News that makes you say WTF! (40 Viewers)

[swag]

What Ocelot is saying is that the reason those people are discriminated against is because they are not ethnically part of the "Jewish people" and not because they aren't Jews by religion. Which is probably true, their common narrative is more of an ethnocentric nationalist one than it is a religious one IMO. Are Atheist Israeli's who are considered "ethnic Jews" discriminated against like the Arabs are? because technically if you believe the Arab Israeli's are discriminated against due to their religion, then by extension the same treatment would be afforded to Atheist Israeli's.

Nicely done, sir.

Great topic, btw.

Dude.. You even acknowledge what I'm saying in your own post.

An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group whose members are also unified by a common religious background.

Jews for Jesus ftw

Nope. Read the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935. Why engage in a discussion you've clearly have very little knowledge about?

Good bathroom reading, btw. Who doesn't have a copy to peruse while pinching one out?

Politics. Quite simply. Law of return used a similar lineage as the Nuremberg Laws, but a turn towards a more conservative/orthodox Israel have changed that.

If conservative/orthodox jews can keep liberal/non-religious jews out of Israel, they strengthen their political as well as ideological position.

Despite what some might think jews tho a small population have a deep power struggle in regards to jewishness. Beta Israel says hi.

Pretty much this: even Jews don't agree what is Jewishness and what isn't. Kinda like a Jewish takfir??

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

Nope it does not. You said (or rather implied) that you have to be a Jew to to become a Israeli citizen, which is not true. The article I posted shows a systemic discrimination, which is similar to some extent to how Iran treats foreign nationals marrying Iranian citizens.
But as I said earlier, I get your point. I don't disagree that Israel is founded based on a religion, which happens to have only 14m followers around the world. What I disagree with you is the notion that they are the only ones. It's more gray than black or white, and I don't see that much of a difference between Israel, Saudi Arabia and Iran in that regard.

At the discretion means absolutely nothing, like i said every country in the world has that provision and it's never mentioned in their immigration charts for a reason. Fyi by law jews can't marry non jews in Israel, even if they convert.

 

[Ronn]

At the discretion means absolutely nothing, like i said every country in the world has that provision and it's never mentioned in their immigration charts for a reason. Fyi by law jews can't marry non jews in Israel, even if they convert.

Iranian Muslim women cannot marry to a non-Muslim in Iran since nobody will register their marriage.
I can't see how "even if they convert" part supports your argument though

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Iranian Muslim women cannot marry to a non-Muslim in Iran since nobody will register their marriage.
I can't see how "even if they convert" part supports your argument though

Consersion is an easy way out of those rules elsewhere, not in Israel where it is stricter observance of rules and a way of maintaining Jewish supremacy.

 

[king Ale]

Politics. Quite simply. Law of return used a similar lineage as the Nuremberg Laws, but a turn towards a more conservative/orthodox Israel have changed that.

If conservative/orthodox jews can keep liberal/non-religious jews out of Israel, they strengthen their political as well as ideological position.

Despite what some might think jews tho a small population have a deep power struggle in regards to jewishness. Beta Israel says hi.

I won't equate atheists with followers of another religion though. For atheists, the Jewish self-identification is still assumed. It's not only about Judaism though, as a non-practicing muslim I'm still fine in Iran but if I convert to another religion some of my basic human rights could be denied.

Anyways, I'm fine with labeling Israel an ethnoreligious apartheid too but I still think religious considerations precede those of ethnicity 1) because children of jewish parents who have converted to another religion are not eligible for immigration and 2) because I'd be eligible for immigration if I converted to Judaism.

 

[Maddy]

I won't equate atheists with followers of another religion though. For atheists, the Jewish self-identification is still assumed. It's not only about Judaism though, as a non-practicing muslim I'm still fine in Iran but if I convert to another religion some of my basic human rights could be denied.

It's odd? Isn't it? For a believer an atheist should be the worst. At least an atheist proselyte.

It's an interesting discussion. I'm not baptized nor am I a member of a church, yet I consider myself a Christian by culture. And I identify myself with lutheranism. And I'm 1/8 jewish btw

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Pretty much this: even Jews don't agree what is Jewishness and what isn't. Kinda like a Jewish takfir??

It's a mess. Depo-Provera and Pfizer didn't mind

 

[king Ale]

It's odd? Isn't it? For a believer an atheist should be the worst. At least an atheist proselyte.

It's an interesting discussion. I'm not baptized nor am I a member of a church, yet I consider myself a Christian by culture. And I identify myself with lutheranism. And I'm 1/8 jewish btw

And I'm not practicing Islam and still identify with Islam and Muslims. That's why it's absurd when Trump suggests banning muslims from entering the US because who's a muslim exactly? Unless I convert to another religion I'll always be a muslim.

It's a dick measuring contest I'm telling you, and atheism is not a worthy rival yet

 

[swag]

Atheism is a, or at least for some it is a replacement, religion. Old yarn from me, I know.

Agnosticism is arguably the only real absence of a religion.

 

[Martin]

There is no truer form of religion than the absence of religion.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Maddy]

Atheism is a, or at least for some it is a replacement, religion. Old yarn from me, I know.

Agnosticism is arguably the only real absence of a religion.

Those who converted to atheism are the worst. Those born atheist are true and righteous. The chosen people. The 99 tribes of science and a bitch ain't one.

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Fixed it for you.

Relax, Chris Martin.

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It's a dick measuring contest I'm telling you, and atheism is not a worthy rival yet

And we all lose to Zach the Belgian Midgard Serpent.

 

[Seven]

Atheism is a, or at least for some it is a replacement, religion. Old yarn from me, I know.

Agnosticism is arguably the only real absence of a religion.

Well, atheism and religion are sort of similar in that they both claim to know the truth. But there are also a lot of differences. Most religions stress certain values. In fact a lot of religions talk about the same values anyway. Atheism does not though. You can't really build a philosophy on nothing.

As for agnosticism.. I guess we all are agnostic anyway. Muslims, christians, jews might all have faith, but deep down everyone knows you just don't know.

 

[Seven]

It's odd? Isn't it? For a believer an atheist should be the worst. At least an atheist proselyte.

It's an interesting discussion. I'm not baptized nor am I a member of a church, yet I consider myself a Christian by culture. And I identify myself with lutheranism. And I'm 1/8 jewish btw

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It's a mess. Depo-Provera and Pfizer didn't mind

I'm still waiting for an answer on how Nazi antisemitic laws demonstrate that Europe was flooded with atheist Jews in the 1930's. I guess that, despite your annoying and condescending tone, you made an obvious mistake and are now not enough of a man to admit so.

Shame.

 

[swag]

Well, atheism and religion are sort of similar in that they both claim to know the truth. But there are also a lot of differences. Most religions stress certain values. In fact a lot of religions talk about the same values anyway. Atheism does not though. You can't really build a philosophy on nothing.

As for agnosticism.. I guess we all are agnostic anyway. Muslims, christians, jews might all have faith, but deep down everyone knows you just don't know.

I disagree. You could argue that the values of atheism are freedom from religion (rather than freedom of religion), rational humanist thought, and often semi-worship of the scientific method and observational/evidence-based practices.

I would also add Skepticism (capital S) -- in a healthy, scientific way -- but many true skeptics I know disown the atheist movement within the skeptical community because of their dogma-driven belief system.

 

[Seven]

I disagree. You could argue that the values of atheism are freedom from religion (rather than freedom of religion), rational humanist thought, and often semi-worship of the scientific method and observational/evidence-based practices.

I would also add Skepticism (capital S) -- in a healthy, scientific way -- but many true skeptics I know disown the atheist movement within the skeptical community because of their dogma-driven belief system.

No. You have it the wrong way around imo. Atheists come to an atheist conclusion because of those values. At least in their mind. There is no atheist origin story that serves as justification for those values and atheism does not teach these values either.

If you look at christianity it is God who gives people the ten commandments. The values come from the religion in itself and are often exemplified in stories. That's completely different from atheism.

 

[swag]

No. You have it the wrong way around imo. Atheists come to an atheist conclusion because of those values. At least in their mind. There is no atheist origin story that serves as justification for those values and atheism does not teach these values either.

If you look at christianity it is God who gives people the ten commandments. The values come from the religion in itself and are often exemplified in stories. That's completely different from atheism.

Err, how does that explain the areligious person who becomes a Born Again Christian? I don't think you can simply say the values simply follow buying the Religion starter package off of the IKEA store shelves.

Values-driven religious preferences exist. And religious beliefs are not static and burned into your DNA. America is filled with crackpots who follow the latest evangelist and quasi-cult all the time.

 

[Mohad]

 

[Seven]

Err, how does that explain the areligious person who becomes a Born Again Christian? I don't think you can simply say the values simply follow buying the Religion starter package off of the IKEA store shelves.

Values-driven religious preferences exist. And religious beliefs are not static and burned into your DNA. America is filled with crackpots who follow the latest evangelist and quasi-cult all the time.

Sure. And a lot of religions have the same values. But in theory those values are something that follows from believing.

You don't pick christianity because you believe in the ten commandments, you believe in the ten commandments because you are Christian.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn A0001 met Tapatalk

 

[Ocelot]

That has actually been a pretty good discussion, guess that's what happens when guys like Rus stay away from a political topic

Btw I never meant to say that religion plays a negligible role, but that the idea of a Jewish ethnicity/people is more important than faith - although I did probably underestimate the role religion plays a bit at the beginning of the discussion.

I'm still waiting for an answer on how Nazi antisemitic laws demonstrate that Europe was flooded with atheist Jews in the 1930's. I guess that, despite your annoying and condescending tone, you made an obvious mistake and are now not enough of a man to admit so.

Shame.

It's a bit of a stretch, but you could interpret the Nuremberg race laws as a sign of German Jews not being overly religious (and it's an established fact that the broad majority of Jew living in Germany at that time were at least very little concerned with religion and often even Jewish identity, don't know if i would use the term atheist though). If that were not the case, persecution would've worked out just as well by religious association, without the Jews being really religious however, this is difficult as a lot of them would've just converted - therefore a persecution by race was necessary.

Of course, that train of thought is not very useful as it doesn't take into account the racial theory on which the entire National Socialist idiology was built on.

I disagree. You could argue that the values of atheism are freedom from religion (rather than freedom of religion), rational humanist thought, and often semi-worship of the scientific method and observational/evidence-based practices.

I would also add Skepticism (capital S) -- in a healthy, scientific way -- but many true skeptics I know disown the atheist movement within the skeptical community because of their dogma-driven belief system.

These values are often associated with atheism, but they're not in any way part of atheism per se - atheism per definition does not have any frame of reference where it would take its values from, be it holy books or oral traditions.

 

[Seven]

Well, it was fun while it lasted

Just put him on your ignore list. I do so too. Occasionally when I want to I'll respond to him, but mostly I don't want to read what he says. The problem with Rus is that he has obvious psychological problems. Remember when he was telling everyone he owned a busines and employed dozens of workers? That was fun.. He's a sad case and it's probably best not to enable him too much.

 

[campionesidd]

Atheism is simply non-belief in the existence of a diety/god.
It has nothing to do with 'knowing' whether god exists or not.

Atheism/theism pertains to belief whereas gnosticism/agnosticm pertains to knowledge.