Moment of Clarity (9 Viewers)

Dan · Dec 17, 2005

ßömßärdiër said:

To me, the world also looks like the work of a tormented God. If we include all major religions, and include all cults, little religions, rainforest tribe religions, we can conclude there can only be one correct one, lets say if God did exist right?

We then have to make a desicion between thousands of religion to choose which we think is the right one. Its a sick game.

Not to mention, what does the man living in the Amazon rainforest who has no concept of religion do. Suppose christianity is the correct religion, if he has never even heard of it in his life and has no concept of religion by no fault of his own, is he going to hell by default? But his circumstances were given to him by God- it was ' unjust '. Would a kind benovolent God allow this to happen to his subjects?

and if God is a super being, surely he has our lives already mapped out and knows whether we are going to go down the correct pious road or not? Its a redundant test.

Oh and i forgot to say something previously to Tifosi Lou on the subject of religion: Your ' tinmen ' theroy from aquanias has one hole: You say that if God came to earth and made himself visible, then it would cease to be a choice correct? But surely, by him giving Aquanis the ability to find this knowledge out, he is basically giving mankind the answer? So wouldnt it again cease to become a choice?

Cronios · Dec 17, 2005

The 12Greek Gods of Olympus is a fine exemple,
many years BC this religion started to fade away,
the vast majority of Greek scientists were in essence agnostic,
they were dennying everything and seeked proofs,
orators was the hit of the era,men smth like the today lowyers, wich dedicated their lifes to similar discussions,
they were the profesional talkers of the world
and they were far more critic that we will ever be,
those guys could pursuade any of us that we are elephants,
one day one Jews guy(Peter or Paul) walked in, debated with them and pursuade them all in their native language that he is a student of the Son of God,
was he a simple man?
Wasnt he enlightened?
If he wasnt enlightened then it means he had proofs,
reports from his homeland that prooved the historical existance of Christ and His achievements.
2,000 years from then, those proofs were forgotten by men,
those proofs were altered by men,
those proofs were hidden by men,
u have the right to denny them
or believe, its ur choice...

Seven · Dec 17, 2005

Dan said:

To me, the world also looks like the work of a tormented God. If we include all major religions, and include all cults, little religions, rainforest tribe religions, we can conclude there can only be one correct one, lets say if God did exist right?

We then have to make a desicion between thousands of religion to choose which we think is the right one. Its a sick game.

Not to mention, what does the man living in the Amazon rainforest who has no concept of religion do. Suppose christianity is the correct religion, if he has never even heard of it in his life and has no concept of religion by no fault of his own, is he going to hell by default? But his circumstances were given to him by God- it was ' unjust '. Would a kind benovolent God allow this to happen to his subjects?

and if God is a super being, surely he has our lives already mapped out and knows whether we are going to go down the correct pious road or not? Its a redundant test.

Oh and i forgot to say something previously to Tifosi Lou on the subject of religion: Your ' tinmen ' theroy from aquanias has one hole: You say that if God came to earth and made himself visible, then it would cease to be a choice correct? But surely, by him giving Aquanis the ability to find this knowledge out, he is basically giving mankind the answer? So wouldnt it again cease to become a choice?

Malin génie.

Seven · Dec 17, 2005

Dan said:

You, Burke, were the last person I would expect a post like this from.

I agree with you. This is also what Seven means when he says religious people are scared- as in, since this is an answer to the biggest questions asked.

Its very strange you also say this aswell, because I was looking at the moon with my friend yesterday and we had a discussion about religion aswell. We discussed whether in 2,000-3,000 years people will look back at the religions today and call them ' make believe ' like we do to the Gods of the Roman and Greek times. People no doubt believed equally as strongly in them, and perhaps in the far future people will look at christianity and call Jesus a make believe prophet.

Like I have said over and over again:

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ANCIENT GREEK MYTHS.

sallyinzaghi · Dec 17, 2005

[/off topic]
Dan: May I ask, why is your signature "Sultan of Brunei?"

Cronios · Dec 17, 2005

Dan said:

-These are the mistakes of human, no God,
God never said make a certain religion,
this is how human enterpetated it,
God send his human messengers in every single corner of the earth(even the amazon) so the humans could know the basic guidelines, wich are similar to the vast majority of religions...
Church is not God, dont blame churches decisions to God,

-our lives are not mapped out,we have the right to chooce and act by our own free will

-God made his self visible but u still have the choice to deny Him

wasnt this a brilliant plan?

sallyinzaghi · Dec 17, 2005

Seven said:

Fair enough, that sounds reasonable. Its just that - well dont take this the wrong way - the law of probability and and religions consisting of myths (and not all of them do) - to me is not enough to argue the non existence of God. But each to his own, religion is a complicated matter anyway

Dan · Dec 17, 2005

Cronios said:

-These are the mistakes of human, no God,
God never said make a certain religion,
this is how human enterpetated it,
God send his human messengers in every single corner of the earth(even the amazon) so the humans could know the basic guidelines, wich are similar to the vast majority of religions...
Church is not God, dont blame churches decisions to God,

-our lives are not mapped out,we have the right to chooce and act by our own free will

-God made his self visible but u still have the choice to deny Him

wasnt this a brilliant plan?

I could be more willing to accept a God non related to religion. So anyway, which is the right religion?

Dan · Dec 17, 2005

sallyinzaghi said:

The sultan of Brunei is incredibly rich

Seven · Dec 17, 2005

sallyinzaghi said:

Agreed. But people who believe shouldn't act like they know it all (this isn't aimed at you btw). Because for all I see, they are nothing different than people who lived thousands of years ago. They aren't any more evolved than those. So they should also stop acting as if monotheism is a more evolved form of religion than polytheism.

Cronios · Dec 17, 2005

Dan said:

My friend, i m afraid only God Himself can answer this question for a certaintly,
maybe all in their essence, but none in their details...

sallyinzaghi · Dec 17, 2005

Seven said:

You have a point there. Although, one can argue that - (if you disregard the matter of monotheism and polytheism and focus on existence of god) - the ancient people themselves believed in God, and until today people still do, therefore it is in the nature of man to believe in God for God has created them in need of God and therefore... God exists.

Okay now that I read that again its a bit complicated, but the arabic term of the concept Im trying to convey is "Fitrah"; in case you wanna look it up some time

Dan · Dec 17, 2005

Cronios said:

Exactly- so life is essentialy a game of chance, a gamble. If we say there are 50 religions, and one is God's religion, there is a 1/50 chance you get into heaven. Being born into this world then, would be almost certainly set up for a fiery afterlife.

Snoop · Dec 17, 2005

this arguement is no sense.I just don't like the way you guys are fanatic about religion. Tom and Seven you too are fanatic Anti-religion,it's the pleasure for you guys to join these arguements everytime a religion argument is there,you guys like make fun of Jesus,Pope,mother Teresa and everything related to religion..

I am a believer,but not a true christian,I belive there is God or something(power) that created time and space, but I don't argue with anyoene on it's existence because I don't know a shit about it,just you all don't know anything about it.

you know why I am still a christian? because I like the Chrisitians Life,I like the Bible, I like the good messages in it.comparing to other books,this book is all about peace,it never ever supports the wars or fight or revenge.that's why I like it,not just because I was born and raised Christian.I love the the bible,because it gives me the freedom to choose the way I want to live,it doesn't put pressure on me. So I tell you something,if there is a God or not,If Jesus is son of God or not,I prefer again Bible,because of it's messages,and not because I am scared because it is the truth or not,or if I will go to hell if I don't obey God.

this is the way a man should see the religion,and live the way he wants,and not the way he is forced to live because the fear of God.

so why we still argue about it?we know that we can't prove anything,so keep your beliefs to yourself,it should always be like that,between you and your God (if you belive there is)..

Cronios · Dec 17, 2005

Dan said:

but what if there are 50 ways to reach God?
maybe all those paths are valid
and God will estimate ur tries because He knows what have u being going through and how u did reacted

Slagathor · Dec 17, 2005

IN DEBATE

Will God survive book-week? It's a question risen with uncomfort in some circles. I decided to climb onto the roof and ask Him myself.
"Book-week? What is that?"
I briefly explained it to him. And: "You're the theme of this week. All books sold are about You in one way or another"
"Nobody ever tells me anything. What hole are you calling from anyway?"
"The Netherlands"
"The Netherlands? Oh wait, I think I see it. There's a cloud of shoreless debate hanging over it"
"That's it, yes"
"Well that gives me very little chance of survival then. If my sources are right, that's the land where every subject is discussed and examined from every angle without end until everybody gets bored with it and you never hear from it again. Things are debated to death down there, the odds aren't in my favour. Anything else?"
"What do You think about it anyway?"
"About what?"
"Well, do You think You exist?"
"Geez, I don't know... Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends on my mood, really. Can't say I care much"
"The writers Kousbroek and Komrij are convinced You don't"
"I can imagine why they would think that. Well, as long as people write about me, then maybe I at least partially exist"
"Partially is impossible. Just like being partially pregnant"
"Pregnant? What is that supposed to be?"
"Having a baby"
"Oh God save me. That was once, never again"

Remco Campert, columnist in 'De Volkskrant', March 1997
Translation: Erik

Dan · Dec 17, 2005

Cronios said:

Then why do religions spark wars?

Alucard Belmont · Dec 17, 2005

how come there's no messenger of god in modern age?(jesus, muhammad,etc..)
because it's so hard for them to convince people unlike the old day.

Alucard Belmont · Dec 17, 2005

[off topic]
good way to win diplomatic war in civilization 4 is to adopt free religion civics as soon as possible.

ßöмßäяðîëя · Dec 17, 2005

Alucard Belmont said:

People are smarter, more literate, can think for themselves.

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