Mozilla Firefox or Opera, choose your browser. (13 Viewers)

[Anders]

Ok, feck this Mozilla crap.

It may be waaaay better than IE, but I can't feel the difference - other than Mozilla fecks up layouts/designs.

Mozilla has problems spittin' things out right, and it pisses me off.

FECK MOZILLA! F*ck, I'm a turd, I said feck... f*ck.

Dunno why I did this... I just don't like it, and you wont convert me Martin! You hear me!!! NEVER!!!!

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Martin]

Ah yes, wouldn't you prefer to buy a car at an inflated price that will only run on special fuel, supplied by a single company, Evil Fuel (TM), which in fact is fuel with a octane rating so high that using it in any other car than those manufactured by Evil Car Company (TM) will render it *very* explosive and on average blow up 76% of all cars? You would of course be bound to Evil Car Company (TM) for life, purchasing their car the Contract of Ownership (TM) would state your obligation to buy an Evil Upgrade (TM) every 4 years and there's no way you can get out of it the next 4 decades. Well who wouldn't..

Mozilla follows standards. Standards set by W3C, official stuff that people came together and agreed upon. Instead of joining the party, Evil Car Company (TM) decided to modify the standards just so much that a couple of standard implementations would fail when driving an Evil Car (TM). Then they galantly used their advantage of Total Domination (TM) [also known as the healthy business spirit of monopoly] to push Evil Car (TM) to the consumers and flood the market. Soon enough, people not wanting to be caught out or indeed people running Evil Car Construction (TM) [aka M$ Frontpage] would find their products perform the best when adhering to Evil Car (TM) standards instead of wc3's, like everyone else. Thus the market was flooded with Windshield Upgrade for Evil Car (TM) and related products, few would any longer recognize the official standards because they were being overrun by Evil Car Company (TM).

And a web designer to boot... learn the standards and use them, chump! There's nothing wrong with them and half the time your godly pages will look better because the implementation of a given function is as documented, contrasting that of Creative Unpredictable [Evil] Implementation (TM).

 

[gray]

Martin I hope that was a copy and paste job, you bloody geek :geek:

If you wrote it yourself....










BRAVO! :strong:

 

[gray]

btw Anders, what are some examples of pages that don't render properly??

 

[Anders]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++

And a web designer to boot... learn the standards and use them, chump!

Uhmm, chump! I do use the W3C standards But Mozilla still have problems.

Guess you want proof huh?

Have a look at my personal site. Open one in IE and one in Mozilla.

http://www.anderskarlberg.dk/mcturd

Ok... see the difference, if not I'll tell you what's wrong.

Look at the shoutbox. Notice how the URL and Comment boxes are screwed up.

Look at my 1px horizontal lines... or as Mozilla wants them... 3px horizontal lines. :groan:

And Mozilla can't even make baic CSS work right. Look at my damn scroolbars!!

Mozilla is illiterate!

That's the only problems I've had with my sites, but I've seen plenty of sites my similar or worse problems.

 

[gray]

Not Mozilla's fault you're shite at web design



j/k dude

It's just that i haven't had any problems so far...

 

[Martin]

gray, thank you

Kalle, I don't know what the problem is. Here's your page in two good browsers, IE refused to load the url

http://www.juventuz.com/_temp/kalle-moz.jpg
http://www.juventuz.com/_temp/kalle-opera.jpg

They look exactly the same to me, what's the problem with them?

The shoutbox thing... hehe... you really played into my hands on this one :devil:

Let's see what moz does and let's compare that to your code. Moz does a linebreak after "name" but none of the other captions.

<td class='name'>name:<br><input type='text' name='name' class='smaller'> 
</td> 
<td class='url'>url: <input type='text' name='url'> 
</td> 
</tr> 
<tr> 
<td class='msg' colspan=2>comment: <input type='text' name='message'> 
</td>

Oh good lord! You put a linebreak after "name" but not after the others, yes inconsistent coding simply must be mozilla's fault!

 

[Anders]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++

Kalle, I don't know what the problem is. Here's your page in two good browsers, IE refused to load the url

http://www.juventuz.com/_temp/kalle-moz.jpg
http://www.juventuz.com/_temp/kalle-opera.jpg

They look exactly the same to me, what's the problem with them?

What's the problem? They're not supposed to look like that!!!
Those browsers suck if they cant even read my CSS file correctly. Or is that Mozilla, Opera and other crap simply can't put colors on the scrollbars like IE can? Either way, it sucks. Try opening the site in IE and you will see what I'm talking about.

Shit, you got me on the shoutbox thing. I messed up on that... lol.

But scrollbars and horizontal lines are not displayed correctly in Mozilla

Simple CSS... tsk tsk.

 

[Anders]

And if you're IE browser doesn't work oryou're to affraid to use it... here's a screendump for ya...

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
What's the problem? They're not supposed to look like that!!!
Those browsers suck if they cant even read my CSS file correctly. Or is that Mozilla, Opera and other crap simply can't put colors on the scrollbars like IE can? Either way, it sucks. Try opening the site in IE and you will see what I'm talking about.

Shit, you got me on the shoutbox thing. I messed up on that... lol.

But scrollbars and horizontal lines are not displayed correctly in Mozilla

Simple CSS... tsk tsk.

Color scrollbars? I think you're coding by funky IE standards (TM) again, color scrollbars are not official standard, why don't you check out the actual CSS specification.

Or better yet, use TopStyle to code, it will hold your hand on the choices you make

 

[Anders]

No, I'm not. My CSS is fine...

Well, at least the majority of my visitors will get the site displayed correctly.

Thank god people still use IE instead of silly-design-fecking-Mozilla-wannabee-good-browser-but-is-nothing-but-crap-freeware

 

[Martin]

The scrollbar crap is IE CSS only, dude..

 

[Anders]

Yes... proves my point. My CSS is fine. Mozilla is just crap for not havin' that function.

Really, I can see some advantages in using Mozilla, but overall I think IE is better. It's hard to explain, I just don't like Mozilla. Thankfully alot of people feel the same way, so i wont have to worry to much about my code.

 

[Martin]

IE added that "feature" without consulting with anybody, that's how they do business. It's not an official standard, it's a whim.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++

Really, I can see some advantages in using Mozilla, but overall I think IE is better.

Please try to elaborate, even if it's in point form. What is it that u like about IE? The popups? The lack of expandability or customisation?

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
I just don't like Mozilla. Thankfully alot of people feel the same way

That's crap. A lot of people don't feel the same way. It's because all computers these days come with IE installed, and IE is heavily integrated into their default operating system. Whenever people come over to my place, I have them convinced that Mozilla is the best within 1 minute, literally.

I would put money on the fact that if Mozilla shipped with Windows rather than IE, I'd have to spend a lot more than a minute trying to convince people that IE's the better browser.

 

[Anders]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
IE added that "feature" without consulting with anybody, that's how they do business. It's not an official standard, it's a whim.

Oh yes, making that feature, to the delight of many designers and users makes them evil.

It should be an offcial standard. Perhaps there's alot of people who doesn't care (aka nerds and blind people), but there's also many who do. Designers for example... there's nothing uglier than a plain old scrollbar inside an iframe.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Please try to elaborate, even if it's in point form. What is it that u like about IE? The popups? The lack of expandability or customisation?

Ok, pop-ups... after I cleaned up my PC, gettin' rid of all the spy/adware I don't see to many pop-ups. Really I don't. It doesn't bother me that much anymore.

Customisation? I've never felt any urge to customize my browser. I use it for browsing the net... nothing else. Just like I use my coffeemachine to make coffee and not watch television on... I've got a television for that.

Apart from the pop-ups and customisation stuff, both of them remains just browsers. I happen to like IE, so I'll keep using it, cuz Mozilla doesn't display all sites correctly and that bugs me. And yes Martin, I know some sites aren't displayed correctly cuz of the standards crap. But I can't do anything about it... other than use IE when I wanna see how a website is intended to look like.

++ [ originally posted by Gray ] ++
That's crap. A lot of people don't feel the same way. It's because all computers these days come with IE installed, and IE is heavily integrated into their default operating system. Whenever people come over to my place, I have them convinced that Mozilla is the best within 1 minute, literally.

I would put money on the fact that if Mozilla shipped with Windows rather than IE, I'd have to spend a lot more than a minute trying to convince people that IE's the better browser.

OK, if Mozilla is so frikin' good... try explainig the stats from my website. (the juventus one, haven't got stats on my personal)

MSIE v6.X -----------------79,4%
MSIE v5.X -----------------19,2%
Mozilla----------------------0,86%
MSIE v4.X ------------------0,33%
Opera v7.X-----------------0,1%
Andre browsere-----------0,01%
MS FrontPage v4.X--------0,01%
Mozilla/Netscape----------0,008%
Opera v6.X-----------------0,007%
Netscape v6.X-------------0,004%
Netscape v4.X-------------0,003%
BorderManager v3.X------0,002%
AvantGo v3.X---------------0,0006%

Almost 99% is IE. Now I know what you're gonna say... that's cuz microsoft is evil and it's installed on every windows machine out there. But nobody is forcing anybody to use it. If Mozilla is that much better, why haven't we all converted? It's free, just download it... cuz they haven't heard about it? Well then Mozilla is doing a piss-poor job in marketing.

Basicly I don't see the point in discussing this. I don't like it, I don't use it. And it's just a browser... A very simple tool. I never really understood why people is so hyped up about something so insignificant.

Insignificant you say? Yes! But what about your safety on the web? I haven't had one single security problem with IE, and it's not like Microsoft is this evil company selling me worthless crap. It works just fine, and with the windows-update I feel even better. They correct errors and takes care of the security as well. And if I'm still worried, I still got my firewall and anti-virus.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++

OK, if Mozilla is so frikin' good... try explainig the stats from my website. (the juventus one, haven't got stats on my personal)

Almost 99% is IE. Now I know what you're gonna say... that's cuz microsoft is evil and it's installed on every windows machine out there. But nobody is forcing anybody to use it. If Mozilla is that much better, why haven't we all converted?

Because most people can't be bothered to convert, because they haven't had a taste of how good it is. Sure, they've heard, but nobody really understands until they see/feel it in action.

And I think you're wrong when you say "nobody is forcing anybody to use it", because most laymen who don't know much about computers thinks there's only one browser out there. If you call up any company and say you're having a problem with their website, they'll say "Okay, I'll try to help you out. First, open Internet Explorer" etc. etc.

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
It's free, just download it... cuz they haven't heard about it? Well then Mozilla is doing a piss-poor job in marketing.

Why would they want to do any marketing? It's a bloody open-source, non-profit project ffs. They're not aiming to make money, they just want to programme a browser and share the technology with other people.

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
Insignificant you say? Yes! But what about your safety on the web? I haven't had one single security problem with IE, and it's not like Microsoft is this evil company selling me worthless crap. It works just fine, and with the windows-update I feel even better. They correct errors and takes care of the security as well. And if I'm still worried, I still got my firewall and anti-virus.

Yes, that's the point. You have to download a new patch/upgrade every week or two, and Windows insists that it installs all this crap. If you don't install it, sooner or later you'll have a huge queue of updates waiting to be installed :groan:

 

[Martin]

I don't have the patience to argue with you, Kalle. I'm just gonna wait until you realize it yourself. When you come up with stuff like "mozilla has piss poor marketing" I can just see I'm not getting anywhere would you. How on earth would a non profit open source project that relies on volunteers and probably very limited funding ever come up with the money to plaster their logo on every billboard in town, I mean what were you thinking??

Meanwhile Graham is doing a great job trying to go over the points with you. But I'll just take the scrollbar thing. Ok, we're thinking rationally now. How is the scrollbar relevant to the page design? Different browsers work in different ways, a scrollbar is part of the browser, it can change with the skin you choose. It's NOT part of the page design, you don't code it yourself and if you do use frames, you just have to live with the fact that you can't change it. Ok, so IE decides to allow you to mess around with the scrollbar, by that they are also closing the door on all other browsers, it's now an IE only standard, which is exactly how MS like to do business. Look man, I'm trying to say that in my opinion, the best product should win, no matter who manufactures it. In no way is that happening thanks to MS' monopoly. And when you're arguing there's nothing wrong with it, I'm stunned. Put yourself in the shoes of a company that has a great product, a product that wins all kinds of praise from independent tests, magazines, experts etc. But you can't push it because MS is controlling the market. How fair is that to you? Just think about it, man..

Btw, for all the confused people, in Mozilla, from the drop down menu, choose Help > For Internet Explorer Users. It's not the ultimate guide but it's a nice effort IMO.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
Meanwhile Graham is doing a great job trying to go over the points with you.

Thanks

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
I don't have the patience to argue with you, Kalle.

Yes, I'm surprised that I have the patience myself... but it's... frustrating... how blind someone can be

 

[Anders]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

Yes, I'm surprised that I have the patience myself... but it's... frustrating... how blind someone can be

Amazing how much effort you guys put into defending a little piece of stupid software.

Good, you guys don't wanna discuss it... neither do I. But I think it's funny how you basicly call me stupid and pad eachothers nerdy backs.

This is just like the Win-Mac fight. Both sides are good. There's advantages and crap in both of them, and what's best? Whatever the user feels comfortable with. People got different ways and habits, even when it comes to something as simple as browsing.

Anyways, I can see you guys are really irritated or something, so I'll leave you alone.