Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (80 Viewers)

[campionesidd]

The reasons for Russia invasion doesn't keep changing, they existed before they decided to invade and discussing what those reasons might be is not justifying them.

The only reasons mentioned before the war started were NATO expansion and deNazification which were terrible reasons to begin with. Then they kept adding nonsense like biolabs, Ukrainian nuclear weapons, preventing genocide, and pre-emptive Ukrainian attacks on Belarus. Did you not read any of this?

 

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[Tomice]

The Kremlin itself and their media puppets are the ones changing their justification on a weekly, sometimes daily basis.

The reasons exist objectively/independently to whatever comes out of Russian media/Kremlin. that's the propaganda part

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The only reasons mentioned before the war started were NATO expansion and deNazification which were terrible reasons to begin with. Then they kept adding nonsense like biolabs, Ukrainian nuclear weapons, preventing genocide, and pre-emptive Ukrainian attacks on Belarus. Did you not read any of this?

I did. What did you expect them to say? that they think Ukraine must be part of the Russians empire? that Ukrainians are not distinct people? of course they will throw out every other reason they can think of and sees what sticks, that was my point about information overload

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It’s dismissed because it’s the product of an autocracy that has zero interest in truth, criminalizes dissenting voices, allows no independent media, and lies non-stop. They propagandize everything they need to, so there is no possibility or worth in sifting through all that shift to find the occasional grain of truth. I can get those grains of truth from independent western media sources. Do I need the Kremlin to tell me about the Iraq war or Afghanistan (lol)? I’ve heard about endless criticism about these things while they were going on from our own media. I don’t need to hear about them now used as justification for invading a sovereign democratic nation. Everything out of Russia is propaganda. It’s really that simple

I'm saying some dismiss everything as propaganda if it does not align with their opinion/side, even when it has nothing to do with it. People here get triggered by an opinion on the energy situation in Europe if it's not a total profit for Europe lol
And again I don't see anyone here justify invading Ukraine beside maybe Lancelot and you know I'm not defending him so who exactly are you talking about?

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

The Kremlin itself and their media puppets are the ones changing their justification on a weekly, sometimes daily basis.

On 3rd day of the war Putin have been asking Ukrainian generals to remove Zelensky and other "junkies"

 

[Post Ironic]

The reasons exist objectively/independently to whatever comes out of Russian media/Kremlin. that's the propaganda part

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I did. What did you expect them to say? that they think Ukraine must be part of the Russians empire? that Ukrainians are not distinct people? of course they will throw out every other reason they can think of and sees what sticks, that was my point about information overload

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I'm saying some dismiss everything as propaganda if it does not align with their opinion/side, even when it has nothing to do with it. People here get triggered by an opinion on the energy situation in Europe if it's not a total profit for Europe lol
And again I don't see anyone here justify invading Ukraine beside maybe Lancelot and you know I'm not defending him so who exactly are you talking about?

Saying “what about” this thing NATO did, or what about ‘murica and its wars is obviously indirectly justifying this. Or at the very least excusing on the level of “why should anyone be outraged by Russia invading Ukraine because ‘Murica invaded Iraq 20 years ago.” And I’ve seen that from every single Serb and a few others here. At some point if you keep bringing up this whataboutism you are excusing and justifying.

To clarify, I don’t think you are doing this yourself.

 

[Ronn]

Im not saying the enconomy wont be thrown back to the stone age or that pepole wont suffer. Im saying the basic sustain needs of the country to function will be met, imo

This. If Iran, a very dry country with one dimensional economy could survive Russia will too.

 

[Juventino[RUS]]

This. If Iran, a very dry country with one dimensional economy could survive Russia will too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droug...famine_in_Tatarstan)_and_Ukraine.?wprov=sfla1

 

[Ronn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The_early_1920s_saw_a,famine_in_Tatarstan)_and_Ukraine.?wprov=sfla1

I’m not sure what the point of this link was.

 

[Tomice]

Saying “what about” this thing NATO did, or what about ‘murica and its wars is obviously indirectly justifying this. Or at the very least excusing on the level of “why should anyone be outraged by Russia invading Ukraine because ‘Murica invaded Iraq 20 years ago.” And I’ve seen that from every single Serb and a few others here. At some point if you keep bringing up this whataboutism you are excusing and justifying.

To clarify, I don’t think you are doing this yourself.

No I know, I get your point. Maybe my tolerance level is just different, or I'm trolling a bit

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I think the sine qua non for any serious discussion here is the admission that this invasion is inexcusable and morally unjustifiable, no ifs or buts. The moment anyone tries to wiggle out of that they ought to be rebuked. We can all sit here and discuss who did what and why on a pragmatical level. But the mere mention of nato, for exemple, is to me an attempt at justification. This has nothing to do with nato, nothing to do with the west. This is a regional bully who trained with juve then tried to flex his muscles only to end up at j medical.

 

[campionesidd]

This is terrifying. And people wonder why all of Russia’s neighbors want to join NATO.

Added another source so that no can say it’s the Ukraine subreddit, so of course they’ll say this bruh…..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ml?ico=amp-comments-viewall#comments-10668961

And a Swedish source @Osman

https://www.tv4.se/artikel/6cNV5sPA...estyckade-ryska-plan-kraenkte-svenskt-luftrum

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

This is terrifying. And people wonder why all of Russia’s neighbors want to join NATO.

Added another source so that no can say it’s the Ukraine subreddit, so of course they’ll say this bruh…..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ml?ico=amp-comments-viewall#comments-10668961

And a Swedish source @Osman

https://www.tv4.se/artikel/6cNV5sPA...estyckade-ryska-plan-kraenkte-svenskt-luftrum

The United States made them do it, Biden is trying to force them into a war to sate NATO's bloodlust.

Poor innocent, free Russia.

 

[Tomice]

I think the sine qua non for any serious discussion here is the admission that this invasion is inexcusable and morally unjustifiable, no ifs or buts. The moment anyone tries to wiggle out of that they ought to be rebuked. We can all sit here and discuss who did what and why on a pragmatical level. But the mere mention of nato, for exemple, is to me an attempt at justification. This has nothing to do with nato, nothing to do with the west. This is a regional bully who trained with juve then tried to flex his muscles only to end up at j medical.

I agree with the first part but don't think I can with the bold.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a simplistic view, it certainly isn't the only option but you are categorically denying the notion that this war happened because NATO promised Ukraine it could join and Russia didn't want to wait for it to happen.

What in your mind is Russia reason then? Pure imperialistic desire? Unipolar world? we know it ain't the nazis

 

[kappa96]

Serbs and Hungarians retards

Their window for them to make a change(freedom, democracy) is also closing. For Serbia they are almost there(spiraling towards autocracy) , yet Hungary are still kept up by the EU even if Orban wins again.
Kick Hungary out of the EU and they are probably going to become just like Russia.
So is Serbia.

 

[kappa96]

Have you seen how many people don't believe me when i say that American MAGA imbeciles and Russian pro-Putinists have a lot in common? Adequate Americans should be happy that the political system of their country (with all its problems) will never allow a psychopath like Trump to rule forever.

Almost all Putin apologist have 3 things in common.
They are trump supporters, antivax and anti globalization conspiracy nuts.
You can somewhat add to that nationalistic and religious zealots.

Saw a commentary on Facebook (a Romanian ) that left me perplexed. It said because Mr Putin was fighting against the international cabal(whatever the hell that is), he is entitled to do anything, including killing civilians, because he has the average citizen best interests in mind.
Even my aunt is spreading Russian propaganda, about how the west has fallen, how great Russia is and NATO bad, yet when she run out of money and opportunities in Romania, guess where she found work. In decadent England. She didn't run to Russia.
The definition of a useful idiot.
The sad thing is you can't reason with this idiots. Mostly lack critical thinking.

 

[Strickland]

The reasons for Russia invasion doesn't keep changing, they existed before they decided to invade and discussing what those reasons might be is not justifying them.

discussing reasons is not justifying them, true. but eating up all the Russian propaganda bullshit and arguing the same lines as Putin and Lavrov and Lukasenko does seem strange though, at one point are you no longer "not a Putin apologist" if you happen to agree with him daily?

 

[s4tch]

I agree with the first part but don't think I can with the bold.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a simplistic view, it certainly isn't the only option but you are categorically denying the notion that this war happened because NATO promised Ukraine it could join and Russia didn't want to wait for it to happen.

What in your mind is Russia reason then? Pure imperialistic desire? Unipolar world? we know it ain't the nazis

why did russia do nothing when the baltic countries joined the nato in '04? according to your narrative, they had all the reason to attack those 3 countries before they've been added.

 

[campionesidd]

I agree with the first part but don't think I can with the bold.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a simplistic view, it certainly isn't the only option but you are categorically denying the notion that this war happened because NATO promised Ukraine it could join and Russia didn't want to wait for it to happen.

What in your mind is Russia reason then? Pure imperialistic desire? Unipolar world? we know it ain't the nazis

If we are talking about broken treaties, Russia broke the Budapest memorandum when they annexed Crimea In 2014, and are in violation of it ever since.

 

[Strickland]

I agree with the first part but don't think I can with the bold.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a simplistic view, it certainly isn't the only option but you are categorically denying the notion that this war happened because NATO promised Ukraine it could join and Russia didn't want to wait for it to happen.

What in your mind is Russia reason then? Pure imperialistic desire? Unipolar world? we know it ain't the nazis

Why would there necessarily be a war later on when UA joins NATO? I dont think the West plan to conquer Russia even if they have another Russia adjacent country joining.

 

[Kopanja]

If we are talking about broken treaties, Russia broke the Budapest memorandum when they annexed Crimea In 2014, and are in violation of it ever since.

Russia broke a lot of bilateral treaties with Ukraine, Budapest memorandum gets a lot of attention because it has significant 3rd parties in it, but there is a huge pile of Ukraine-Russian treaties that Russia had broken. But it's all doesn't matter of course, because "NATO encroaches".

That aside, another great thread on the main current Russian cult and how it was weaponized

 

[Elvin]

This. If Iran, a very dry country with one dimensional economy could survive Russia will too.

again for the millionth time: there is a huge difference between countries that have never really lived a good life brought via globalization and then there's Moscow. The Iran/N.Korea's idea of surviving is very different to modern Russia/Moscow's.

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I agree with the first part but don't think I can with the bold.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a simplistic view, it certainly isn't the only option but you are categorically denying the notion that this war happened because NATO promised Ukraine it could join and Russia didn't want to wait for it to happen.

What in your mind is Russia reason then? Pure imperialistic desire? Unipolar world? we know it ain't the nazis

This first and foremost. Plus, Putin not willing to have a potentially thriving democracy of a closest ethno-linguistic neighbor -- would raise way too many complaints and questions for him domestically.