of signing up for something you don't totally agree with? Why sign up for something you don't agree with, as in the whole primary electoral process where you vote isn't always equal to another's, or sometimes isn't even needed whatsoever.

People have blasted me time and time again for saying I was raised as a Catholic but don't agree with the Pope and other aspects of the religion. So they say I'm not a Catholic. Fine, I'm not. If you only agree with a party's stance on issues 60% of the time, what's the point of saying you're a Democrat? I'm not going to make the same mistake again.

I'd rather be neutral and not get involved with the usual political crap that plagues both of these parties. And besides, if I'm not going to be loyal to something, there is no point in signing up for it. See Martin's post, another good one.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,780
Duh, its electricity into your body. But its definitely safer than a gun. Rather than keeping this argument going I'm going to propose some rather crazy. How about you come up with a solution? People complain, complain, complain about bad situations in the world and no one ever says "Hey I disagree with this and here is a better way to go". So what do you propose cops use for non deadly force? Rubber bullets, pepper spray, stun guns, what? Then maybe we can get back to topic and start discussing the election again.
Don't say duh to Martin, say duh to Vinni, the person who continues to try and refute those facts.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
I never said it.
Um... that's not true. You said "Not all cops are angels, Enron". I said "I never said all cops were angels, Andy". You said "I know you don't think all cops are good, Enron". I said "Then why say it". If you already know that answer then why make the original statement?

Okay, fine. I'm supporting Martin because I agree with him. Good point, Enron. Really adds a lot to the discussion..
Um just letting you know you can come down off your horse and take sides.


And insinuate means suggest by hint. Vinni has suggested by hint time and time again that it's his opinion police brutality is not a problem. He's also come out to say flat out that the use of the taser is safe, which has been proven to be incorrect.
I know what the word means, Andy. Andy, Andy, Andy, and how does one hint to something with typing. I think your are just making assumptions. Vinnie said he was tased and according to him it is safe. So Martin found some statistics.
Ok, tasers aren't safe. Throw out an alternative, don't just try to prove someone wrong.





Enron, you're a fucking retard.*

*Typical Vinman comeback when he doesn't agree with you.

What is the point of that? Martin never said all cops are "nigel beaters", never said Vinni was a bad police officer, and has always provided proof along with his arguments. Vinni said the use of a taser never caused permanent damage, which is obviously an incorrect opinion after looking at all the studies and links Martin posted. Score for Martin.

I've been following this feud for a while and Martin always brings up good points with facts. He's not hating upon an entire profession, but rather trying to make sense of the pitfalls of some bad policing techniques out there. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
I'm going to ignore the retard comment. As you won't want to follow that up.

I don't think anyone knew tasers could be deadly. Including you. So what? Now we do. Thank you Martin, for the information. Five points to you. Except this isn't a competition where you try to defeat your opponent. It's a message board on the internet.

Martin isn't merely trying to make sense of bad policing pitfalls. If that were true he would have stated it from the beginning. Or started a separate thread. Instead he does what he's stated he feels should be done. Bust people's asses. You giving Martin the benefit of the doubt because he's a nice guy most of the time is as bad as you making assumptions about Vinnie because he's a hard ass most of the time.


Okay, but what is the point of signing up for something you don't totally agree with? Why sign up for something you don't agree with, as in the whole primary electoral process where you vote isn't always equal to another's, or sometimes isn't even needed whatsoever.

People have blasted me time and time again for saying I was raised as a Catholic but don't agree with the Pope and other aspects of the religion. So they say I'm not a Catholic. Fine, I'm not. If you only agree with a party's stance on issues 60% of the time, what's the point of saying you're a Democrat? I'm not going to make the same mistake again.

I'd rather be neutral and not get involved with the usual political crap that plagues both of these parties. And besides, if I'm not going to be loyal to something, there is no point in signing up for it. See Martin's post, another good one.
So you don't agree with the Pope yet you can be a Catholic? Ah sort of sounds like being a Democrat and not agreeing with all of the party's principles.

Look kid, I read Martin's post and I've heard it before. The angst over the broken down 2 party system and how it steals from the democratic process and forces people to sacrifice ideals and opinions in order to elect a leader. Yeah I've heard that before. I don't disagree. Yes the 2 party system does infringe on the democratic process, but unfortunately the only way to have a decent shot at gaining a major political office in this country is to run as a Democrat or a Republican. Of course it would be easy to claim neutrality and say "I'm too good for party politics". But I would hate myself if the perfect candidate came along and I couldn't help he or she on their way because my hands were tied during the primary election. If that makes me some sort of idiot then so be it. At least I'm trying to make a difference.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
Alright back on track. Anyone as concerned as me over the Super Delegates? Here is an article that explains them a little. What do you guys think?


Democrats fear superdelegates could overrule voters

(CNN) -- Some Democrats say they fear their party's method of picking a nominee might turn undemocratic as neither presidential candidate is likely to gather the delegates needed for the nomination.


The Democrats' superdelegate system is supposed to avoid turmoil at the party's conventions.

Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are running neck and neck toward the party's August convention in Denver, Colorado. Most projections show neither getting the necessary 2,025 delegates in the remaining nominating contests before then.

Party rules call for the votes of superdelegates -- 800 or so party officers, elected officials and activists -- to tip the balance. The party instituted the system to avoid the turmoil that a deadlocked race would create at a convention.

But even some superdelegates are questioning the system, as the party heads toward the conclusion of a race in which they might determine the outcome.

"It's not the most democratic way of doing things," said Maine superdelegate Sam Spencer. Watch the scenario for a "civil war" in the Democratic Party »

At least two organizations have launched petition drives to reflect how the vote went in primaries and caucuses.

MoveOn.org, which has endorsed Obama, is trying to get 200,000 signatures this week and plans to run an ad with its petition in USA Today. And Democracy for America, headed by Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean's brother Jim, said it will deliver signed petitions to all the superdelegates.

While pledged delegates are allocated with the understanding they'll vote the way their state went in its primary or caucus, superdelegates are free to vote however they want. And even if they pledge their support to a candidate, they're free to change at any time.

Clinton already has 234 superdelegates and Obama has 157. But Obama has a sizable lead in pledged delegates, 1,096 to 977, and is on a roll, having won all eight nominating contests since Super Tuesday.

If the superdelegates were to tip the balance against the popular vote, the turmoil would last long beyond the convention, longtime Democratic Party strategist Tad Devine said.

"If a perception develops that somehow this decision has been made not by voters participating in primaries or caucuses, but by politicians in some mythical backroom, I think that the public could react strongly against that," Devine said.

"The problem is [if] people perceive that voters have not made the decision -- instead, insiders have made the decision -- then all of these new people who are being attracted to the process, particularly the young people who are voting for the first time, will feel disenfranchised or in some way alienated," he said.

Superdelegates were established in 1982 to bring more moderate Democrats back to conventions, where their attendance had been dropping since the 1950s, and to relect the party's mainstream more accurately.

Don't Miss
Obama faces fire from Clinton, McCain
Five questions on superdelegates
Why delegates matter
In Depth: Election Center 2008
"[Superdelegates] are the keepers of the faith," said former San Francisco, California, Mayor Willie Brown. "You have superdelegates because this is the Democratic Party. You don't want the bleed-over from the Green Party, the independents and others in deciding who your nominee will be."

Devine was part of the first campaign to benefit from the roles of superdelegates -- that of former Vice President Walter Mondale in 1984.

Mondale's 1984 campaign went into the party convention with too few delegates to secure the nomination against the campaigns of former Sen. Gary Hart and Jesse Jackson. Mondale had received more votes, but Hart had won more states.

Mondale was able to line up the superdelegates going into the convention and avoid a fight on the convention floor.

Each campaign actively is trying to encourage the unpledged delegates to pledge to their side.

Jason Rae, a 21-year-old Wisconsin superdelegate, said he's gotten calls from former President Clinton and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright from Hillary Clinton's camp, and Obama's wife, Michelle, visited with him during a campaign stop Tuesday in Wisconsin.

Rae said he hasn't yet decided how he'll vote in Wisconsin's primary on Tuesday.

Crystal Strait, a party activist from California, said she's received calls from Clinton herself and daughter Chelsea but she remains uncommitted.

Massachusetts superdelegate John Walsh said he'll stay loyal to Obama despite the fact that the senator lost the primary in Walsh's state. So will fellow Massachusetts superdelegates Sens. Edward Kennedy and John Kerry.

Among Clinton's committed superdelegates are Harold Ickes Jr., her husband's former deputy chief of staff; Terry McAuliffe, who led her husband's 1996 re-election campaign and is chairman of her campaign; and her husband.

Whether those superdelegates stay committed to their candidates, even if it means tipping the outcome of the race against the pledged delegate lead or the popular vote, could split the party.

"It's in a total contradiction of the way the Democrats have set up their primary process, with all this proportional representation," said CNN political analyst Amy Holmes. "The whole point of it was that no one could walk away with the elites. And if this is decided by superdelegates, I think the Democratic Party morally is going to be looking at each other and say, 'What did we just do?' "



Devine said it could hurt the party in the general election.

"I think it will hurt us particularly because so many of the policies that we're saying we will pursue in government as Democrats are based on fairness, whether it's the tax policies that we advocate or the social programs we want to advance, there's a fairness component in all of that," he said. "People need to believe, I think, that our process is fair as well, if they want to believe that our policies will be fair."
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
How about you come up with a solution? People complain, complain, complain about bad situations in the world and no one ever says "Hey I disagree with this and here is a better way to go". So what do you propose cops use for non deadly force? Rubber bullets, pepper spray, stun guns, what? Then maybe we can get back to topic and start discussing the election again.
It's abuse of power plain and simple. From what I understand the taser was supposed to be the "safer" alternative to a gun. The non lethal yet powerful weapon. In cases where it is actually used that way, I agree it's an improvement. But it's a two edged sword. Since it appears to do no harm, and any harm inflicted is internal and not visible (and seems to be transient in any case), it's actually not entirely surprising that it's being used more liberally than guns are. On people who are not posing any kind of threat to the cop's personal security.

Solution? Indoctrinate everyone who gets one of these that it's just as serious as a gun and that if you abuse it you face the same consequences. And crack down on all the abuses. Deal?


On a sidebar, I have actually never made accusations to Vinman's integrity. (Well, aside to calling him a hypocrite just now.) I totally understand that he feels hurt when we're talking about police abusing their powers, because it's addressing a group he's part of. Nevertheless tasers are not the only thing going on, but even here people are dying from them and it's a serious issue.

When I get heated it's not because I was called a name (which is a trifle), but because pretty damn crucial things are at stake in the discussion and it doesn't seem to be moving in a healthy direction.


He's not hating upon an entire profession, but rather trying to make sense of the pitfalls of some bad policing techniques out there.
That sums it up pretty well. I do get incredulous and eventually heated when people make what are to me ridiculous statements upon being flashed these stories.

Martin isn't merely trying to make sense of bad policing pitfalls. If that were true he would have stated it from the beginning. Or started a separate thread. Instead he does what he's stated he feels should be done. Bust people's asses. You giving Martin the benefit of the doubt because he's a nice guy most of the time is as bad as you making assumptions about Vinnie because he's a hard ass most of the time.
Don't quite get where you're coming from, Enron. The police topic isn't new, we've been over that one a few times. "Where it all started" from what I recall was a qualifier Slovenia-Italy, there was a streaker on the pitch, he got handled pretty brutally by the cops, to which most people's reaction around here was pretty grim. Then along came Vin who as Andy stated not so much rubber stamped the intervention as he definitely didn't say he opposed it (there "insinuated" is not a bad word). Enter the "you don't know the whole story" and "you don't know what it's like to be a cop" arguments. That's as far back as I remember.

Surely it comes across quite clearly in my posts in this thread but I'm simply aghast at many of the stories that come out regularly. Did you hear the one about congressmen investigating spying in the NFL as some sort of serious issue whereas CIA spying records of course were lost without explanation? Or how about FISA to the effect that telecommunication companies that collude with the government to spy on people have retroactive immunity?

Really, do go and vote, I wish you the best of luck. I just doubt how much it is you can actually do about it.


Look kid, I read Martin's post and I've heard it before. The angst over the broken down 2 party system and how it steals from the democratic process and forces people to sacrifice ideals and opinions in order to elect a leader. Yeah I've heard that before. I don't disagree. Yes the 2 party system does infringe on the democratic process, but unfortunately the only way to have a decent shot at gaining a major political office in this country is to run as a Democrat or a Republican. Of course it would be easy to claim neutrality and say "I'm too good for party politics". But I would hate myself if the perfect candidate came along and I couldn't help he or she on their way because my hands were tied during the primary election. If that makes me some sort of idiot then so be it. At least I'm trying to make a difference.
In a sense, that's a little funny. You vote for the Democrats in 2006 because they say they're going to end the war and they do no such thing. You vote for the Republicans in 2000 because they "believe" in small government and the next thing you know it's the biggest government of all time, with the biggest budget deficit of all time. I might be pretty jaded, but that whole "making a difference thing", gee I'm not so sure you're actually able to. One can hope now with Obama, in fact so many people are hoping..
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,530
And I don't really see a reason to be in a political party. I'd rather not condemn myself to following a four-year regime of voting for the same party no matter what the circumstances, just like the brainwashed Republicans I know whom I hate. No sense in signing up for something you don't thoroughly believe in.
I've debated this for over 20 years. I never understood the point of political parties and found them to be about as useful as most organized religions.

But that's the key. People are social f*cks. We aggregate on Facebook or MySpace or Juventuz or whatnot. It's in our nature to socialize and to cling to affinity groups and clans to do that.

And then you look at countries where political parties grow like moles on Burke's ass: Greece, and even look at Italy after the Prodi coalition broke down recently. It's not a pretty sight what happens when coalitions can't conveniently be built and when governments can be destabilized by just one guy who comes to parliament one day with a bad case of 'rhoids.

The verdict is still out whether they help or harm. I'm still on the idea that they do both.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
But swag, a lot of countries have pretty stable political systems with some 5-10 parties in the public perception. It's not like it's a choice between 1, and 2, and 47.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,262
It's abuse of power plain and simple. From what I understand the taser was supposed to be the "safer" alternative to a gun. The non lethal yet powerful weapon. In cases where it is actually used that way, I agree it's an improvement. But it's a two edged sword. Since it appears to do no harm, and any harm inflicted is internal and not visible (and seems to be transient in any case), it's actually not entirely surprising that it's being used more liberally than guns are. On people who are not posing any kind of threat to the cop's personal security.

Solution? Indoctrinate everyone who gets one of these that it's just as serious as a gun and that if you abuse it you face the same consequences. And crack down on all the abuses. Deal?

Really, do go and vote, I wish you the best of luck. I just doubt how much it is you can actually do about it.

In a sense, that's a little funny. You vote for the Democrats in 2006 because they say they're going to end the war and they do no such thing. You vote for the Republicans in 2000 because they "believe" in small government and the next thing you know it's the biggest government of all time, with the biggest budget deficit of all time. I might be pretty jaded, but that whole "making a difference thing", gee I'm not so sure you're actually able to. One can hope now with Obama, in fact so many people are hoping..
The good cop, bad cop thing is settled as far as I am concerned.


If you want to keep at it, I'm sure Vinnie will help you out. I just see it as there are two sides to every story and if you know both sides then perhaps you can achieve the understanding you seem to wish for.

As far as party affiliation goes you say, I may be mistaken, it doesn't matter if you belong to a party or you don't because your votes ultimately don't count. If your vote doesn't count, then why vote? That is a crappy outlook. But hey that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. As for me, I'd rather vote in every election I can for the candidate I think is best, regardless of affiliation. Its all I can do. Apathy is not my way of life.
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
Taser was secondary to other factors such as drugs, heart conditions or mental illness.
see the word "secondary"...so if someone is high on drugs, or has a mental illness and they are out of control, how would you like us to stop them ?? How about a bullet between the eyes, that usually does the trick...and no doubt they die from that, unlike the taser

I've fought with people on pcp, and they have super human strength and feel no pain...how would you like me to deal with that Martin...seeing as you have so much experience in this field. Here's a hint, reasoning doesnt work

Okay, fine. I'm supporting Martin because I agree with him. Good point, Enron. Really adds a lot to the discussion..

And insinuate means suggest by hint. Vinni has suggested by hint time and time again that it's his opinion police brutality is not a problem. He's also come out to say flat out that the use of the taser is safe, which has been proven to be incorrect.

There isn't anything wrong with what Martin is saying here, Enron
Again, using a taser is a safer alternative to shooting someone, isnt it Beckster ??

And tell me where I said police brutality is acceptable...stop putting words in my mouth Martin....I mean Andy





Enron, you're a fucking retard.*

*Typical Vinman comeback when he doesn't agree with you.

What is the point of that? Martin never said all cops are "nigel beaters", never said Vinni was a bad police officer, and has always provided proof along with his arguments. Vinni said the use of a taser never caused permanent damage, which is obviously an incorrect opinion after looking at all the studies and links Martin posted. Score for Martin.

I've been following this feud for a while and Martin always brings up good points with facts. He's not hating upon an entire profession, but rather trying to make sense of the pitfalls of some bad policing techniques out there. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
Lets bring up the shit you call people when you disagree, hypocrite

so Martin brought up a few articles, big deal. There are thousands of other incidents where the use of the taser resulted in an arrest where no officers or defendants incured any injuries

When you switch your major from Meteorology to Medicine, and when you and Martin take the course that I had to take in order to carry a taser, and you actually get tased, then come talk to me. I dont pretend to know the weather or bicycles, so the both of you should leave the policing to the professionals like myself who know it



It's abuse of power plain and simple. From what I understand the taser was supposed to be the "safer" alternative to a gun. The non lethal yet powerful weapon. In cases where it is actually used that way, I agree it's an improvement. But it's a two edged sword. Since it appears to do no harm, and any harm inflicted is internal and not visible (and seems to be transient in any case), it's actually not entirely surprising that it's being used more liberally than guns are. On people who are not posing any kind of threat to the cop's personal security.

Solution? Indoctrinate everyone who gets one of these that it's just as serious as a gun and that if you abuse it you face the same consequences. And crack down on all the abuses. Deal?


On a sidebar, I have actually never made accusations to Vinman's integrity. (Well, aside to calling him a hypocrite just now.) I totally understand that he feels hurt when we're talking about police abusing their powers, because it's addressing a group he's part of. Nevertheless tasers are not the only thing going on, but even here people are dying from them and it's a serious issue.

When I get heated it's not because I was called a name (which is a trifle), but because pretty damn crucial things are at stake in the discussion and it doesn't seem to be moving in a healthy direction.




That sums it up pretty well. I do get incredulous and eventually heated when people make what are to me ridiculous statements upon being flashed these stories.



Don't quite get where you're coming from, Enron. The police topic isn't new, we've been over that one a few times. "Where it all started" from what I recall was a qualifier Slovenia-Italy, there was a streaker on the pitch, he got handled pretty brutally by the cops, to which most people's reaction around here was pretty grim. Then along came Vin who as Andy stated not so much rubber stamped the intervention as he definitely didn't say he opposed it (there "insinuated" is not a bad word). Enter the "you don't know the whole story" and "you don't know what it's like to be a cop" arguments. That's as far back as I remember.
We'll go round and round with this....and I am getting bored. The taser is an altenative to using deadly physical force, and for you to say that its overly used without knowing the situations is complete ignorance. You act as though we just run around and shoot people with it for fun...FALSE !!

For your information, they have a built in computer which records the date, time, and number of times fired. Then you have to fill out a report detailing the incident, and then my superiors have to determine whether it's use was warranted...so get this "the cops are cowboys with taser guns" out of your head...most of us are doing things right

And onto the Slovenia-Italy incident that virtually saw Nina1981 leave the forum, let me refresh your memory as to what I said. I agreed that the Italian Police has to take drastic measures to apprehend this guy, because here is this idiot on the field, and not you or I knew if he had a weapon, so they had to protect the innocent players on the field from being hurt. And even if this guy doesnt have a weapon, does he belong on the field in the first place, disrupting the game ??

I also said if that happened in the USA, then the guy would probably get a bit of a beating.....now tell me the last time you saw this happen at any of our sporting events, because our people understand the consequence of stepping onto the field.

I hate to burst your bubble, Martin, but sometimes reasoning with people is out of the question
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
Vin, you're being reasonable today. And like everyone else I'm bored of this anyway. If we never discussed things that really matter we'd be one big happy family in here. One can hope one hasn't alienated too many people.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,780
When you switch your major from Meteorology to Medicine, and when you and Martin take the course that I had to take in order to carry a taser, and you actually get tased, then come talk to me. I dont pretend to know the weather or bicycles, so the both of you should leave the policing to the professionals like myself who know it
You don't have to be a doctor to read and interpret a doctor's findings, Vinni.

I'll just leave it at that. This is going nowhere.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 10)