Syrian civil war (2 Viewers)

[zebrettino]

I meant more in terms of what he did with Turkey's economy, and how he gradually moved Turkey away from what I call radical secularism.

As for Turkey taking a step back in terms of human rights and democracy, I don't think that is true in general, overall I would definitely not say that Turkey is less free or less democratic than it used to be before the AKP. The media's bias I imagine would stem mostly from the fact that actions taken by a prime minister who is perceived to be an Islamist would be viewed more negatively than the same actions if they were taken by someone who's perceived as a secularist. That's my interpretation at least.

Although that being said, some of the things the AKP government did, and the way they dealt with protests for example would probably be unacceptable when held against Western standards, and rightfully so, governments should always be held to the highest standards possible, but overall I wouldn't agree that Turkey is worse off as a whole in terms of human rights and democracy than it was prior to 2002 even though you feel the western media would like to paint it that way.

I also think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the differing Islamist ideologies in western media, it's lazy intellectually to lump all Islamist leaning ideologies under one umbrella. Kao Ray's suggestion that Erdogan's support for radical militant jihadist groups is in any way even remotely linked to ideology is an absolutely preposterous one IMO, yet it's an idea I've seen bandied around in media freely and very commonly.

Can you define "radical secularism" please?

 

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[icemaη]

They must be feigning ignorance of the process at this point, and relying on the stupidity of the average joe to believe such nonsense. It's an 18-24 month process, that's ridiculously rigorous and thorough. But American politicians are making it sound like a 6 week process.

It took me 9 months to get a business visa, while generally it takes a few minutes. (Probably because I've two Mohammed's in my name ). I work for an American company where almost everyone has a business visa and has been getting one is considered a formality. If getting a visa is this tough, I can only imagine how much more rigorous the refugee screening process must be. Getting the director of the FBI to sign off each and every refugee application is so fucking ridiculous. Might as well ask Donald Trump to sign off each and every one.

 

[kao_ray]

His support for fundamentalist groups, his son's actions etc: Look at my post right above yours, I clearly admit that he has supported those groups, the whole crux of my argument, is that his support for those groups has nothing at all to do with ideology and everything to do with alignment of interests. Exactly like the support of Carter and Reagan for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan(where al Qaeda originated from) , and to illustrate with an example from the middle east, exactly like the support of the secular Baathist regime in Syria of the Islamist Hamas prior to 2011. Do you consider Carter and Reagan to be sympathizers of militant salafist ideology? or Bashar to be a sympathizer of Sunni Islamist militant group linked with the brotherhood*.

*If you're not familiar with Syria's modern history, google Hama events(1982) during his father's time to see why that is as impossible as Reagan being a Jihadist sympathizer.

Thanks for the answer, I really appreciate it.

On the other hand I completely disagree with your example with Reagan and to some extent about secular Baathist regime in Syria. The reason is the following. It looks like Erdogan is trying to bring more religion in secular life.

http://www.turkeyanalyst.org/publications/turkey-analyst-articles/item/437-the-islamization-of-turkey-erdo%C4%9Fan%E2%80%99s-education-reforms.html

The Islamization of Turkey: Erdoğan’s Education Reforms

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/12/26/erdogan-launches-sunni-islamist-revival-turkish-schools-292237.html

Erdogan Launches Sunni Islamist Revival in Turkish Schools

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/cengiz-produce-religious-generations-erdogan-akp-islamist.html#

Erdogan's reforms meant to educate 'pious generation'

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/uk-turkey-education-idUKBRE82T12D20120330

Turkey passes school reform law critics view as Islamic

http://www.timesofisrael.com/erdogans-turkey-less-nationalism-more-islam/

Erdogan’s Turkey: Less nationalism, more Islam


Combine that with his attempts to use religious militant groups to annex territories from northwestern Syria is scary. It is obvious that in his view religion has to play a far bigger role than just a foreign policy tool.

 

[Hængebøffer]

@Hængebøffer can we get a Fred related one-liner please?

first i thought i was gonna reply myself, but i didn‘t know where to start.

...also western media totally messed up my brain with
their biased stories. sorry for being lazy intellectually.

Most terrorists are educated middle class/upper middle class people like Fred.

 

[Post Ironic]

Most terrorists are educated middle class/upper middle class people like Fred.

@Fred has never done a day's honest labour in his life. White-collar smooth hands, that rich boy.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Most terrorists are educated middle class/upper middle class people like Fred.

Or like you

 

[Hængebøffer]

Or like you

I'm not educated - try again.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I'm not educated - try again.

You don't have a college degree?

 

[Eddy]

@kao_ray You forgot the latest one which is Erdogan putting out arrests for Cumhuriyet journalists for publishing footage seeming to show the state intelligence agency helping to send weapons to Syria.

Most terrorists are educated middle class/upper middle class people like Fred.

Nice troll

 

[Hængebøffer]

It's true, though.

 

[JuveJay]

Looks like the UK government will get their bill passed to launch air strikes in Syria. Oh well, at least the RAF have Brimstone.

 

[Hængebøffer]

Looks like the UK government will get their bill passed to launch air strikes in Syria. Oh well, at least the RAF have Brimstone.

It's sad that we haven't learned from WW2.
Wait.....

 

[Zacheryah]

Good, UK and Russians planes are used to meet eachother

 

[DAiDEViL]

our planes don't even fly i suppose @lgorTudor

them 500 years old tornados

 

[Nenz]

The UK Parliament approved air strikes in Iraq only. Restraint for the sake of restraint. It's inevitable that they'll have another vote to expand their operations into Syria sooner or later.

 

[kao_ray]

our planes don't even fly i suppose @lgorTudor

them 500 years old tornados

 

[JuveJay]

That's what I'm saying, the debate will end with a vote after 10pm today on whether that will be expanded to Syria. It's expected to go ahead, even most of the Labour MPs are agreeing to it. Corbyn is getting wrecked by his own party but this was always going to happen.

Cameron's comments that people who voted no were "terrorist sympathisers" were quite sickening, however. The mask slipped there.

 

[icemaη]

That's what I'm saying, the debate will end with a vote after 10pm today on whether that will be expanded to Syria. It's expected to go ahead, even most of the Labour MPs are agreeing to it. Corbyn is getting wrecked by his own party but this was always going to happen.

Cameron's comments that people who voted no were "terrorist sympathisers" were quite sickening, however. The mask slipped there.

Can't expect anything less from a pig head fucker.

 

[Nenz]

That's what I'm saying, the debate will end with a vote after 10pm today on whether that will be expanded to Syria. It's expected to go ahead, even most of the Labour MPs are agreeing to it. Corbyn is getting wrecked by his own party but this was always going to happen.

Cameron's comments that people who voted no were "terrorist sympathisers" were quite sickening, however. The mask slipped there.

Watching Labour fall apart under Corbyn is intriguing from a neutral point of view. With virtually no support from his MP's and emphatic support from Labour's constituency, the party is basically fucked for the foreseeable future.

 

[Zacheryah]

Why does the UK even has to go bombing in syria ?