What? :dazed:
I missed such important thing?
It was all about days only, not nights?
I missed such important thing?
It was all about days only, not nights?
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Ramadan Kareem!! (29 Viewers)
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I personally don't believe that the Shroud of Turin is Christ's burial cloth.
Let’s begin with some facts that atheistic scholars agree on:
1. Jesus was crucified, He died and was buried in a tomb.
2. Jesus’ disciples were in despair, and they went into hiding.
3. Three days after Jesus’ crucifixion, His disciples experienced what they believed were literal appearances of Jesus.
4. At the same time as these occurrences, Jesus’ disciples stopped hiding and started to proclaim their Risen Messiah.
5. The Christian church began to flourish.
6. Two skeptics, Paul and James (Jesus’ brother) became Christians after meeting what they believed was the risen Jesus.
Some people think that Jesus' body was stolen by the disciples.
There was no way they could have stolen Jesus’ body. The Roman guards posted in front of Jesus’ tomb were rigidly trained soldiers who faced the death sentence if they failed to do their job.
Can you imagine the scared, wussy disciples executing such a plot, risking their lives to steal Jesus’ body, hide it, and then proclaim a lie to the world? There would be no purpose in this action.
All of them, according to tradition, except the apostle John, died horrible deaths. Simon Peter was crucified upside down. Andrew, James and the other Simon were crucified. James was beheaded by Herod, Bartholomew was flayed to death, and Philip, Thomas, Matthew and Jude all died in martyrdom. Would they all have been willing to face persecution, hardship, alienation, even death, for a concocted lie?
The Pharisees and Sadducees tried to bribe the Roman guards into saying that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body while they were asleep. They were even guaranteed that they would not be punished for doing so
Matthew 28:11-15
"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."
There was just one problem of logic with this story: If the guards were sleeping, how did they know that the disciples stole Jesus’ body?
Some argue that Jesus’ disciples were hallucinating when they “saw” Jesus, risen from the dead. Here again, we have a problem. One, even two people can hallucinate, but how can more than five hundred people hallucinate about the same thing?
Even atheistic experts agree that this many people can not hallucinate about the same thing at the same time.
Others say that the story of Jesus’ resurrection is a legend, fabricated centuries after the fact.
Taken from a website: "A few years ago, Professor E.L. Sakenik, a Jewish archaeologist, excavated a Christian tomb in the clay limestone hills around Jerusalem. The tomb housed ossuaries (stone boxes) containing the bones of dead people. On all four sides of these ossuaries, he found charcoal-drawn crosses. In the tomb, pottery was found of a type known as Herodia, as well as a coin minted by Aggrippa I in the year 41 A.D. This is evidence that this was a Christian tomb, dating 41 A.D., just 10 years after Jesus’ crucifixion.
Two of the ossuaries had the name Jesus inscribed on them. On one ossuary the name Jesus was followed by iou, which is the Greek version of Yahweh, the name of God. In other words, the inscription read:” Jesus is God”. The other ossuary that bore the name Jesus had the Greek letters aloth following it. This is a Hebrew word written in Greek letters, meaning ascended one. In other words: “Jesus, the ascended one” or “Jesus, the
Risen one”."
After witnessing their Risen Savior, Jesus’ scared disciples could no longer be silenced. They were all willing to die horrible deaths, for they knew that they, too, would soon be resurrected at Jesus’ Second coming! Are you willing to die for your Risen Savior?
Let’s begin with some facts that atheistic scholars agree on:
1. Jesus was crucified, He died and was buried in a tomb.
2. Jesus’ disciples were in despair, and they went into hiding.
3. Three days after Jesus’ crucifixion, His disciples experienced what they believed were literal appearances of Jesus.
4. At the same time as these occurrences, Jesus’ disciples stopped hiding and started to proclaim their Risen Messiah.
5. The Christian church began to flourish.
6. Two skeptics, Paul and James (Jesus’ brother) became Christians after meeting what they believed was the risen Jesus.
Some people think that Jesus' body was stolen by the disciples.
There was no way they could have stolen Jesus’ body. The Roman guards posted in front of Jesus’ tomb were rigidly trained soldiers who faced the death sentence if they failed to do their job.
Can you imagine the scared, wussy disciples executing such a plot, risking their lives to steal Jesus’ body, hide it, and then proclaim a lie to the world? There would be no purpose in this action.
All of them, according to tradition, except the apostle John, died horrible deaths. Simon Peter was crucified upside down. Andrew, James and the other Simon were crucified. James was beheaded by Herod, Bartholomew was flayed to death, and Philip, Thomas, Matthew and Jude all died in martyrdom. Would they all have been willing to face persecution, hardship, alienation, even death, for a concocted lie?
The Pharisees and Sadducees tried to bribe the Roman guards into saying that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body while they were asleep. They were even guaranteed that they would not be punished for doing so
Matthew 28:11-15
"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."
There was just one problem of logic with this story: If the guards were sleeping, how did they know that the disciples stole Jesus’ body?
Some argue that Jesus’ disciples were hallucinating when they “saw” Jesus, risen from the dead. Here again, we have a problem. One, even two people can hallucinate, but how can more than five hundred people hallucinate about the same thing?
Even atheistic experts agree that this many people can not hallucinate about the same thing at the same time.
Others say that the story of Jesus’ resurrection is a legend, fabricated centuries after the fact.
Taken from a website: "A few years ago, Professor E.L. Sakenik, a Jewish archaeologist, excavated a Christian tomb in the clay limestone hills around Jerusalem. The tomb housed ossuaries (stone boxes) containing the bones of dead people. On all four sides of these ossuaries, he found charcoal-drawn crosses. In the tomb, pottery was found of a type known as Herodia, as well as a coin minted by Aggrippa I in the year 41 A.D. This is evidence that this was a Christian tomb, dating 41 A.D., just 10 years after Jesus’ crucifixion.
Two of the ossuaries had the name Jesus inscribed on them. On one ossuary the name Jesus was followed by iou, which is the Greek version of Yahweh, the name of God. In other words, the inscription read:” Jesus is God”. The other ossuary that bore the name Jesus had the Greek letters aloth following it. This is a Hebrew word written in Greek letters, meaning ascended one. In other words: “Jesus, the ascended one” or “Jesus, the
Risen one”."
After witnessing their Risen Savior, Jesus’ scared disciples could no longer be silenced. They were all willing to die horrible deaths, for they knew that they, too, would soon be resurrected at Jesus’ Second coming! Are you willing to die for your Risen Savior?
not really, because i dont know what your point is or what your arguing from my post?! 
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
not really, because i dont know what your point is or what your arguing from my post?!
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
not really, because i dont know what your point is or what your arguing from my post?!
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
I sense that we didnt understand each other.
I said that he died on cross, as every other person, cause there wasnt any other punishment.
And you dont believe, that he died in this way, but he was replaced before, right?
I understood you, that you didnt believe that he died on cross, but in some other way (that there was some other punishment)
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
not really, because i dont know what your point is or what your arguing from my post?!
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
not really, because i dont know what your point is or what your arguing from my post?!
i never said that it's unusual to be crossed.
We believe someone was crossed, but i just wasn't Jesus. Before it happened, Jesus PBUH was replaced.
If you find that being replaced is something hard to believe, then wouldn't you find it strange that Mary was a Virgin when she gave Birth?
What i mean is, do you have proof that the person who was crusified was indeed Jesus who was born from virgin Mary?
++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Hmm I thought I already answered this To put it simply again:
The Old Testament tells of the beginning of the world, the fall of man (corruption by sin), the prophesying of the Saviour to come and save man.
New Testament - The coming of Christ the Saviour, his death and resurrection
Luke 1:76
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
John the Baptist wasn't exactly a prophet in the same sense as the Old Testament. The OT prophets were around hundreds of years before Christ's birth, but John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Jesus.
What I'm wondering is, if Jesus preached in so many cities, and stayed there for long periods of time, wouldn't the people of the cities (especially the disciples) recognise him, and realise that it's not Jesus on the cross? He was very famous, and Jesus' mother even saw him on the cross, so wouldn't she have realised if it wasn't actually him on the cross?
Also, when was the transition made between Jesus and this 'imposter'? Since Jesus was teaching and praying before he was arrested and held in custody, wouldn't the other disciples have realised that this 'imposter' isn't Jesus, as soon as he tried to teach them in the same way that Christ did?
Hmm I thought I already answered this
To put it simply again:The Old Testament tells of the beginning of the world, the fall of man (corruption by sin), the prophesying of the Saviour to come and save man.
New Testament - The coming of Christ the Saviour, his death and resurrection
Luke 1:76
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
John the Baptist wasn't exactly a prophet in the same sense as the Old Testament. The OT prophets were around hundreds of years before Christ's birth, but John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Jesus.
What I'm wondering is, if Jesus preached in so many cities, and stayed there for long periods of time, wouldn't the people of the cities (especially the disciples) recognise him, and realise that it's not Jesus on the cross? He was very famous, and Jesus' mother even saw him on the cross, so wouldn't she have realised if it wasn't actually him on the cross?
Also, when was the transition made between Jesus and this 'imposter'? Since Jesus was teaching and praying before he was arrested and held in custody, wouldn't the other disciples have realised that this 'imposter' isn't Jesus, as soon as he tried to teach them in the same way that Christ did?
of course one of the things my sci-fi brain can come out with : on the second before he was crucified, the time stopped. God turn the traitor to look like Jesus which better than any Hollywood make up technique and could fool even his mother's mortal eyes, put that man in JEsus place and raised Jesus to the sky.and walluh time runs again....
of course another easier thing: God just raised JEsus to the sky and make all the people to think that he died on the cross..* MIB memory flasher thing comes in mind *
but of course God is more creative than that...
my point is i dunno. But is it more logic not to question the power of god ?.. but of course if sally can find a more believable source...
++ [ originally posted by vitoria_Ally ] ++
Arguing? Have I ever?
I sense that we didnt understand each other.
I said that he died on cross, as every other person, cause there wasnt any other punishment.
And you dont believe, that he died in this way, but he was replaced before, right?
I understood you, that you didnt believe that he died on cross, but in some other way (that there was some other punishment )
Arguing? Have I ever?
I sense that we didnt understand each other.
I said that he died on cross, as every other person, cause there wasnt any other punishment.
And you dont believe, that he died in this way, but he was replaced before, right?
I understood you, that you didnt believe that he died on cross, but in some other way (that there was some other punishment )
No Vit... I dont believe he was punished at all. We believe That Jesus PBUH, with God's Power, is still alive right now beside God....so it doesn't matter what type of punishment there was back then (i know it was crusifiction)
i'll get back to Gray long post....
(BTW Gray, why do you keep arguing with Bible?! Only Christians/Catholics... believe its true)
Dude, I only put in one quote from the Bible, and it wasn't to argue my point, it was just to show where i got the figure of 500 people... please don't discount the rest of my argument because i used the Bible once :down:
I'm not questioning the power of God, I'm questioning the fact that God would work that way. By that argument, you could say that God freezes the world every 2 seconds, changes something, and makes us think that everything's okay. I personally don't believe that God would work this way.
He has a plan for everything, and doesn't need to stop time and play a trick on humans.
I'm not questioning the power of God, I'm questioning the fact that God would work that way. By that argument, you could say that God freezes the world every 2 seconds, changes something, and makes us think that everything's okay. I personally don't believe that God would work this way.
He has a plan for everything, and doesn't need to stop time and play a trick on humans.
++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
oh.. u didnt know that the fasting period is from the sunrise to sunset only.. i cant believe u think that we dont eat and drink for the whole month
oh.. u didnt know that the fasting period is from the sunrise to sunset only
.. i cant believe u think that we dont eat and drink for the whole month
So if she tells me, that sex is not allowed during Ramadan, I took that as nights and days. Cause otherwise, this is not big deal, if sex is not allowed only during days.
And she sounded like it was not allowed at all.
I know about sunrise/sunset and food/drink thing.
please dont take my suggestion that God freeze time seriously as i says that as one of the thing that could happen to show my points...
i seriously cant see how u can think that i say GOd works the way u said.
We are discussing about the event Jesus risen to the sky. And you asked 'how can that happen? ' . And i said ' Its the power of God. i cant asnwer '.
The same way i cant asnwer how virgin Mary can give birth to a child. Of course if intend to do that u would suggest after that that God make virgin women pregnant every 2 second... no....
we are disccussing about a particular event only here. There is no way God would do to us the same way He do to the prophets.
i seriously cant see how u can think that i say GOd works the way u said.
We are discussing about the event Jesus risen to the sky. And you asked 'how can that happen? ' . And i said ' Its the power of God. i cant asnwer '.
The same way i cant asnwer how virgin Mary can give birth to a child. Of course if intend to do that u would suggest after that that God make virgin women pregnant every 2 second... no....
we are disccussing about a particular event only here. There is no way God would do to us the same way He do to the prophets.
vit: So what else do polish catholics differ from other catholics? The pope is polish so I thought you guys had exactly the same roman catholic upbringing.
Sally: wow that was an interesting story.
MAjed: Romans kept records of who died. And impartial historians of those times did write about him.
The shroud of Turin is something else. First of all the 700 year thing you`re talking about does not stand on its feet because when they analysed the shroud, the analysis is not perfect and 700 years ago there was a fire and cos of that the analysis cannot really trace the exact date.
So how where they buried? I always thought they were covered in a shroud with oil for perfuming and buried in a cave.
Oh and what's PBUH?
Sally: wow that was an interesting story.
MAjed: Romans kept records of who died. And impartial historians of those times did write about him.
The shroud of Turin is something else. First of all the 700 year thing you`re talking about does not stand on its feet because when they analysed the shroud, the analysis is not perfect and 700 years ago there was a fire and cos of that the analysis cannot really trace the exact date.
So how where they buried? I always thought they were covered in a shroud with oil for perfuming and buried in a cave.
Oh and what's PBUH?