The NHL Thread (5 Viewers)

CR 7

The D.I.L.F
Sep 16, 2003
29,799
Brodeur the GOAT? Lol no

Roy, Hasek, Plante, Sawchuk all over Brodeur

Look, I love St. Patrick, and I personally think that Dryden is the GOAT for gaolies, but don't pass Brodeur off as being some cheap knockoff. There is a legit argument that can be made for him being the GOAT.

But like I said, to me Dryden is the greatest goalie of all time. Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, 5 Vezina trophies out of 7 full seasons played. Yeah, he be the GOAT.

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Dude also sat out a year to get his law degree. If that isn't Boss, I don't know what is

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I know that you guys are probably looking at Dryden's stats for those 7 full seasons, which are fucking ridiculous by the way. But I can tell you as someone who watched him on TV in the latter 2 years of his career, he was even better than those statistics.
 
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Lapa

FLY, EAGLES FLY
Sep 29, 2008
17,165
Look, I love St. Patrick, and I personally think that Dryden is the GOAT for gaolies, but don't pass Brodeur off as being some cheap knockoff. There is a legit argument that can be made for him being the GOAT.

But like I said, to me Dryden is the greatest goalie of all time. Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, 5 Vezina trophies out of 7 full seasons played. Yeah, he be the GOAT.

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Dude also sat out a year to get his law degree. If that isn't Boss, I don't know what is

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I know that you guys are probably looking at Dryden's stats for those 7 full seasons, which are fucking ridiculous by the way. But I can tell you as someone who watched him on TV in the latter 2 years of his career, he was even better than those statistics.
Dryden? Must have been playing in AHL, never even heard of him before.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Fuck that shit. Brodeur is THE GOAT, nobody can deny that.

But Hextall is the one I miss the most. That guy was pure entertainment.
:lol:

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-5-greatest-goaltenders-in-nhl-history/

Hockey writers/pundits almost entirely rate both Hasek and Roy over Brodeur on all-time lists.

Brodeur played almost his entire career in the lowest scoring era of modern hockey, with some of the best defensemen, and one of the most defensive teams in nhl history (originated the trap) a team that allowed very few good scoring chances.

Roy played the first several years of his career in the free-scoring 80s and early 90s that Brodeur missed entirely, for a team that played nowhere near as defensive-oriented hockey, and still ended up with the same career save percentage.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Look, I love St. Patrick, and I personally think that Dryden is the GOAT for gaolies, but don't pass Brodeur off as being some cheap knockoff. There is a legit argument that can be made for him being the GOAT.

But like I said, to me Dryden is the greatest goalie of all time. Conn Smythe winner as a rookie, 5 Vezina trophies out of 7 full seasons played. Yeah, he be the GOAT.

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Dude also sat out a year to get his law degree. If that isn't Boss, I don't know what is

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I know that you guys are probably looking at Dryden's stats for those 7 full seasons, which are fucking ridiculous by the way. But I can tell you as someone who watched him on TV in the latter 2 years of his career, he was even better than those statistics.
Dryden was amazing. My pa talks about him lots. I've watched a number of his games too. Longevity is the knock on him. But as far as prime goes, Hasek and Dryden are at the top in terms of sheer concentrated dominance over several years.

Bobby Orr and Ken Dryden. Too bad the two of them didn't play full careers.
 

CR 7

The D.I.L.F
Sep 16, 2003
29,799
Dryden was amazing. My pa talks about him lots. I've watched a number of his games too. Longevity is the knock on him. But as far as prime goes, Hasek and Dryden are at the top in terms of sheer concentrated dominance over several years.

Bobby Orr and Ken Dryden. Too bad the two of them didn't play fully careers.
Orr was robbed due to his injuries. Still the GOAT of all time for me, regardless of position. Singlehandedly revolutionized the game. Dryden retired because he wanted to concentrate on being a lawyer.

Dryden is like Sandy Koufax. The prime wasn't as long as others who played 20 years, but man, their primes were beyond legendary.

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And yes, I said it.

Bobby Orr is the greatest hockey player of all time.

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His last healthy season, at the age of 26, he had 135 points. That is not a typo. And he was a +80
 
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Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Orr was robbed due to his injuries. Still the GOAT of all time for me, regardless of position. Singlehandedly revolutionized the game. Dryden retired because he wanted to concentrate on being a lawyer.

Dryden is like Sandy Koufax. The prime wasn't as long as others who played 20 years, but man, their primes were beyond legendary.
Yeah. Gretzky and Orr for me. Orr revolutionized the game, as did Gretzky later. Gretzky's and Orr's sheer dominance over their peers for about 12 years for Gretzky and 8 years for Orr was insane.

My Pa grew up in Brantford, played up to junior B hockey there. 6-7 years older than Gretzky. Said he saw him play occasionally as a kid when he was a teen.

Orr was +124 in 70-71 dude. Just insane.
 

CR 7

The D.I.L.F
Sep 16, 2003
29,799
There have been 14 seasons where a defenseman has had a 100 point season.

Bobby Orr has 6 of them :lol:

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If I were to ever buy a Bruins Jersey, it would be #4, out of the ultimate respect I have for him.

I met him at a book signing, and told him I thought he was the greatest ever, but that I was a Canadiens fan.

The son of a bitch ratted me out :lol:
 
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Pegi

Junior Member
Feb 22, 2019
109
:lol:

https://thehockeywriters.com/the-5-greatest-goaltenders-in-nhl-history/

Hockey writers/pundits almost entirely rate both Hasek and Roy over Brodeur on all-time lists.

Brodeur played almost his entire career in the lowest scoring era of modern hockey, with some of the best defensemen, and one of the most defensive teams in nhl history (originated the trap) a team that allowed very few good scoring chances.

Roy played the first several years of his career in the free-scoring 80s and early 90s that Brodeur missed entirely, for a team that played nowhere near as defensive-oriented hockey, and still ended up with the same career save percentage.
Does it matter if Brodeur playing in the low scoring era? Or you mean that he benefits from it somehow? He actually suffered for playing in a defensive team, atleast SV% wise. There's a stat which has Brodeur, Hasek and Roy all facing shots, below 18 shots, 18-23, 24-29, 30-34 and +35, Brodeur and Hasek being literally equal in those areas. Highest SV% in order: 30-34, +35, 24-29, 18-23 and below 18 being the lowest. Both had below 89% when facing 18 shots or under, and 93% something when facing 30-34 so in fact, you actually benefit from the shot volume and this is a fact. i think Hasek has averaged 3 or 4 shots faced per game through his career, which mostly explains the difference in SV%. Also, all the vezinas and individual awards are mostly based on SV%, so in fact Hasek benefitted by facing higher amount of shots, unlike you would suggest that Brodeur benefitted for playing for a defensive team. That's between Brodeur and Hasek, i can't remember how it was for Roy but those shot volumes worked for every single Goaltender in the whole league literally, especially when we are talking about world class goalies. I can give couple examples from the couple top goaltenders we've had past decade, Luongo being other and Ryan Miller being other. Both played for bottom teams, both faced tons of shots and their numbers were their best ever, for playing those bottom teams(i.e Panthers and Sabres). They moved to better teams, Luongo going to Canucks and Miller moving to St.Louis and their numbers dropped, just because the shot volumes dropped. There's countless of examples from that and trust me, i'v been part of these dicussions for a long time and im not just pulling these things from my hat, they're based on facts. Once again, shot volume is the most important stat for a goalie as far it comes to SV% and once SV% is the stat most of the people are looking at, it becomes the most significant thing to have a good numbers, a.k.a being considered for an individual trophies.

Hasek was one of the greatest of all time, but as being explained above, most of his individual trophies and legacy, is based on the fact that he played for a "good" team which allowed great amount of shots, so it made him look like unbeatable force. And guess what? When he left sabres to Detroit, his SV% dropped instatly and know why? because the number of the shots he faced dropped as well. Then when he went to Senators after that stint, his numbers went up again, just because he faced higher amount of shots and was once again considered for a vezina etc. He has 389 wins if i remember correctly, that's 300 less than Brodeur has. he has something like 80 shutouts, that's 45 less than Brodeur has. Hasek doesn't top Brodeur on anything else but SV%, but even that i'v explained you above that Hasek and Brodeur are equal when facing same amount of shots, but because Brodeur faced 3-4 shots less than Hasek through his career, that explains the difference in that manner.

Alot can be said about Roy. He's 3 time Conn smythe winner and his legacy is most known in the playoffs. He definitely tops Hasek, but falls short on Brodeur. Records are records, they're the things that nobody has done before, or since and once you've done something like that, it ain't nothing but a sign of greatness. Brodeur owns 2nd most records straight after Gretzky, which once again proves how good of a career he had. 691 wins and 125 shutouts are about 20% more than the second place, would like to know where's that big of a cap between 1st and 2nd in terms of records, there cannot be that many sports and gretzky probably has alot of them.

Brodeur is definitely the GOAT, atleast when it comes to past 30 years and the goalies before it, nothing but respect for them.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Definitely the GOAT? According to you. It’s an opinion.

Again, most hockey writers and pundits disagree. He played in the lowest scoring era, for the best defensive team, a team that they changed the rules of hockey for to get rid of their defensive system. But it’s okay, keep arguing that it actually hindered him lol

And save percentage on fewer shots entirely depends on the quality of shots. The Devils allowed far fewer high quality scoring chances than the Canadiens or Avalanche did for Roy or Sabres did for Hasek.

Hasek at Detroit? Dude was at the end of his career then. Of course his save % dropped lol

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And goalies had terrible save %s in the 80s and early 90s when Roy started his career, even while facing huge numbers of shots because the scoring chance quality was so high. Teams hardly played defense.
 
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Pegi

Junior Member
Feb 22, 2019
109
Definitely the GOAT? According to you. It’s an opinion.

Again, most hockey writers and pundits disagree. He played in the lowest scoring era, for the best defensive team, a team that they changed the rules of hockey for to get rid of their defensive system. But it’s okay, keep arguing that it actually hindered him lol

And save percentage on fewer shots entirely depends on the quality of shots. The Devils allowed far fewer high quality scoring chances than the Canadiens or Avalanche did for Roy or Sabres did for Hasek.

Hasek at Detroit? Dude was at the end of his career then. Of course his save % dropped lol

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And goalies had terrible save %s in the 80s and early 90s when Roy started his career, even while facing huge numbers of shots because the scoring chance quality was so high. Teams hardly played defense.
Hasek played 2001-2002 and 2003-2004 for the Red wings, had 91.5% and 90.7%, then when he went to Sens for 2005-2006, he had 92.5% and then he went back to Red wings and had 91.3%. So, between all those seasons, that Sens year was easily the highest save %, even he was older there than 2 previous seasons in Detroit.

Quality of shots or not, as i said Hasek and Brodeur are equal when facing the same amount of shots. Devils didn't allow many scoring chances, but didn't have much of those "bump your stats" shots either. Brodeur for example recorded his best seasons stat wise when Niedermayer and Stevens were gone, explain that to me? he had way worse team, way worse defense but faced way more shots and suddenly his stats went up, Coincidence? i don't think so. That 2006-2007 season when Brodeur recorded 48 wins, something like 12 shutouts with 92.2% etc without Niedermayer and Stevens, 7 players recorded 100 points or more, so it wasn't "low scoring" era anymore, yet Brodeur still benefitted from the low scoring era? Season before it, nobody had more than 94 points and Brodeur had just above 91%, coincidence? It's all about shot volumes, Hasek has proved it, Brodeur has proved it and so has almost all the goaltenders. I don't know why we are even discussing about this, it's a fact and there's stats supporting that so let's not waste our times for that whole shot volume thing, because it does simply exists, whether you want to believe or not.

I don't care what hockey pundits or hockey writers are saying, they are not aware of these things. If im looking who won the most vezinas, who won the most harts etc as a goalie, it's hasek and i can look at those things and say, hey he was the best ever but once you bring the facts there, with why he managed to win those things it becomes whole different discussion. Those are voting based things, i don't need to vote who has the most wins or who has the most shutouts, it's black on white - simple as that.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Yeah. Wins and shutouts completely take into account who had the better teams in front of them. :lol:

Brodeur never had to play on teams as mediocre as Hasek’s Sabres or led teams as average as Roy’s Canadiens to a Stanley cup championship. Simple as that.
 

Pegi

Junior Member
Feb 22, 2019
109
Yeah. Wins and shutouts completely take into account who had the better teams in front of them. :lol:

Brodeur never had to play on teams as mediocre as Hasek’s Sabres or led teams as average as Roy’s Canadiens to a Stanley cup championship. Simple as that.
Except Brodeur staying in same club pretty much whole career of his, means 20 years of not leaving the sinking ship, like Roy and Hasek did for example. If he actually switched clubs like they did, im pretty sure he would have way better numbers, as teams just doesn't stay on absolute top for 20 years straight.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Cuz that's a winning argument. :baus:

He didn't leave New Jersey. Yeah. Because they had one of, if not, the best GM in hockey for his entire time there. Better numbers lol. Sure thing bud. Brodeur played his entire prime in an organization that had hall of fame GM Lou Lamoriello keeping it at the very top. And he won his cups with hall of fame coaches like Jacques Lemaire and Pat Burns, and Habs legend Larry Robinson.

Roy won his cups with nobodies on the bench like Jean Perron, Jacques Demers, Marc Crawford, Bob Hartley. lol
 

Pegi

Junior Member
Feb 22, 2019
109
Cuz that's a winning argument. :baus:

He didn't leave New Jersey. Yeah. Because they had one of, if not, the best GM in hockey for his entire time there. Better numbers lol. Sure thing bud. Brodeur played his entire prime in an organization that had hall of fame GM Lou Lamoriello keeping it at the very top. And he won his cups with hall of fame coaches like Jacques Lemaire and Pat Burns, and Habs legend Larry Robinson.

Roy won his cups with nobodies on the bench like Jean Perron, Jacques Demers, Marc Crawford, Bob Hartley. lol
Oh, now it's because of the GM or the coach, let me guess next it's all about the equipment? Brad Lukowich, Johnny Oduya, Jim Fahey, Alex Brooks,Colin White, Brian Rafalski, David Hale, that's the hall of fame defense we are talking about right after lockout and Brodeur still wln 48 games that year. Most of them being on their rookie years, thanks to Lamoriello? It wasn't always easy and the fact is that right after Brodeur turned into 40yr old and started to decline, so did the devils and they have made playoffs once since, which again proves that the most important piece of that puzzle was between the pipes, not on the bench or on the stands, which again can be proved by taking a look into that statue outside of prudential center.

Roy won 2 of his cups in Avs and calling them underdogs? Hartley as a coach, but roster filled with future hall of famers, even Bourque came to there to win a stanley cup. Had Rob Blake as well, Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Foote, Deadmarsh, Hejduk, Drury and co with Roy in net etc. Even Kariya and Selanne went there at one point to win a cup, come on.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
27,466
Yeah, almost retired Bourque a real selling point. And Selanne and Kariya were there for one year, lol, after Roy retired, and pretty clearly didn't win a cup. Plus talking about Tanguay, Drury, Foote, and Deadmarsh as something special :lol:

Good rubbish. :baus:

The most important records:

Roy - 3 Conn Smythe (only player with 3, only player to win it with two different teams)
Brodeur - 0 Conn Smythe

https://thehockeywriters.com/exposing-martin-brodeur-the-nhls-most-overrated-goalie/

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Brodeur only played with hall of famers like Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer for all 3 of his cup wins, and others for one or two... Mogilny, Nieuwendyk, Fetisov, Elias, Lemieux, Daneyko, etc. Such scrubs.
 
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