News that makes you say WTF! (70 Viewers)

[Fred]

Yeah, no. It doesn't work that way. If it is built on the assumption that there is a Jewish people, you have to wonder why it is assumed. Clearly Jews will not say that they are a people based on racial characteristics. That would be foolish as there are black and white Jews. But because they do see themselves as a distinct people, there must be some characteristic that differentiates them from other peoples. That characteristic is religion.

But they do claim to all be descendants of Jews that were expelled from modern day Israel, that I believe is their claimed common characteristic.

 

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[Seven]

Perhaps a wee research in the matter would help you understand Ocelot's point. Seven tribes of Israel would be a great starting point to why Jews see themselves as an ethnoreligious group.

Dude.. You even acknowledge what I'm saying in your own post.

An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group whose members are also unified by a common religious background.

 

[Maddy]

Ironic that, when you take into consideration that Jews were the biggest victims in modern history of a state based on ethnocentric and/or racial basis.

.. and they were killed not because of their beliefs (atheist jews. Heck even converted jews were targetted), but 'cause of their "race".

 

[Seven]

But they do claim to all be descendants of Jews that were expelled from modern day Israel, that I believe is their claimed common characteristic.

That may be so, but if you're black and I'm white, we are not of the same race and we are not of the same ethnicity either. That's just how it is. The only thing that makes Jews Jews is religion. They don't have any other characteristic that seperates them from other people.

 

[Fred]

.. and they were killed not because of their beliefs (atheist jews. Heck even converted jews were targetted), but 'cause of their "race".

Yes, exactly. By a state which believed in race, pure bloodlines and other bullshit that caused jews to be targeted. You'd think they wouldn't then use the same rationale to build their own state.

 

[Maddy]

Dude.. You even acknowledge what I'm saying in your own post.

An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group whose members are also unified by a common religious background.

Nope. I don't. Ethnoreligous is more than sharing a religion or sharing an ethnicity. Which is exactly ocelot's point, and exactly the idea of a jewish people is build upon. You can be a Jew without a believing in yahweh and vice versa.

 

[Seven]

.. and they were killed not because of their beliefs (atheist jews. Heck even converted jews were targetted), but 'cause of their "race".

You're talking about 1930's and 1940's Europe. I think you are vastly overrating the number of atheists.

 

[JBF]

What Ocelot is saying is that the reason those people are discriminated against is because they are not ethnically part of the "Jewish people" and not because they aren't Jews by religion. Which is probably true, their common narrative is more of an ethnocentric nationalist one than it is a religious one IMO. Are Atheist Israeli's who are considered "ethnic Jews" discriminated against like the Arabs are? because technically if you believe the Arab Israeli's are discriminated against due to their religion, then by extension the same treatment would be afforded to Atheist Israeli's.

Aha, I see your point and I do agree for the most part. But that's the thing I've also discussed above.

Mihrazi Jews are also being discriminated against. To a lesser extent than that of Arab israelis but its still there. And all because of their racial, cultural and ethnic differences. That's exactly why israel should be viewed as a racist apartheid entity, this level of racism and segregation between even what they consider their own let alone every other human right violation they practice on Palestinians, is unmatched in recent history except for Nazi Germany.

 

[Maddy]

Yes, exactly. By a state which believed in race, pure bloodlines and other bullshit that caused jews to be targeted. You'd think they wouldn't then use the same rationale to build their own state.

The state of Israel isn't a pretty one, and not the great democracy of the middle east that some right wingers liek to think.

 

[Seven]

Nope. I don't. Ethnoreligous is more than sharing a religion or sharing an ethnicity. Which is exactly ocelot's point, and exactly the idea of a jewish people is build upon. You can be a Jew without a believing in yahweh and vice versa.

That's weird. Because the Oxford Dictionary defines it as: "That involves both religious and ethnic factors; relating to the connection between religion and ethnicity.".

I'm guessing that's because it wouldn't make much sense to have a word with religious in it that wouldn't somehow refer to religion.

 

[Maddy]

You're talking about 1930's and 1940's Europe. I think you are vastly overrating the number of atheists.

Nope. Read the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935. Why engage in a discussion you've clearly have very little knowledge about?

 

[JBF]

.. and they were killed not because of their beliefs (atheist jews. Heck even converted jews were targetted), but 'cause of their "race".

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796

 

[Maddy]

That's weird. Because the Oxford Dictionary defines it as: "That involves both religious and ethnic factors; relating to the connection between religion and ethnicity.".

I'm guessing that's because it wouldn't make much sense to have a word with religious in it that wouldn't somehow refer to religion.

notice more and please be aware i've never said religion didn't matter, but that to the jewish people it's more than sharing a religion, hence why madonna will never be jewish.

 

[Seven]

Nope. Read the Nuremberg Race Laws of 1935. Why engage in a discussion you've clearly have very little knowledge about?

You want to use antisemitic laws in Nazi Germany to demonstrate that there were many atheist Jews in the 1930s. Enlighten me how this is going to work.

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notice more and please be aware i've never said religion didn't matter, but that to the jewish people it's more than sharing a religion, hence why madonna will never be jewish.

Sure it's more. Just like people can be catholic and it's about more than religion too. But religion is an integral part of it. And since there is no other defining characteristic when it comes to a Jewish 'ethnicity' it's pretty fundamental to the state of Israel, which sees itself as Jewish.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Even that's not entirely true. Non Jews marrying Jews can obtain citizenship after a long process that might take years, but they still can


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That is entirely true they only direct path to citizenship is judaism, naturalization is at the discretion of government irrespective of marriage

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/state/pages/acquisition of israeli nationality.aspx

 

[Ronn]

That is entirely true they only direct path to citizenship is judaism, naturalization is at the discretion of government irrespective of marriage

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/state/pages/acquisition of israeli nationality.aspx

Being in the discretion of the government doesn't mean that it cannot happen. Your statement was that to become a Israeli citizen you have to be a Jew, which I think is not true. It's not direct; it's hard; but it still is not impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/shavuot/.premium-1.596678
"wo categories of intermarried couples face special challenges in Israel. The first is couples like Rona and Thomas, in which one spouse is not an Israeli citizen and – despite being married to an Israeli citizen – is forced to undergo an arduous process and wait years to receive citizenship"

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That is entirely true they only direct path to citizenship is judaism, naturalization is at the discretion of government irrespective of marriage

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/state/pages/acquisition of israeli nationality.aspx

Being in the discretion of the government doesn't mean that it cannot happen. Your statement was that to become a Israeli citizen you have to be a Jew, which I think is not true. It's not direct; it's hard; but it still is not impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/shavuot/.premium-1.596678
"wo categories of intermarried couples face special challenges in Israel. The first is couples like Rona and Thomas, in which one spouse is not an Israeli citizen and – despite being married to an Israeli citizen – is forced to undergo an arduous process and wait years to receive citizenship"

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Being in the discretion of the government doesn't mean that it cannot happen. Your statement was that to become a Israeli citizen you have to be a Jew, which I think is not true. It's not direct; it's hard; but it still is not impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/shavuot/.premium-1.596678
"wo categories of intermarried couples face special challenges in Israel. The first is couples like Rona and Thomas, in which one spouse is not an Israeli citizen and – despite being married to an Israeli citizen – is forced to undergo an arduous process and wait years to receive citizenship"

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Being in the discretion of the government doesn't mean that it cannot happen. Your statement was that to become a Israeli citizen you have to be a Jew, which I think is not true. It's not direct; it's hard; but it still is not impossible.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/shavuot/.premium-1.596678
"wo categories of intermarried couples face special challenges in Israel. The first is couples like Rona and Thomas, in which one spouse is not an Israeli citizen and – despite being married to an Israeli citizen – is forced to undergo an arduous process and wait years to receive citizenship"

Every country can grant anyone a citizenship at their discretion, that means nothing. As i showed you there's no official direct path to citizenship unless you are a jew. Also the article you posted supports my initial point.

 

[Ronn]

Every country can grant anyone a citizenship at their discretion, that means nothing. As i showed you there's no official direct path to citizenship unless you are a jew. Also the article you posted supports my initial point.

Nope it does not. You said (or rather implied) that you have to be a Jew to to become a Israeli citizen, which is not true. The article I posted shows a systemic discrimination, which is similar to some extent to how Iran treats foreign nationals marrying Iranian citizens.
But as I said earlier, I get your point. I don't disagree that Israel is founded based on a religion, which happens to have only 14m followers around the world. What I disagree with you is the notion that they are the only ones. It's more gray than black or white, and I don't see that much of a difference between Israel, Saudi Arabia and Iran in that regard.

 

[king Ale]

To clarify, of course you can argue against the notion of a Jewish people that is spread all over the globe, but that is the self-identified idea behind the state, which is what matters in this discussion.

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It is completely irrelevant to this discussion whether there actually is a Jewish ethnicity/race/people whatever, what matters is that the state of Israel is built on that assumption rather than a religious one.

How does it explain the fact that the offspring of Jewish parents, if converted to another religion, are not eligible for immigration to Israel?

 

[Maddy]

How does it explain the fact that the offspring of Jewish parents, if converted to another religion, are eligible not for immigration to Israel?

Politics. Quite simply. Law of return used a similar lineage as the Nuremberg Laws, but a turn towards a more conservative/orthodox Israel have changed that.

If conservative/orthodox jews can keep liberal/non-religious jews out of Israel, they strengthen their political as well as ideological position.

Despite what some might think jews tho a small population have a deep power struggle in regards to jewishness. Beta Israel says hi.