Renovation time... (3 Viewers)

[Lo-Pan]

When delneri realized that he considered lanzafame not even worth a proper roll of the dice, Martinez couldn't play as a traditional attacking and defending, touchline hugging winger, and pepe could...do little else other than try hard, he opted to change the formation to a awkward 4-3-3. This move, aligned with a ridiculously heavy demand upon DP to roll back the years and become a highly mobile left wing forward, basically killed our left flank. De ceglie was doing OK there, before his injury, but thats the first time i have seen him play consistently OK in his whole juve career. Masrchisio was never asked to play LW. Always bunching up in the middle with melo and aqui. So...as aquilani was deployed as a deep lying playmaker, we had hardly any short distance connectivity between midfield and attack, hardly anyone to actually take the ball forward. The right flank was fucked through accepting that krasic was far more a right wing forward, than a traditional right winger, so space appeared constantly between him and motta/sorensen...the sorensen move at least unearthed a real gem, but he is a natural centreback, so naturally bunches up in the centre to form a 3...which had to be done really, as with grosso, there is no LB..but taking away the support behind krasic, meant he had to come deeper to get the ball. in effect, we had little offensive thrust, of people actually capable of carrying the ball, beating men, anywhere in midfield.

delneri could have done better. Played to our strengths more...but he didnt seem to be doing too badly when we had quag fit, because quag's intelligence of movement is often world class, he covers so much ground, very hard to mark or track. Also, his passing is high quality. Once he had died, we were static in attack until matri appeared. DP did brilliantly, but...he is 63 years old now.

Bearing in mind we have only aqui, who may leave, and then melo, who are capable of driving forward, and playing decent balls to the offence, i welcome pirlo with open arms. at 32 he still has a couple of years of world class distrubution in his feet and mind. All we need to do is get some players who are comfortable on the ball, with clever movement, and ideally FBs of a far better quality than what we have, and wingers who can beat their man.

Ziegle is a massive improvement over de ceglie and grosso. We definitely need a right back.
then a LW...so far, i'm happy with marotta's moves.

And yet, i thought i read him saying that conte would be confirmed last week, but he wasn't??? or must they wait until after siena's last game?

my main source of excitement, is this: marotta mentioned that we may not get bastos because of his present non-eu status. Bastos is of a fine quality, yet is obviously of a lesser quality than a deal likely in place already, for a non-eu signing of a far greater quality...who could that be eh???

 

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[Bjerknes]

the inaptitude of the buzzers at the back... the stronghold of the storm shed back four; must be improved upon for the club to return to greatness. thus, marotta shall instinctively prowl the market amidst great competition for steller improvements. gate keepers such as Isla, Cassani... perhaps even Howedes? hohohohoho, I shall not hold my own dearest breath... ho ho ho ho...

 

[Showdown25]

oh fuck

 

[ALC]

 

[swag]

Oh cuck.

 

[Lo-Pan]

:ahmed:brilliant posts as always, lads...keep up the good work

 

[swag]

You'll have to pardon me for thinking you snatched Cronios' body, Lo-Pan.

 

[Lo-Pan]

You'll have to pardon me for thinking you snatched Cronios' body, Lo-Pan.

I like Cronius. He is one of very few members who I generally agree with, and who also writes 100% about juve, rather than involving himself in the virtual ball-licking and sycophantic horrorshow that spoils so many threads on here. I should take a leaf out of his book on such a stance really. But as for his analysis, its generally accurate and rooted in facts, which to some seem horribly depressing...to me it does. ANd after the excitement I have been allowing to build slowly, I am not sinking back into reality. He is right to suggest that the continuation of the same mistake cycle seems likely. But i still have hope!

I see zeigle as a definite improvement upon what we have at LB. Grosso can go, of course, and de ceglie can fight for his spot. competition is healthy. And both of those players are young enough to improve still. Optimistic...but why not eh? As for pirlo, I wouldn't go as far as to say, at least right now, that I prefer him to aquilani, but he is a better, more consistent passer of the ball. And we are crying out for people comfortable on the ball. Nobody knows how much say Conte has in the transfer strategy, but surely when he spoke to marrota about the job, he was told of Pirlo and zeigle. He likely also suggested some players, or at least gave his opinion, on other players that marotta had suggested. Conte seems far too brimming with fierce self assurance, to take on the job when he is totally against the purchases we are making.

 

[swag]

I like Cronois too. Don't get me wrong at all. But the trouble is that every post of his requires a binding.

I know that we can criticize the online world as a medium for encouraging short attention spans and devaluing critical thinking. It is perhaps responsible for killing much of the art of rational debate. There's a reason why Twitter limits things to 140 characters.

But there's a value in editing too. And editing for online leans more to the short form so you get your point across quickly and succinctly, rather than making each post a manifesto of sorts. Once in a while, and surely to kick off a thread, those manifestos are necessary. But when they become the norm of discussion -- that's not a discussion. I do not have conversations with my friends that require them to pause for 10 minutes as I rattle off 6 paragraphs of my carefully constructed thinking.

These forums are largely conversational. And that leans towards the give-and-take of shorter exchanges. When long form dominates the contributions to those exchanges, the system appears broken... as if we were to meet on the street and each back-and-forth verse between us were chapters of Geoffrey Chaucer.

 

[Lo-Pan]

I like Cronois too. Don't get me wrong at all. But the trouble is that every post of his requires a binding.

I know that we can criticize the online world as a medium for encouraging short attention spans and devaluing critical thinking. It is perhaps responsible for killing much of the art of rational debate. There's a reason why Twitter limits things to 140 characters.

But there's a value in editing too. And editing for online leans more to the short form so you get your point across quickly and succinctly, rather than making each post a manifesto of sorts. Once in a while, and surely to kick off a thread, those manifestos are necessary. But when they become the norm of discussion -- that's not a discussion. I do not have conversations with my friends that require them to pause for 10 minutes as I rattle off 6 paragraphs of my carefully constructed thinking.

These forums are largely conversational. And that leans towards the give-and-take of shorter exchanges. When long form dominates the contributions to those exchanges, the system appears broken... as if we were to meet on the street and each back-and-forth verse between us were chapters of Geoffrey Chaucer.

well put, mate...and an interesting read. Although I wasn't directly criticizing the encouragement of short attention spans, as I have no problem reading short posts about juventus matters. That is fine, and I am glad that for example, melo doesn't take 50 lines to tell us we are linked with Aguero, or that Mark doesn't need 100 lines to explain 'MOVE FOR DZEKO IS DEAD'. Its the high % of idiotic posts which bother me. And virtual backslapping. Schoolyard cliques of ignorant, arrogant scum masquerading as juve supporters...the members who are apparently ubiquitous, watching EVERY single league, continuously, never missing a beat. I remember a while back, as a prime example, a lengthy post I made, which was 100% about juve, met with comments that surely only a 12 year old, or adult retard would find funny...then the creme de la creme...'hahahahhaha look!!! he is friends with cron...hahahahhahahahahahah'...mindless moron masses, which shouldnt surprise me, as i find humanity overflowing with an increasing % of mindless morons.

Yes..i should try not to let it bother me so greivously. And cheers for the post, its something I haven't pondered before.

 

[swag]

Good on you, mate.

Sorry for the occasional inane chit chat around here largely to amuse myself.

 

[Bjerknes]

Cron isn't a bad guy. He keeps posting his own opinions and keeping on track despite a large portion of the forum berating him every chance they get. He deserves credit for that.

 

[JCK]

He's also always right.

 

[Bjerknes]

Not always. But who is.

 

[king Ale]

When delneri realized that he considered lanzafame not even worth a proper roll of the dice, Martinez couldn't play as a traditional attacking and defending, touchline hugging winger, and pepe could...do little else other than try hard, he opted to change the formation to a awkward 4-3-3. This move, aligned with a ridiculously heavy demand upon DP to roll back the years and become a highly mobile left wing forward, basically killed our left flank. De ceglie was doing OK there, before his injury, but thats the first time i have seen him play consistently OK in his whole juve career. Masrchisio was never asked to play LW. Always bunching up in the middle with melo and aqui. So...as aquilani was deployed as a deep lying playmaker, we had hardly any short distance connectivity between midfield and attack, hardly anyone to actually take the ball forward. The right flank was fucked through accepting that krasic was far more a right wing forward, than a traditional right winger, so space appeared constantly between him and motta/sorensen...the sorensen move at least unearthed a real gem, but he is a natural centreback, so naturally bunches up in the centre to form a 3...which had to be done really, as with grosso, there is no LB..but taking away the support behind krasic, meant he had to come deeper to get the ball. in effect, we had little offensive thrust, of people actually capable of carrying the ball, beating men, anywhere in midfield.

delneri could have done better. Played to our strengths more...but he didnt seem to be doing too badly when we had quag fit, because quag's intelligence of movement is often world class, he covers so much ground, very hard to mark or track. Also, his passing is high quality. Once he had died, we were static in attack until matri appeared. DP did brilliantly, but...he is 63 years old now.

Bearing in mind we have only aqui, who may leave, and then melo, who are capable of driving forward, and playing decent balls to the offence, i welcome pirlo with open arms. at 32 he still has a couple of years of world class distrubution in his feet and mind. All we need to do is get some players who are comfortable on the ball, with clever movement, and ideally FBs of a far better quality than what we have, and wingers who can beat their man.

Ziegle is a massive improvement over de ceglie and grosso. We definitely need a right back.
then a LW...so far, i'm happy with marotta's moves.

And yet, i thought i read him saying that conte would be confirmed last week, but he wasn't??? or must they wait until after siena's last game?

my main source of excitement, is this: marotta mentioned that we may not get bastos because of his present non-eu status. Bastos is of a fine quality, yet is obviously of a lesser quality than a deal likely in place already, for a non-eu signing of a far greater quality...who could that be eh???

36.

I'm also happy with our board's moves and with the fact that they have actually realized that much needs to be done to this team in order to fix the problems. If we bring in a world class attacking force, as we are said to trying for, we will finally have a team capable of competing for a CL spot.

My biggest concern is still our defense. Ziegler plus the possible arrival of Licht will fairly improve us on the crucial positions we were terrible at last season but I was still hopeful that our board would do/or at least plan to do much better regarding the full backs, I wished our board planned to pay more to strengthen at least one of those two areas. It now doesn't seem we will look any further to improve our defense, we are likely to settle there with DC, Ziegler, Bonucci, Chiellini, Sorensen, Barzagli, Motta and Licht which, despite being an improvement over what we had last season, will still remain our main worry in the coming season.

 

[Lo-Pan]

36.

I'm also happy with our board's moves and with the fact that they have actually realized that much needs to be done to this team in order to fix the problems. If we bring in a world class attacking force, as we are said to trying for, we will finally have a team capable of competing for a CL spot.

My biggest concern is still our defense. Ziegler plus the possible arrival of Licht will fairly improve us on the crucial positions we were terrible at last season but I was still hopeful that our board would do/or at least plan to do much better regarding the full backs, I wished our board planned to pay more to strengthen at least one of those two areas. It now doesn't seem we will look any further to improve our defense, we are likely to settle there with DC, Ziegler, Bonucci, Chiellini, Sorensen, Barzagli, Motta and Licht which, despite being an improvement over what we had last season, will still remain our main worry in the coming season.

FUCK...I have just realized how long ago I began this thread...march, 2010. And yet we seem no further along the path towards recovery. Still, no joy or satisfaction can come from whining, so onto more positive matters...

Cheers for the input, King Ale. Both fullback positions have been problematic since 2006, lets focus on them in a moment. First, lets look at the GKs and CBs...

Between the sticks we are world class, and near to world class...as long as Buffon isn't sold. No concerns whatsoever.

At centre back, we have chiellini, bonucci, barzagli and potentially sorenson. Girogio is a brute with huge resources of natural talent, but still...not exactly worryingly so, but perhaps slightly disheartening, he has not developed natural leadership skills. which is such a crying fucking shame, given how much natural talent he has as a defender, and also, how much heart he shows. Still, there is no defender in the world I would trade him with, other than Vidic. WHo is equally talented, and less prone to disorder. Chiellini is a blessing I always revere supremely. World class. As for his partner in the middle???? Bonucci really has not had much experience at a high level. He definitely has raw talent, and seems more composed on the ball than giorgio, but...its so hard to judge him this year (as well as chiellini), for so much of the season he has been playing as both CB and RB. Even though others freqently pour scorn upon barzagli, i like him. And with sorenson perhaps, if not sold, allowed to actually challenge to play in his natural position, I feel we are very well covered in the middle as in goal. What sorenson has in terms of one on one confidence, covering, tackling, truly brings a smile to my haggard countenance often...if we do end up using him in part exchange, i pray its a co-ownership, because he could turn out truly something special.

Fullbacks are an obvious problem. Ours have simply been wretched...which I know in myself is true, when I conclude that Molinaro was our best fullback of the last 4 years...A player who couldnt pass, couldnt cross, couldnt dribble, but defensively speaking, he was head and shoulders above the rest around him, during his time at juve, and also after...(other than sorenson, but again hard to judge him as a RB, when he seemed liked a CB spreading wide). Why you suggest that we will keep Motta is beyond my ken to understand. If any player failed the most consistently this season, playing in his natural position, it was hands down, Motta...that view seems never contested, always noted, and if 100% of hundreds of juve supporters feel exactly the same way, then i refuse to believe that marotta, or at least anyone who advises him, has not noticed the same, steady, abysmal failure. If purchased, it will be to use in part exchange for someone else. Don't worry about him staying. Grygera? I would like to have seen more of him this season, to be fair. He has often seemed, near to solid. But he hasn't played much and has never been more than 'hopefully solid'. Motta and Grygera goblin OUT, grosso also out, as when we play with him at LB, its akin to playing with no LB whatsoever, for his positioning and interest in defending is english league two standard, at best...I would be bothered by Hessenthaler even giving him a trial at Gillingham. So all that leaves us...is De Ceglie. when we need 2 LBs and 2 RBs...de ceglie has always had guts, determination, decent pace, a useful cross...but defensively he has been absolutely awful, for a long time now. one of the few pieces of credit due delneri, along with rejuvenating Melo, is whatever he did to de ceglie, to make him perform, for a month or three, quite competently. He was no Gareth Bale, but better in the tackle, better at crossing, better positionally, than i have ever seen him before...no world beater, but showing signs of finally making good on the promise many suggest of him.

I suspect that sorenson will be co-owned out of the club, cashing in on him after his breakthrough season. A shame, but...i would understand why a few million could be useful, and with the knowledge that he has been somehow branded with the JUVE famigla insignia, and if he does brilliantly, and we dont get any worse, we will get him back with ease. We need success NOW, not another few years to blood youngsters...I would however prefer him to stay, as a chiellini/sorenson future pairing, seems brutal and a serious Wall to the opposition. But the fullbacks...we have zeigle, and i am not over excited, but happy, to have someone, who to my mind, can be depended on, to do the basics, and also get forward, take free kicks and corners. The left will be ok. the right??? we need two RBs...or one purchased (beck?) and one promoted from the primavera or purchased.

AFter that, we have decent CMs, in mainly destroyer but also often cultured on the ball Big Phil, aging but surely still absolute quality on the ball Pirlo, and a MArchisio, who...i have no idea what to call his natural position. Ekdal isnt coming home. Else we wouldnt be signing pazienza, who is surely a backup for the most combative of our CM positions. Nor would we be signing Pirlo and possibly also Aquilani... We are not amazing there, but OK, whatever happens. Krasic can be very useful, and pepe would be OK as his backup, but not as a starter...so...a very expensive bench player, but not totally wasted $. Martinez is better than what we have seen of him in a juve jersey so far. He needs to be playing further up the field, focused on purely offence, and not crossing, as his main directive, but getting into the box with the ball at his feet. We spent so much on him, and i often liked him in sicily, i retain hope of him been deployed properly, and bringing us some joy. But still...we MUST buy a left sided attacking midfielder. Even a simply competent one, and especially if we are going to spend big on another attacking player...but then who?

Matri should stay. He is not the best prima punta in the world, but we have presently zero chance of attracting the best prima punta in the world, and matri is decent. Coming into a falling giant, struggling for any semblance of form, a team lacking any hint of confidence, he has done very well indeed. So who would our other prima punta be???

Amauri must be sold. He did well at parma, but he did so badly with us, had so many chances, and proved always a pigfucker, more than a centre forward, he must be sold. It would be like he was going back to an ex girlfriend, who took a year to force him to leave her, and now he wants her back. She left YOU for a reason, Jesus lookalike...No more than 5m for him. At best. Surely Iaquinta will also be sold. 3m at best. Big savings on the wage bill, especially with amauri. And another 8m to spend. Quag did play in a strange, but very useful mix between prima punta and trequartista. Even scoring a few with his head...but he is seconda punta. I like the idea of him and Matri. DP will be quag's sub, but we need a prima punta to be Matri's sub...i would say Toni could be OK, but I expect him to be moved on this summer. Wishful thinking perhaps, but i wont be horrified if he stays as matri's sub.

Giovinco could return. Its highy unlikely, if the snippets of badly translated quotes are to be believed. But Conte could call him, make him feel wanted, ask him, just once and once only, and buy into Conte, and return, fuck parma's co-ownership. It would be his decision alone. If he did come back, I would be happy. But we still need a LW.

 

[Gustav]

My biggest concern is still our defense. Ziegler plus the possible arrival of Licht will fairly improve us on the crucial positions we were terrible at last season but I was still hopeful that our board would do/or at least plan to do much better regarding the full backs, I wished our board planned to pay more to strengthen at least one of those two areas. It now doesn't seem we will look any further to improve our defense, we are likely to settle there with DC, Ziegler, Bonucci, Chiellini, Sorensen, Barzagli, Motta and Licht which, despite being an improvement over what we had last season, will still remain our main worry in the coming season.

Well said about the D. Ziegler and Lichtsteiner will only be a minor improvement. The only hope is that Conte's Juve will be more organized and cohesive than the Juve of last 2 seasons.

 

[dodo]

My biggest concern is still our defense. Ziegler plus the possible arrival of Licht will fairly improve us on the crucial positions we were terrible at last season but I was still hopeful that our board would do/or at least plan to do much better regarding the full backs, I wished our board planned to pay more to strengthen at least one of those two areas. It now doesn't seem we will look any further to improve our defense, we are likely to settle there with DC, Ziegler, Bonucci, Chiellini, Sorensen, Barzagli, Motta and Licht which, despite being an improvement over what we had last season, will still remain our main worry in the coming season.

It's probably because forwards get people more excited compared to defenders and Marotta needs a big signing whose name excites the crowd, also for the new stadium and to keep people off his back for now. It also seems that there are more big name forwards on the market this summer and not many defenders. If Marotta really manage to fix the attack, sign Aguero/Sanchez and a good LW/LM, then I'm okay with that, we can do the same for defence next season. I'm happy as long as we sign players who actually improves the team.

 

[adriano_c]

Well said about the D. Ziegler and Lichtsteiner will only be a minor improvement. The only hope is that Conte's Juve will be more organized and cohesive than the Juve of last 2 seasons.

To be fair, just about anyone brought in at FB would be a massive improvement over Motta, not just "minor."

 

[electricRoo]

He's also always right.

Nah, he's delusional. He wants what? 5 world class players in a single transfer season? Only Real Madrid and Man City can do that.

BTW, having Ziegler and Lich over Grosso and Motta is a huge improvement, not just minor. Again, the tuz black and white way of looking at things is in action.