Most Naturally Gifted Italian Player (5 Viewers)

denco · Jan 16, 2003

Again a post which attacks me without merit, someone asked if Baggio is not interesting then who is, and I gave examples of players whose lives will be interesting to ppl who like those sort of thing

I do no give a good godamned about Baggio's life, I am noly interested in him as a footballer and frankly you are beginning to bore me

mate · Jan 16, 2003

Which sort of things? I don't see any relation... as I know Baggio life is very normal is his career who is very interesting...

Anycase you are the one who is always start attakking...

...and you began boring me 4 quite a while, actually.

Martin · Jan 16, 2003

Alright now, gentlemen..

Vinman · Jan 21, 2003

When ???

What time ???

I have been looking and seen nothing so far

denco · Jan 21, 2003

I am at a loss here how I attacked Baggio this time, all I said was that players like Asprilla, Edmundo , Maradona etc were interesting players , when someone said if Baggio was not interesting then who is

Maybe we should just change the name of this forum to Baggioforum as his fans do get away with a lot of stuff on here and he does not even play for Juventus, now thats what i call influence

Any whiff of criticism of the Saint is met with such venom and the fact of the matter is that Baggio is always shoved in our faces all the time, that you will get people who are not fans of his that will resent it and not say something positive

There are ppl on here who did not grow up adoring Baggio and if you are always going to talk about him then be prepared for crticism

mate · Jan 21, 2003

It was the day I posted this message... It was in "rai sport satellite", a channel of rai international, if I'm not wrong around 8 pm, italian time.
I have no clue if they will do it again... but can be that they will schow it when ther's not live sport event, so keep on checking out, is worth it... all the video tapes about Baggio that you can buy in internet end around 2000, and they are anycase not well done like this special.

I tought it was finisced...
Well if you find Edumundo and Asprilla interesting good 4 you, but they have almost no points in which they can be connected with Baggio, so if somebody asked you "who's interesting if Baggio is not" maybe they are not the right names to do.

The title of the trade is "the most gifted Italian player" who do you want peaple to talk about????? We went out of topic speaking about Tv schows ecc... but thats happen nearly in all trade, so....

If you don't want peaple to mention Baggio why did you open this trade? I don't undersand...

Darin · Jan 22, 2003

poor baggio leave him alone the both of u !

mate · Jan 22, 2003

Well in this trade it was impossible not to speak about him it was about "the most gifted Italian player". And nobody else in Italy was never able to score goals like him and to dribble a whole team till his team penalty area to the the goal. Than he had many injurys and problems, and maybe he could not use his gift at 100%, but at least he is the only one who had it.

I just think that denco schould give up "running after" every post who speaks about Baggio, cause anycase everybody already know wath he thinks...

denco · Jan 22, 2003

The fact that I called Edmundo and Maradona etc has nothing at all to do with Baggio, all i said is that there are footballers whose lifestyle is interesting whether good or bad and it was not in any relation to Baggio

As for the dribbling of the whole field , please give it a rest will you, Baggio is a very talented guy but you are overrating his achievements and thats what I do not like

You speak as if going past players is a criteria for gifted players, if you have the pace, then you can do it easy, are you going to say Thierry Henry is more gifted that Raul , just because Thierry with his pace can skip past players while Raul cannot do that?

I have been watching football since the 70s my friend and believe me I havee seen lots of players come and go so excuse me if I do not get impressed with your hero worship of a player who is a great individual but not a great team player as his record will show.

If you doubt me tell Baggio to bring out his team medals and you will see that he has 2 scudettos and 1 uefa cup and the 2 scudettos , he was a bit part player

You provide goals and all that with links , yes they are gr8 goals but thats not how to judge a player cos if I put the goals of Matthew Le tissier on here, he would look like a world beater

Besides talking of scorer of great goals go take a good look at Bergkamp's collection

You mention Baggio is a 1000 times better than Zola , I know you are exaggerating but its still an insult to Zola as he was not given the same opportunities as our beloved Baggio both in Italy and The Nt as he never played for the really big teams but while he was at Parma, they were fighting for the scudetto , where they not?

Baggio is good , great even, but most gifted Italian, I do not think so, just probably the one with the biggesy heart as he totally believes in his own ability and thats probably his greatest strength as there are equally gifted players or more gifted Italian players but they don't have the same belief

mate · Jan 22, 2003

Well, skipping players, "dribbling of the whole field", ecc.. is definitly something with what you can value a player talent, especially cause just very few of them can do it. Anycase Baggio is not "just" this... he's the after war italian who scored more goals, and this without beeing a proper foward and spending nearly 1/4 of his career injured. Than he's amazing with free kicks and penaltyes, he's a wonderful "assist man"and he's the only one (Italian) I ever saw who does exately what he wants with the ball, it looks like it sticks to his feet. And all this are "GIFTS".
You can say you get more impressed by a well done takle, a wonderful goalkeeper save, or something like that but that's just your personal opinion, and does not mean that who like more this kind of qualities is overreting them.
Than I know Baggio's not perfect... he's not good with headers and he's not that kind of players who does pressing and this staff, he had many limits cause his physical proplems, and he may had also some personality problems.
But about his "gifts" I'm not overrating him at all!!!
And I'm also sure that he didn't use them all... without all the problems he had he may could do even better than he did.
If he's not the "most gifted" who is it?
He's "just probably the one with the biggesy heart as he totally believes in his own ability and thats probably" cause he was considered a "soccer fenomeno" till he was a little kid and media started speaking about him when he did'n even play 4 any professional team so probably he realized about his gifts very soon. He schowed to have a "graeat strength" also, especially cause he got trought 4 knee surgeryes and so many others stops, the first one at 15 and he never gave up even when at 17 he totaly destroyed his knee, was told to quit with soccer and had to stay 2 years without playing, but that do not mean he's less gifted (just his knees actually are). If it has to mean something it means that he may had more potential that what we saw.
It looks like you're sayng that he could be not the most gifted cause maybe sombody else could have the same potential... but nobody ever did what he did, and betwen the famos players nobody had so many problems like him, so...
Could be that there were some others "little fenomeno" like him, who 4 some reasons had to stop playing and never emerged, but we will never know it...
Anycase I don't think so... maybe in Africa or Brazil ther's a lot, but here they are so quick to "discover" young talents... and if there was somebody gifted like Baggio, I'm sure somebody started notice him even when he was so young like they did with him. (btw now they discovered a young boy -around 10 years- who is already called "the new Baggio", in Italy works like this

)

I am agree that Zola is grate too, IMO (from the recents players) he's the second after Baggio, but he never schowed what Roby did, so considering also that he didn't have all the physical problems of him and considering that do not results that Zola has any "psycological sickness" I suppose that he's less gifted. Zola and Mancini maybe didn't get all the attention they deserved, but that's normal cause they played in the Baggio period, and Roby began to be the most popolar player in Italy from around 1988/1989 and he still is it now that is 2003. If they wuold played in a different "era" maybe they could have more consideration, but globally nothing will change; Rivera 4 example was "the king" in the past, but when it's coming to choose "the bests ever" he is always after Roby in Italy and he's not even considered abroad.
And btw Rivera is also the first who says that Roby is gratest, like I guess every Italian player does...

About the fact that Zola had not all the oportunity of Baggio in the NT, I remind you that Baggio was excluded by Sacchi 4 "personal problems" after USA 94, when he was just 27 and defenitly the best player of the world. After 94 all that he played was France 98.
Zola was (on pair with Casiraghi) the "basic" attak of the NT from 94 to 98 and played Euro 96 (+ the QE) and all the quilify 4 France 98, doing also very well (remember England-Italy?

). The only unfair traitment was maybe his exlusion from 98 WC, cause he was the one who took Italy there while Baggio and Del Piero nearly did not play in the quilify matchs, but they went to the WC. But they both had such a good season (Baggio 22 goals, Del Piero 21) that Maldini could't do anything different, probably if he knew how Del Piero was going to suck he wuould prefer to take Zola instead of him, but he couldn't prevent the future... cause those was DP best serie A season ever.
Anycase you can't compare the unfair exlusions Zola had with what happened to Baggio with Sacchi, and with all the matchs he missed 4 injures, "personal problems" with the coachs and "misterious reasons" both in the NT and in serie A.

denco · Jan 24, 2003

Mate , you have raised some good points, but almost every player has had injury problems not just Baggio, I do not know what you mean by personal problems so no comments on that

I tell you what , I watch players very closely and watch for special skills and all that

When I talk about dribbling past players, it is a skill but you do not have to be extra special to do it and because you do not dribble past players does not mean that you are not extra special

I have seen clips and matches of players who can dribble past 3 or 4 players and players like Giggs, Ginola, Gazza, Dp, Garrincha etc can all do that for fun while some very special players like Cruyff, Platini and even Pele do not go about dribbling the whole field

You mentioned Zola and Mancini and I do think that Baggio overshadowed them not only because of his skills but also his clout with the media and the fact that he was playing for Juventus

What I do mean is I do think if Zola was a bit better looking and was more charismatic(image and all and believe me that is important) and was playing for Milan, he would have given Baggio more problems for a starting position. I mean when Vialli was the golden boy he was chosen ahead of Baggio because he was charismatic and even now Baggio is having problems getting into the Nt because of the clout and charisma of Dp and Totti

Like you mentioned sometime ago that Juve put pressure on Maldini to play Dp ahead of Baggio in the wc who knows if they did the same in 98, cos lets face it Baggio was nothing in the first 3 matches and for most of the game against Nigeria, and Sacchi could easily have played Zola

A lot of players have had carrer threatening injuries like Pele had one just before 70 wc, was kicked out of 66 and 62 as well, while Maradona always had problems with his knees, and his ankle was broken is Spain but these players still went on to win the wc, something Baggio never did and they also won lots of things for their clubs again lacking in Baggio's C. V

Baggio is/was a fantastic player but your comments about scoring all those goals while not being a proper forward, what does that mean? At Juve , Trapatoni's side was made to make Baggio score a lot of goals as Vialli and Ravanelli did all the donkey work on the wings while baggio could ghost in and score, he played all the free kicks and penalties which does add to your goal count, his responsibilities as per defending were non existent as he always had a free role to go whereever he wanted at Juvenmtus while at Bologna and Brescia , they practically built a team to suit him with every other player doing the hard work, so you have to consider that as well

I never saw all the early Italian players but from the ones that I saw from 82 onwards though you may not like to hear it , the most natural gifted that I have seen are Dp, Zola and Di Canio, and I do not mean they are better than Baggio because they are not but for natural talent they have more, its just that in Dp's case , he has a very fragile mentality and thats why he fails in big matches and he lost his way a bit, while Zola never reached the top because of circumstances beyond his control e.g Maradona etc while Di Canio just misplaced his talents

Dj Juve · Jan 24, 2003

paramatti has allot of charisma....

mate · Jan 24, 2003

I don't belive you didn't give up

You really have an obsession with Baggio!

I was talking about ITALIAN PLAYERS, and Maradona (did he really had 4 knees surgeryes?), Pelè, Van Basten, Ronaldo, ecc... are not. Nor of the ITALIAN famos (about the not famos who did not emerged we will never know so it's unuseful to discuss on it) players had so much injuryes like Baggio.

I imagined you saw dp dribble 3 or 4 players in your dreams but in the real world never happened, if we do not consider the training matchs against the primavera.

DP and Totti charismatic :LOL:

Did you mean 94?
Ther's a big difference! In 94 Baggio was the best player of the world, he was the one who took Italy to the WC and he was the only one who could do the difference, like than he did.
Del Piero sucked also in the few quilify match he played, he had a very good season beeing the 3° topscorer after Ronaldo and Baggio but he did nothing 4 the NT.
And than Baggio is Baggio.

Of course, and it's the same 4 all the big champions, who are playing in his role, or you want to tell me that the others defend and do pressing?

:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
I think Baggio did something very bad to you in a past life!!!
To put him down it's a mission 4 you, but I don't really understand who do you want to convince... not who saw him and those players of course... But I guess you have no chance also with who never saw a soccer game in his life... it will be enought to have a look in FIFA web site to see how he's always in the bests ever (and those guys are not even mentioned) and to hear at what Gianni Rivera recently said when he was asked if he is still interest of soccer:"Roberto Baggio is the only one 4 who is still worth it to look at soccer, when he will quit it will be the end". So why do they have to listen of the "personal ideas" of a guy with a Del Piero avatar who they don't even know?

I think you schould give up putting Baggio down, it's loosing time, cause if all the world consider him one of the best of soccer history there must be a reason... If this make you feel bad, just avoid the argoment, cause you cannot do anything to change it!

Ther's anything bad with "can't seeing Baggio" but is just ridicolous to try to find words to explane that he was not so good, cause you can't pretend that all the world is wrong and you have the truth...

BTW today in "la gazzetta dello sport" newspaper there was a very well done articole about who is the most gifted italian player AFTER BAGGIO (nobody "objective" will put him in discussion) of the last 20 year... they came out saying that is Mancini.

Maybe we can start a discussion on this... "who do we prefer between Mancini and Zola", in this case I will listen to you and I will be happy to know your opinion cause you are not "prevented" with them (or at list I think so) and cause maybe you saw more matches of Zola than me since he plays in England.
But you don't need to try to put Baggio down every single day, everybody already know your opinion, and anycase changing story talking bad of a player is impossible, so you are just loosing time...

Vinman · Jan 24, 2003

Can we settle on the fact that Baggio AND Del Piero are great players ????

Layce Erayce · Jan 24, 2003

i have a q. if di canio is really so gifted, why did trap say there'd have to be a bubonic plague to pick him?

mate · Jan 24, 2003

4 denco even Baiocco is more talented than Baggio...
It's mistery how Baggio was voted the 4° player of soccer history, and how in Italy nobody ever had a discussion about the fact that Baggio was the most talented ever... Maybe all the world but denco is crazy...

denco · Jan 24, 2003

Vinman actually it is not about the 2 of them its the fact that Mate does not want to realise that I do not think Baggio as being as good as he makes him out to be

He seems to think this is some sort of personal crusade of mine which it is not, it just what i have seen

Mate does not like Dp and that is a fact as he has never praised him , he actually rates players like Cassano, Miccollli and saying Dp is comparable to Inzaghi in terms of play

I never said Baggio was not the best Italian player , I said I do not think he is the most naturally gifted and not too many people on here disagree

But Mate will bring up all sorts of minor accomplishments, Fifa lists and Internet votes things which are easily manipulated

Who cares what the media says because if you believe the media in England then Beckham is the best player in the world or tomorrow it could be Michael Owen

If anybody who followed the early Dp in Juventus when he burst on the scene with some magnificent plays and golas in the Cl, the complet foolery he made of a Rangers player who was so embarrassed he kicked him seconds later and got a red card, then you will know why I think he really had natural gift

The off the cuff things that Zola and Di canio , do cannot be thought and to base you whole discussion on what other ppl say like the media who have totally helped Baggio in his carreer is ridiculous

I judge players on what I see and I do not have to love or hate Baggio to say that I think I have seen more talented players from Italy

As for Mancini he was supremely talented but his repertoir was mainly back flicks and no I do not think he is more naturally gifted than Baggio in any way at all

Mate yes Dp has not really helped Italy to do anything but neither has Baggio as coming second is not good enough for a country like Baggio

The fact of the matter is though it is sad to say Italy in my football watching days have never produced that player who makes a difference to the Nt, that player who can both create or score goals , and whether you like it or not Baggio is one of those very good players who needs team mates, he is not a Maradona, not a Platini, not a Pele

He is in the same category as Bergkamp, Mattheus and the like.

This month's magazine said Baggio was a legend but will forever be remembered as the player who missed a penalty in the wc final, now I think his career deserves better than that but Mate outside Italy, not a lot of viewers will agree with you that he is the greatest ever as you seem to think

denco · Jan 24, 2003

Since when Did Trap pick talented players and while we are on the subject , how many caps did Baggio win under Trap?

Mate is not a personal vendetta against your beloved, its a s simple as this he is not all that in my eyes when it comes to world football and I am finding excuses like this manager does not like him, he has had 300 knee surgeries a bit lame.

mate · Jan 24, 2003

You don't need to repeat your opinion about Baggio....
Before you attakked his personality... and that's also quite funny cause you don't know him.
But know to deny also his talent it's absurd!
Don't you think you are spending too much time trying to put him down? Take an easyest mission... to justify that you don't think Baggio is talented is impossible!

denco · Jan 24, 2003

Now this is slander and please poin out the post where I attacked his personality

You are fan and its is hopeless having a converasation with a fan as you do not want to hear the truth as a non fanatic will tell you

I have never denied his talent and because I think some players are more naturally talented is not denying his talent

I am not just an" oh I cannot leave with Baggio" kind of person, bet you have a poster in your room

Most Naturally Gifted Italian Player (5 Viewers)

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