Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (63 Viewers)

[Tomice]

So basically your words confirm that the reason for war has nothing to do with NATO whatsoever. You basically argue that it had an effect on the timing of the war, but even that Im not sure I agree with, I think Putins timing is much more dictated by internal processes rather than external.

Basically yes, though if NATO membership would have been off the table from the start then I'm arguing that this might have been a more limited confrontation in it's nature with much less loss of life.
We discussed it before, I disagree that this war has anything to do with internal considerations. I think Putin is much more popular then people give him credit, he is an extension of the people and Russians culture, not an opponent of it.
I could be wrong or giving them too much credit, but looking at how unprepared the army was this reeks of a desperate action before it's to late.

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lol no

I know many people who lived in both

 

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[Goodfella]

People can live on grains, nettle and water if it comes to that. People are not going to risk their necks for instagram and nike.

 

[Elvin]

People can live on grains, nettle and water if it comes to that. People are not going to risk their necks for instagram and nike.

by that logic the USSR should have never collapsed.

 

[Tomice]

NATO never promised anything to Ukraine, stop spreading Russian propaganda, Jesus Christ

https://www.wionews.com/world/west-...kraine-eu-foreign-policy-chief-borrell-461270

You are just proving that what I said about you was true

 

[Goodfella]

by that logic the USSR should have never collapsed.

What made USSR collapse though? Because laymen wanted to watch VHS tapes and listen to metalica?

Russian federation will also collapse, but bigger players have to organize and lead mutiny. You average Ivan is not going to do shit.

 

[Elvin]

What made USSR collapse though? Because laymen wanted to watch VHS tapes and listen to metalica?

Russian federation will also collapse, but bigger players have to organize and lead mutiny. You average Ivan is not going to do shit.

Yes. Hard to believe but it's exactly the reason.

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

https://www.wionews.com/world/west-...kraine-eu-foreign-policy-chief-borrell-461270

You are just proving that what I said about you was true

You are incredibly dumb - he's talking about that time in 2000s, when they were thinking about it, since 2014 UKRAINE HAD NO CHANCE TO JOIN NATO, COUNTRY WITH TERRITORIAL DEPUTIES CANT BECOME A MEMBER OF NATO, that's why Russian government pays for Abkhazia, Prednistrovie, South Ossetia, LNR and DNR, fucking hell, fucking Putin's apologists what a dumb idiots.
If Ukraine become a part of NATO then it would mean that NATO forces will have to send its troops to fight against LNR and DNR and its the same story with Georgia and Moldova, how can people be this dumb jesus fucking christ
That's what he was talking about and it was in 2008
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.

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Why Ukraine had no chance to join nato after 2014
“States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.”

 

[Tomice]

You are incredibly dumb - he's talking about that time in 2000s, when they were thinking about it, since 2014 UKRAINE HAD NO CHANCE TO JOIN NATO, COUNTRY WITH TERRITORIAL DEPUTIES CANT BECOME A MEMBER OF NATO, that's why Russian government pays for Abkhazia, Prednistrovie, South Ossetia, LNR and DNR, fucking hell, fucking Putin's apologists what a dumb idiots

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If Ukraine become a part of NATO then it would mean that NATO forces will have to send its troops to fight against LNR and DNR and its the same story with Georgia and Moldova, how can people be this dumb jesus fucking christ

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That's what he was talking about and it was in 2008
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.

From June, 2021

We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course free from outside interference. The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for NATO membership

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm

And you said never, which evidently isnt true.

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm

2008!!!!!! Putin invaded Georgia in august of 2008 and then Ukraine in 2014 when his muppet president Yanukovich fled the country!

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western putin's apologists and nato blamers are fucking morons i swear

 

[Tomice]

2008!!!!!! Putin invaded Georgia right after it and then Ukraine when his muppet president Yanukovich fled the country!

I add the date in my post cause I know you would miss it, it's from 2021

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

I add the date in my post cause I know you would miss it, it's from 2021

“States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.”

 

[Tomice]

“States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.”

I know, NATO are contradicting themselves, crazy ha?

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

I know, NATO are contradicting themselves, crazy ha?

14. We reiterate our support for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, Georgia, and the Republic of Moldova within their internationally recognised borders. In accordance with its international commitments, we call on Russia to withdraw the forces it has stationed in all three countries without their consent. We strongly condemn and will not recognise Russia’s illegal and illegitimate annexation of Crimea, and denounce its temporary occupation.

 

[Tomice]

14. We reiterate our support for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, Georgia, and the Republic of Moldova within their internationally recognised borders. In accordance with its international commitments, we call on Russia to withdraw the forces it has stationed in all three countries without their consent. We strongly condemn and will not recognise Russia’s illegal and illegitimate annexation of Crimea, and denounce its temporary occupation.

How is this relevant?

 

[U Picciriddu]

What made USSR collapse though? Because laymen wanted to watch VHS tapes and listen to metalica?

Russian federation will also collapse, but bigger players have to organize and lead mutiny. You average Ivan is not going to do shit.

Anti-communist sentiment and the fact that most countries in former USSR dont identify as Russian/Soviet if im not mistaken.

 

[radekas]

Because laymen wanted to watch VHS tapes and listen to metalica?
.

I mean, the proof is right there on youtube .



The Ivans, Sashkas and Grigorijs have been waiting for the good shit for decades.

 

[Vlad]

It's not my narrative. it's theirs (maybe). Putin wasn't in charge back then and he regards that as one of the greatest mistakes in Russian history post the USSR.

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they did and are but we weren't talking about it.

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I don't think they worry about NATO attacking them.
It's not about being afraid from NATO aggression, it's about Ukraine joining will deny them the option of doing what they are doing now. So they acted before

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Fair point. agree, I think he possibly does.

I'm saying it could possibly would have played out differently if NATO offer was of the table from the beginning (as it should have been cause it was never a realistic option). I think it deprived Ukraine of the ability to make more independent decisions to an extant in how to deal with Russia.
I also do think Ukraine could have prepared even better for this if they didn't have some vague faith in NATO, again its only my opinion but I think they thought NATO will help them much more then they eventually did.

https://www.wionews.com/world/west-...kraine-eu-foreign-policy-chief-borrell-461270

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I think it's a fair argument but I disagree, I don't think he does it for internal reasons and I don't think he has any fear for his regime.

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It's a saying, not a literal statement

I disagree but to each his own. Time will tell I guess. I think his fear of his people is precisely the reason he returned back to power back in 2012. Ofc Medvedev was a puppet but he proved to be incapable of keeping people in line. Therefore snow revolution, organized protests against regime and election process between 2011-2013.

Whoever would replace Putin needs to offer him guarantees that he wont go after him and that he will be able to keep masses in submission. In the meantime to keep people obedient inventing foreign threat serves the purpose. He laundered dozens of billions through Swiss and Panama banks, lawyers... This ought to be investigated at one point unless another 'Putin' replaces him.

 

[campionesidd]

are you really fucking gonna compare the quality of life in 2022 compared to 30-40 years ago? There was no globalization with all of its perks. Internet, free travel, global brands is pretty much a necessity too, once you're used to them.

It's one thing to never have something, it's another thing to enjoy everything the world has to offer then have it brutally taken from you because of one man. If a significant enough number of Muscovites believe that removing this regime will mean back to the good days they will rise.

The only way Putin gets overthrown is if the oligarchs or the armed forces get fed up with him. There will be no Maidan revolution a La Ukraine.

 

[Tomice]

The only way Putin gets overthrown is if the oligarchs or the armed forces get fed up with him. There will be no Maidan revolution a La Ukraine.

Maybe not the army cause Putin and the FSB have been neutering them for the past 20 years exactly out of this fear.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Maybe not the army cause Putin and the FSB have been neutering them for the past 20 years exactly out of this fear.

Probably, but there is still some merit to the old, trusted Russian method of "throw bodies at something until it gives up."