UCLA student tasered by police (4 Viewers)

[Martin]

Seems to me that the greatest objection here is over the use of the taser, and whether the taser, and its application, constitutes a humane use of non-lethal force or not. That seems to be the heart of the issue here.:

That is very much the point, yes. It doesn't take much googling either to find that certain doctors have said using tazers can threaten people's lives and indeed some number of people have died as an effect of that. But aside from that, just the very fact that it's physical abuse is significant enough to strongly object. It would be a different situation if the guy was somehow threatening them with a weapon or presented some sort of threat.

But I suppose that because a guy refuses to leave a building without identification and I believe he should be removed instead of coddled, and because I believe a cop should try to keep the surrounding crowd calm and uninvolved in a hostile situation, that makes me a sadist?... :confused2:

I have no objections to removing him from the room. Like you said, they could have cuffed him and dragged him out, noone would say anything. But instead they basically torture the guy by tazing him five times in the course of 6 minutes or whatever it was. And he's crying in pain, that does not bother you?

 

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[swag]

So I coincidentally talked to my brother a little while ago on the phone to catch up on something else, and so I brought up the subject. He had a pretty balanced view on the taser thing.

For one, they are used on violent suspects, which this guy was not to what we can see. They can be used on non-violent people who resist moving or arrest, which this looks like the case, but that's still somewhat controversial. For now, it is considered a legal and recommended part of the enforcement code.

As for the suspicion that a person who is tasered cannot get up and walk on their own, that's a load of crap. Tasers basically apply a shock for about 5 seconds and their effects wear off immediately once the voltage stops. You should be able to walk around as if nothing happened to you. The immediate removal of any effects of the taser is one of the reasons it is most often used as a non-lethal weapon. Pepper spray takes about 40 seconds or so to wear off. And unlike a club, a dog, or some other means of force as was standard operating procedure in the past, a taser is far more humane and leaves no after effects (... save maybe in some edge cases where someone has a heart condition, etc., as you bring up).

People volunteer to be tasered all the time in demonstrations. An alternative method to get someone to comply in moving on their own is to apply something briefly painful at pressure points -- such as sticking a thumb on a person's neck in the right place, etc. Basically, the idea is to apply a form of momentary pain to get the person to comply in movement. Twisting arms, etc., is the same.

Apparently, dragging the person is considered more harmful for both the back of the dragger and the involuntary friction and banging around of the dragee -- which is why that is generally not used under the circumstances.

From what it sounds, his cries of pain seem to be a bit of an exaggeration in comparison to what pain a taser really inflicts -- but then, I haven't tried a taser myself and don't really plan to. (Though I have been hit by rubber bullets when caught in a crowd dispersion cross-fire at a Berkeley protest -- it sounds like I would have preferred an accidental taser.) And yes, his cries of pain do bother me. But from what it sounds, I would have every reason to believe that a belligerent guy who refuses to move with an audience of people around him might do everything possible to exaggerate his circumstances. Not saying he wasn't in pain, but I am suggesting there's a high likelihood some dramatic acting was in effect to elicit the responses that you and I had.

 

[Martin]

Thanks for the information, it throws a new light on the case.

I find it hard to believe that he was faking the pain and the crying, but maybe he responded to it more sensitively than most people or something.

 

[swag]

I absolutely hate to be some hardened, jaded person about someone in pain. But I've also been suckered by play-acting made to make a point.

Not that we ever see that in football matches, of course.

 

[Jem83]

Thanks for the information, it throws a new light on the case.

I find it hard to believe that he was faking the pain and the crying, but maybe he responded to it more sensitively than most people or something.

He's probably not used to feeling what he felt at the time so he got scared. Subconciously, the police are perceived by him as tyrants, perhaps even someone who tries to kill him. Our subconscious works in extreme ways like this. Anyway, I don't think he's in a vast amount of physical pain from the tazing, it's just a combination of 1) anger at the fact that they enforce this on him (because he hates them and wants them to leave him alone) and 2) that he's frightened and finally 3) that there are a lot of people around and that he wants to turn their attention toward the events.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

try reading the comments of the youtube crowd

 

[Jem83]

try reading the comments of the youtube crowd

are you talkin' to me?

 

[Seven]

The Bystander Effect (also known as bystander apathy) is a psychological phenomenon in which someone is less likely to intervene in an emergency situation when others are present than when he is alone.


This is really sad... what makes it worse is the idiots who comment on the video saying "the idiot deserved it. All he had to do was stand up". I'd like to see how quickly they can get up after being tazed

I'm aware of the bystander effect, but I think it would have the opposite effect to me. If I saw someone being beaten up, I would try to intervene exactly because there is a crowd that is likely to back me up once they see I've taken some action.

 

[Elvin]

Stand up stand up stand up

He said it like what, million times?

Welcome to Robotland

 

[Seven]

About the incident: I don't think we know enough about the circumstances to judge. I'm bound to say I don't like police violence, but maybe it was indeed necessary.

 

[gray]

About the incident: I don't think we know enough about the circumstances to judge. I'm bound to say I don't like police violence, but maybe it was indeed necessary.

Necessary? Necessary it definitely wasn't. One might argue that it was justifiable or 'deserved', but we're talking about a student here (please, I don't buy the argument that maybe he was a gunman intent on shooting up the place), not an armed and dangerous person who was compromising the safety of the officers or anyone in the vicinity.

As for the suspicion that a person who is tasered cannot get up and walk on their own, that's a load of crap. Tasers basically apply a shock for about 5 seconds and their effects wear off immediately once the voltage stops. You should be able to walk around as if nothing happened to you. The immediate removal of any effects of the taser is one of the reasons it is most often used as a non-lethal

From Wikipedia:

According to the many sources, a shock of half a second duration will cause intense pain and muscle contractions startling most people greatly. Two to three seconds will often cause the subject to become dazed and drop to the ground, and over three seconds will usually completely disorient and drop an attacker for at least several minutes and possibly for up to fifteen minutes.


Now I don't recall how many seconds this student was tazed for (and I've no intention of watching the video again to find out), but after it happened to him 5 or 6 times, it's a little unrealistic to expect him to be able to stand up right away. It's not just the physical effects the tazer would have had on him either; the potential emotional trauma of suddenly finding oneself in such a situation shouldn't be underestimated by anyone.

a taser is far more humane and leaves no after effects (... save maybe in some edge cases where someone has a heart condition, etc., as you bring up).

Didn't the student in question mention that he had a medical condition?

From what it sounds, his cries of pain seem to be a bit of an exaggeration in comparison to what pain a taser really inflicts

Be that as it may, is it really up to the officers to decide "oh, he's just exaggerating. let's zap him again" ?


I think a lot can be determined from the actions of the police officers. The officers continually threaten to taze students who ask for their name and badge numbers, and once again at the end of the video, an officer tells a student to get back of "you'll get tazed too [sic]". These are clearly not officers whose best interests are to "serve and protect", but a bunch of wankers who let power get to their heads.

I'm certainly interested in hearing what Vinman has to say about all this.

 

[Ahmed]

Stand up stand up stand up

He said it like what, million times?

Welcome to Robotland

yea tht was pretty annoying...

 

[Layce Erayce]

the guy was being a an obstructionist jackass.

Thats the one justification people use when they say "he got what was coming to him".

But was his obstructionist jackassery deserving of what he recieved?

I can be an obstructionist jackass at times when dealing with friends, family members and authorities. Maybe its because Im "rebellious", or "lazy", or "having a bad day" or "bored and wishing to fuck with someone".

Or maybe its because Im not a grovelling peasant who likes to be scared shitless by authority. I like to believe that there is present a balance between law enforcement and individual liberties that is expected in any democratic, functional law-governed society, including a college campus if need be.

Even when law enforcement needs to evacuate someone unwilling to cooperate, wouldnt you rather have them dragged out against their will, spinal damage and all?

Watching the movie and reading the articles, it sounds very much like an abuse of power to me, as they were more interested in asserting their domination over a victim than ensuring computer lab users comply with standing regulations.

 

[swag]

I'm aware of the bystander effect, but I think it would have the opposite effect to me. If I saw someone being beaten up, I would try to intervene exactly because there is a crowd that is likely to back me up once they see I've taken some action.

You are one hell of a maverick there, Seven. Escalate the confrontation by taking three officers using a taser on a perp and turn it into more of a mass melee/multi-casualty incident where the cops are forced to go into anti-riot mode because you've decided that you know more than they do about how tasers work and what the perp is in for.

Brilliant.

 

[swag]

Now I don't recall how many seconds this student was tazed for (and I've no intention of watching the video again to find out), but after it happened to him 5 or 6 times, it's a little unrealistic to expect him to be able to stand up right away.

Well, either police training is completely wrong where Wikipedia has it correct. I may be a fan of Wikipedia, but something tells me it may not be the authority on the subject in this case. The standard protocol/conventional wisdom used is that the harmful effect of tasers wears off immediately -- and that the standard procedure (at least what I hear in California) is about 5 seconds per shock.

Perhaps the conventional wisdom and standard protocol are completely wrong here. But I would be a bit surprised if that were the case, knowing how much of a litigious society we in California live in. Police protocols and policies try to avoid lawsuits. Not encourage them.

Be that as it may, is it really up to the officers to decide "oh, he's just exaggerating. let's zap him again" ?

I would expect that officers using a taser at least have used it before, if not also on themselves for demonstration purposes (which is often the case I hear from my brother). So I would hope -- though it's certainly no guarantee -- that they would be in a better position to assess the situation than college kids in a library or people at home watching YouTube videos.

Though it's certainly not like I haven't been disappointed before...

I think a lot can be determined from the actions of the police officers. The officers continually threaten to taze students who ask for their name and badge numbers, and once again at the end of the video, an officer tells a student to get back of "you'll get tazed too [sic]". These are clearly not officers whose best interests are to "serve and protect", but a bunch of wankers who let power get to their heads.

I'm certainly interested in hearing what Vinman has to say about all this.

I'm interested to hear what Vinman says too. But I can totally understand where the officers are coming from in that situation. You do not want an incident involving three officers and an uncooperative person to escalate into some mass melee where a crowd of onlookers decides to join in the fray like it's some kind of bar fight. That's worse for the public safety of everyone involved on just about every level I can think of.

 

[swag]

I can be an obstructionist jackass at times when dealing with friends, family members and authorities. Maybe its because Im "rebellious", or "lazy", or "having a bad day" or "bored and wishing to fuck with someone".

If I didn't know you, and you decided to walk into my house, sit on the floor, and refuse to leave, I think it would be totally rational to apply some kind of force with no harmful after-effects to get you to finally leave.

 

[Seven]

You are one hell of a maverick there, Seven. Escalate the confrontation by taking three officers using a taser on a perp and turn it into more of a mass melee/multi-casualty incident where the cops are forced to go into anti-riot mode because you've decided that you know more than they do about how tasers work and what the perp is in for.

Brilliant.

I was assuming the action would have been just of course .

 

[swag]

I was assuming the action would have been just of course .

Well, if it was, you had better hope that all your fellow geeks in the library are armed with some pretty hefty laptops.

 

[Layce Erayce]

If I didn't know you, and you decided to walk into my house, sit on the floor, and refuse to leave, I think it would be totally rational to apply some kind of force with no harmful after-effects to get you to finally leave.

Well, if its your house, its belongs to you and nobody else.

This guy is paying his tuition fees, which are

a) Funding this computer lab that he is using.
b) Going into the taycheck of the UCPD officers who tasered him

 

[swag]

Well, if its your house, its belongs to you and nobody else.

This guy is paying his tuition fees, which are

a) Funding this computer lab that he is using.
b) Going into the taycheck of the UCPD officers who tasered him

I guess the police are expected to be clairvoyant. Why bother issuing student IDs at all then, I suppose...