UCLA student tasered by police (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Natalia
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Even so, a trained police officer having a taser tested on him in a controlled environment, in a relaxed state of mind, is a completely different ball game to a student suddenly finding himself in a highly charged (if you'll excuse the pun) environment with police officers yelling in his face.
How would it have escalated into a mass melee if the officers had escorted him out of the building without using their tasers?
How would it have escalated into a mass melee if the officers had escorted him out of the building without using their tasers?
That is assuming the guy was going to comply before the whole taser incident. Which is possible, but debatable -- since it's the non-compliance which lead to the regulation use of a taser in this incident.
But the point was about having some subset of the mob of the surrounding students participate in the incident -- which is why the cops were telling people to back off. All it takes is one kid who is pissed off about a DUI, who hates cops, etc., to escalate a highly-charged situation into a multi-front "Blackhawk Down"-type of situation. (Believe me, I've been caught in the middle of enough demonstrations-turned-riots on Berkeley campus because some bored out-of-towner high school seniors looking for action with cops decide to start throwing rocks and stir sh*t up for everyone. It only takes a couple, and it happens all the time.) Mob mentality really can take over then, and then the safety of everyone in the room -- innocent and not-so-innocent bystanders -- is suddenly jeopardized.
But the point was about having some subset of the mob of the surrounding students participate in the incident -- which is why the cops were telling people to back off. All it takes is one kid who is pissed off about a DUI, who hates cops, etc., to escalate a highly-charged situation into a multi-front "Blackhawk Down"-type of situation. (Believe me, I've been caught in the middle of enough demonstrations-turned-riots on Berkeley campus because some bored out-of-towner high school seniors looking for action with cops decide to start throwing rocks and stir sh*t up for everyone. It only takes a couple, and it happens all the time.) Mob mentality really can take over then, and then the safety of everyone in the room -- innocent and not-so-innocent bystanders -- is suddenly jeopardized.
I'd hardly call the use of the taser 'regulation', since most reports (not to say that sensationalist journalism isn't one of the banes of the world) indicate that the student was prepared to leave until he was stopped by an office, then tased. He was, after all, standing at the exit of the library.
I see the point you're making, but then again, do you really think the crowd would have felt it necessary to get involved had the officers conducted a civil and orderly arrest?
As far as I can perceive, it seems like the only reason the students felt the need to become involved was because of the gross use of excess force given the circumstances.
I see the point you're making, but then again, do you really think the crowd would have felt it necessary to get involved had the officers conducted a civil and orderly arrest?
As far as I can perceive, it seems like the only reason the students felt the need to become involved was because of the gross use of excess force given the circumstances.
The use of the taser in situations where someone is being uncooperative is regulation. It was designed for the purpose of getting people to move who normally would not (basically, when you get right down to it, it's a cattle prod for humans to get people to move along).
But the question does remain whether the cops were a bit trigger-happy in brandishing it -- even if it is non-lethal force.
Certainly true. But any student who wanted to play civilian hero fighting for civil liberties and the protection of the public against police abuses would have most likely backfired in his/her goal. The personal threat to the officers in that situation would have escalated from brandishing a taser in a 3-on-1 against an unarmed suspect to needing to brandish their guns and call for backup in a potential mass melee.
Even if we presume the suspect was playing the crowd for dramatic effect in his resistance to the officers, the officers cannot assume that the public knows what they might know. To the onlooking students, they may think the suspect's life is being threatened and is suffering permanent harm even when it was not. So to that extent, the cops failed in recognizing that and potentially adding danger to the situation.
But the question does remain whether the cops were a bit trigger-happy in brandishing it -- even if it is non-lethal force.
Certainly true. But any student who wanted to play civilian hero fighting for civil liberties and the protection of the public against police abuses would have most likely backfired in his/her goal. The personal threat to the officers in that situation would have escalated from brandishing a taser in a 3-on-1 against an unarmed suspect to needing to brandish their guns and call for backup in a potential mass melee.
Even if we presume the suspect was playing the crowd for dramatic effect in his resistance to the officers, the officers cannot assume that the public knows what they might know. To the onlooking students, they may think the suspect's life is being threatened and is suffering permanent harm even when it was not. So to that extent, the cops failed in recognizing that and potentially adding danger to the situation.
I think we've both made our points in this discussion and understand each other, so I figured I'd throw this in the works:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines
The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.
UCLA police confirmed late Monday that the officer who fired the Taser gun was Terrence Duren, who has served in the university's Police Department for 18 years.
Duren, who was named officer of the year in 2001, also has been involved in several controversial incidents on campus.
In an interview with The Times on Monday night, Duren, 43, defended his record as a campus police officer and urged people to withhold judgment until the review of his Taser use is completed.
"I patrol this area the same way I would want someone to patrol the neighborhoods where I live," he said. "People make allegations against cops all the time. Saying one thing and proving it are two different things."
While he would not directly talk about why he used the Taser on the student, he said a videotape of any arrest doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.
"If someone is resisting, sometimes it's not going to look pretty taking someone into custody," he said. "If you have to use some force, it's not going to look pretty. That's the nature of this job."
A student's cellphone video of the incident has been broadcast around the world and focused much criticism on the officer.
But Duren — who was back on duty at the UCLA campus Monday night — said he can roll with these punches and wants to explain himself to students critical of his actions.
"In this line of business, you have to have a thick skin," he added. "I am proud of my service as a cop."
The incident occurred about 11 p.m. Nov. 14 in a library filled with students studying for midterm examinations.
Senior Mostafa Tabatabainejad, 23, was asked by Duren and other university police officers for his ID as part of a routine nightly procedure to make sure that everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there.
Authorities said Tabatabainejad refused repeated requests to provide identification or to leave. The officers decided to use the Taser to incapacitate Tabatabainejad after he went limp while they were escorting him out and after he urged other library patrons to join his resistance, according to the university's account.
The video shows portions of the incident, in which Tabatabainejad can be heard screaming in pain when the Taser shocks are administered.
The tape, which has been broadcast on the YouTube website and TV newscasts, prompted widespread criticism both on campus and from outsiders. On Friday, more than 200 students held a march to the police station, while acting Chancellor Norman Abrams tried to quell the critics by announcing an independent investigation of the Taser use. Abrams said UCLA had received numerous e-mails and calls from concerned alumni and parents.
Tabatabainejad's attorney, Stephen Yagman, said his client was shocked five times with the Taser after he refused to show his ID because he thought he was being singled out for his Middle Eastern appearance. Tabatabainejad is of Iranian descent but is a U.S. citizen by birth and a resident of Los Angeles.
Duren said Monday that he joined the UCLA police force after being fired from the Long Beach Police Department in the late 1980s. He said he was a probationary officer at the time and was let go because of poor report-writing skills and geographical knowledge.
In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity. Kente S. Scott alleged that Duren confronted him while he was walking on the street outside the Theta Xi fraternity house.
Scott sued the university, and according to court records, UCLA officials moved to have Duren dismissed from the police force. But after an independent administrative hearing, officials overturned the dismissal, suspending him for 90 days.
Duren on Monday disputed the allegations made by Scott.
In October 2003, Duren shot and wounded a homeless man he encountered in Kerckhoff Hall. Duren chased the man into a bathroom, where they struggled and he fired two shots.
The homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, was later convicted of assaulting an officer. Duren said Frasier had tried to grab his gun during the struggle. But Frazier's attorney, John Raphling, said his client was mentally ill and didn't do anything to provoke the shooting.
It remains unclear when the independent investigation of the Taser incident will be completed. It will be headed by Merrick Bobb, a veteran watchdog of both the Los Angeles Police and Los Angeles County Sheriff's departments.
UCLA police officials said in a short statement that Duren arrived at Powell Library with Officer Alexis Bicomong. Duren "discharged the Taser," the statement said. Officers Kevin Kilgore, Andrew Ikeda and Ricardo Bolanos, and Sgt. Philip Baguliao, a supervisor, were also at the scene.
"Let the independent watchdog run its course," Duren said.
The officer said that when the probe is complete, he'd like to sit down with students, particularly Muslim student groups, to explain his actions at the library.
"I have nothing to hide."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines
The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.
UCLA police confirmed late Monday that the officer who fired the Taser gun was Terrence Duren, who has served in the university's Police Department for 18 years.
Duren, who was named officer of the year in 2001, also has been involved in several controversial incidents on campus.
In an interview with The Times on Monday night, Duren, 43, defended his record as a campus police officer and urged people to withhold judgment until the review of his Taser use is completed.
"I patrol this area the same way I would want someone to patrol the neighborhoods where I live," he said. "People make allegations against cops all the time. Saying one thing and proving it are two different things."
While he would not directly talk about why he used the Taser on the student, he said a videotape of any arrest doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.
"If someone is resisting, sometimes it's not going to look pretty taking someone into custody," he said. "If you have to use some force, it's not going to look pretty. That's the nature of this job."
A student's cellphone video of the incident has been broadcast around the world and focused much criticism on the officer.
But Duren — who was back on duty at the UCLA campus Monday night — said he can roll with these punches and wants to explain himself to students critical of his actions.
"In this line of business, you have to have a thick skin," he added. "I am proud of my service as a cop."
The incident occurred about 11 p.m. Nov. 14 in a library filled with students studying for midterm examinations.
Senior Mostafa Tabatabainejad, 23, was asked by Duren and other university police officers for his ID as part of a routine nightly procedure to make sure that everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there.
Authorities said Tabatabainejad refused repeated requests to provide identification or to leave. The officers decided to use the Taser to incapacitate Tabatabainejad after he went limp while they were escorting him out and after he urged other library patrons to join his resistance, according to the university's account.
The video shows portions of the incident, in which Tabatabainejad can be heard screaming in pain when the Taser shocks are administered.
The tape, which has been broadcast on the YouTube website and TV newscasts, prompted widespread criticism both on campus and from outsiders. On Friday, more than 200 students held a march to the police station, while acting Chancellor Norman Abrams tried to quell the critics by announcing an independent investigation of the Taser use. Abrams said UCLA had received numerous e-mails and calls from concerned alumni and parents.
Tabatabainejad's attorney, Stephen Yagman, said his client was shocked five times with the Taser after he refused to show his ID because he thought he was being singled out for his Middle Eastern appearance. Tabatabainejad is of Iranian descent but is a U.S. citizen by birth and a resident of Los Angeles.
Duren said Monday that he joined the UCLA police force after being fired from the Long Beach Police Department in the late 1980s. He said he was a probationary officer at the time and was let go because of poor report-writing skills and geographical knowledge.
In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity. Kente S. Scott alleged that Duren confronted him while he was walking on the street outside the Theta Xi fraternity house.
Scott sued the university, and according to court records, UCLA officials moved to have Duren dismissed from the police force. But after an independent administrative hearing, officials overturned the dismissal, suspending him for 90 days.
Duren on Monday disputed the allegations made by Scott.
In October 2003, Duren shot and wounded a homeless man he encountered in Kerckhoff Hall. Duren chased the man into a bathroom, where they struggled and he fired two shots.
The homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, was later convicted of assaulting an officer. Duren said Frasier had tried to grab his gun during the struggle. But Frazier's attorney, John Raphling, said his client was mentally ill and didn't do anything to provoke the shooting.
It remains unclear when the independent investigation of the Taser incident will be completed. It will be headed by Merrick Bobb, a veteran watchdog of both the Los Angeles Police and Los Angeles County Sheriff's departments.
UCLA police officials said in a short statement that Duren arrived at Powell Library with Officer Alexis Bicomong. Duren "discharged the Taser," the statement said. Officers Kevin Kilgore, Andrew Ikeda and Ricardo Bolanos, and Sgt. Philip Baguliao, a supervisor, were also at the scene.
"Let the independent watchdog run its course," Duren said.
The officer said that when the probe is complete, he'd like to sit down with students, particularly Muslim student groups, to explain his actions at the library.
"I have nothing to hide."
92 year old woman killed in her own house by cops, another exemplary case of the police's good judgement:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Amazing what people can get away with.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Amazing what people can get away with.
I think you have to call into question anybody with a record -- even if the public tends to hold authority figures like cops, priests, and mayors to different standards of infallibility than themselves.
But you do realize that you're latching on to only one side of the events in this example. A UCLA frat boy accuses him of choking him with a nightstick -- and how many of us have been involved with drunken frat boys who needed choking as restraint? A homeless man is shot, though he is later found guilty of assault.
Of course, I'm a notorious centrist when it comes to two differing views on an issue. And as a matter of practice, I often like to take up the contrarian view when everyone seems so convinced otherwise -- and are quick to take up arms on a presumed cause. (The ACLU works both ways, for example.)
Thankfully the legal system provides some measure against lynching and mob mentality. Because it sounds like we have two guilty parties in this incident. A cop with run-ins who does not recognize his limitations, and a student who used a missing ID card as an opportunity to grandstand against the Patriot Act.
But you do realize that you're latching on to only one side of the events in this example. A UCLA frat boy accuses him of choking him with a nightstick -- and how many of us have been involved with drunken frat boys who needed choking as restraint? A homeless man is shot, though he is later found guilty of assault.
Of course, I'm a notorious centrist when it comes to two differing views on an issue. And as a matter of practice, I often like to take up the contrarian view when everyone seems so convinced otherwise -- and are quick to take up arms on a presumed cause. (The ACLU works both ways, for example.)
Thankfully the legal system provides some measure against lynching and mob mentality. Because it sounds like we have two guilty parties in this incident. A cop with run-ins who does not recognize his limitations, and a student who used a missing ID card as an opportunity to grandstand against the Patriot Act.
I think it's more than what he said once. He had an audience and, IMO, it sounds like he willfully let the situation escalate as a public incident to gain the attention of those around him. It would explain why he repeatedly refused to move, why he was adamant of complying in any way, and how he possibly could have played up the psychological terror of the taser shocks to maximum effect for the audience.
None of us were there, of course. But I have my suspicions.
None of us were there, of course. But I have my suspicions.