Moment of Clarity (2 Viewers)

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I start this thread not out of thought to provoke a much heated religious debate, but one rather to rather provoke a thought of things outside of our world.

I went outside just now to have the, hopefully, last cigarette of my life, and also this helps because I don't have any more in my house, am too lazy to buy more, and am so poor that I don't have the 3.75 to buy more Camels. With this said, he I go.

I was just standing outside and looking at the full moon, here in Martinsburg there is a fresh layer of snow covering the ground, and the night is fully clear. I live outside of the city, so I have no lights near my home, I can see the stars and what not in absolute brilliance and without any remote visual nuisance. I sat there for a couple of minutes and took this for granted, as we all do. I then realized, how can one really believe in a "God?" How does one "make" a planet?

I understand that the theory I have heard most states that a great "being" created them from nothing basically, then rested, not unlike many of us would after meticulously making something so marvelous, like a paper airplane.

But I soon realised in what alcoholics, not unlike myself, call a "moment of clarity." A moment when some great thing suddenly makes a minute bit of sense. So I ask you, how can a book or something made 2000 years ago even attempt to present a semi-rational bit of evidence that states where this planet comes from? How does one do it, how did they do it?

I was earlier watching the History Channel and the program was on the exploration of space. I started thinking, if one star in our galaxy, our sun has planets, and one of these planets can support life, then what about the other billions of stars in our solar system?

If one out of a billion galaxys has a star like ours, and one out of a billion of those has planetary systems, and one out of a billion of those systems has a planet that can support life, and one out of a billion of those has life, there are literally billions upon billions of plaets out there that are +/- just like ours.

Then I thought about it from a religious point of view. Where in the Bible or Qu'an does it talk about space and the millions of galaxys some spirit created in addition to ours? Then I thought, ohh wait, it doesn't. So I propose to you this, what if there is no "God?" What if instead of it creating us, we created this being, to explain to ourselves how to accept things? If you think about it, many ancient cultures talked about the stars as things from great battles and that the stars are where their spirits end up, like Orion from mythology or Gemini, and we dismiss these as idiotic practices from cultures past.

So what if all of the religion in this world is wrong? What if everything in the Bible is incorrect, not about Jesus being a prophet, but about creation and et cetera.

What if we created a "God" to explain our world because to us, to all of us, what is more scary than the thought that we are absolutely alone in this world? What if this is it? No Heaven, no Hell, none of that, just you die and that is it. Because this is what I have come to think, that this is all it is, this is life, this is what we do, and at the end of our life we lie in a hole in the ground and BOOM, nothing.

Sounds like some pretty crazy shit to me. Also think about this, the Catholic church hundreds of years ago was a lot more strict than it is now, it has let its rules lax and has aged with time. But in recent times the Church has seen many members of its following pass on and dwindle. Many people might look at this and say that it is because the world has become more devilish and hateful, all kinds of BS like that.

BUT, the fact is that people are waking up, they are looking out there and seeing that all of that nonsense from ages past has come unravelled, now there is a lot of scientific fact that shows how the planets were formed from the explosion of another star, from other celestial bodies.

So, just think about it.

(I used the Catholic Church as an example because most of my religious knowledge comes from Catholic teachings and Catholic school, I would have used maybe Islam if I had a greater grasp of its teachings.)

 

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[Zé Tahir]

Actually Burke, in the Qur'an God mentions of a different planet where people exist and that one day, when He wishes we will meet them.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

That's cool, I did not know that.

 

[Beto]

The Quiche Mayan Popol Vuh mentions an Underworld and an upper world similar to heaven and hell.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I don't know what that is, but okay.

 

[Beto]

The Popol Vuh is like a Mayan Bible

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Ahhhhhhh, I understand.

 

[HelterSkelter]

lets kick this off with something that extreme once sang :

"a once upon a time fairy tale's fraud
did god make man or man make god"


you put forward some very logical arguments burke.and i cant deny that ive never thought about the very same thing,and there was a time when i was thinking along the lines of God not existing.ive had even more confusing thoughts in my mind such as :

a)how can we be sure that the religion WE fellow is correct?i as a muslim think that my religion is correct,a christian would think that his religion is correct,a jew would think that his religion is correct and so forth,we all this confusion about what IS the right religion,maybe there is no religion at all,because simple,there might not be any god at all.

b)what is the basic root of god?surely there is a starting point of everything.just like a plant takes root from a seed,a child takes root from semen,there IS a basic start point of everything,and maybe the same goes for God.where did he come from?if he created us,then who created him?what is the BASIC,first most point of evolution in this universe?

c)if God does exist,then where is he when people get killed?when women get raped?why does he not save his own creation when he loves it?

frankly,what ive figured out is that religion cannot be explained or defined by Logic.you're not talking science over here,you're talking about something superntaural,and yes science CANNOT explain any supernatural phenomenon in any way whatsoever.God and religion are beyond the boundaries of logic.you mentioned the part about holy books being written centuries ago,they were'nt exactly written by man,or where they?they were sent down by God.

Science cannot explain God,and neither can it prove that God exists.Its something spiritual,something that is beyond logic.When you try to go into religion on the basis of logic,then you will end up believing that God does'nt exist,because logic cannot explain the supernatural.Look at it this way :

-you have a computer,that can do everything possible.
-the computer could be all powerful,but it is run by man.
-if man run such a powerful thing,does that make man the all powerful?
-man dies,he cannnot prevent death.if he was all powerful,wouldnt he be able stop people from dying?
-man cannot control death.someone controls man.man learned the whole basis of living from somewhere.he was created by SOMEONE,adam and eve came into existence through somene,that someone is GOD.

its a crappy attemt at reasoning,but anyway :

logic and science cannot define the supernatural,and God is supernatural.its something spiritual,you cannot explain it through logic.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

First of all science explains a lot of stuff in religion.

Second, religion is logical, if you don't think about it, you are Adolf Hitler.

Third, men do stop people from dying, when 100 years ago people would die from cancer, we now have chemotherapy.

Last, did you compare God to a computer.

 

[Zé Tahir]

I disagree Axl. Religion and God go hand in hand, imo. Especially in Islam, where lots of scientific 'signs' are revealed in the Qu'ran to prove the existence of God. But yes, you cannot by means of science say, "look, there's God, because..." Burke, if you're really interested, and this is not a one time "it just struck me" thing, than hollar, I got some readin for ya.

 

[swag]

Nice clarity, Burke.

As an aside, you know the Scientologists think we're all descendents of space aliens, but it's questionable whether I'd call that a religion or not. One thing is for sure according to science: as Moby says, we're all made of stars.

I guess I don't get hung up on there being a singular religion of absolute truth. To try to simplify where I am, I see that almost all religions are like colored glasses through which the people of different cultures and times perceive a shared sense of existence and their relationship with things greater than themselves. It's almost as if they are all different parables that tell common stories in their own way. To me, it also has a large element of the Hindu fable of the blind men and the elephant as well.

Oh, I still have my doubts about whether some eternal creator exists per se -- as if the concept of what a "creator" really means is something that's not just a construct for our feeble brains. But what I find intriguing is the concept of all these cultures from different lands and times, often not even meeting each other in the past at all before these concepts were brought out, and yet they have innately come out with identical questions about life and existence ... and with very similar if not identical stories and explanations for it.

That, to me, is in itself almost a miracle of truth. As if every human throughout history was born with some kind of common signature in how humans think and feel about themselves in the world, and how they have a need for explanations, and how come to explain it. Philsophers like Martin Heidegger and some modernist contemporaries like Vaclav Havel and comparative religion types like Joseph Campbell have also referred to a sort of common "antenna" that's innate to all humans and broadcasts these common signals.

Again, probably too much to get into here. I've gone on in other threads, for example, how the main stories of Christianity are largely knockoffs of what you can find in the ancient religions of Sumeria some 4,000 years before Christ.

 

[HelterSkelter]

First of all science explains a lot of stuff in religion.

Second, religion is logical, if you don't think about it, you are Adolf Hitler.

Third, men do stop people from dying, when 100 years ago people would die from cancer, we now have chemotherapy.

Last, did you compare God to a computer.

science doesnt explain God's existence.does it?
and im talking about preventing death.what you're talking about merely postpones death,it doesnt make people 'not die'.
and no i wasnt comparing God to a computer.i was merely trying to give an example and like i said,'its a crappy attempt at reasoning'.
personally,i dont find religion or God explainable by logic.but then again,to every man his own i suppose.

 

[Zlatan]

First thing I thought when I read that is... there's no way Burke wrote that

 

[Tom]

Second, religion is logical, if you don't think about it, you are Adolf Hitler.

come again?

 

[Menace]

I don't think about religion now, when I'm old maybe, My mind isn't for rent now

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

science doesnt explain God's existence.does it?
and im talking about preventing death.what you're talking about merely postpones death,it doesnt make people 'not die'.
and no i wasnt comparing God to a computer.i was merely trying to give an example and like i said,'its a crappy attempt at reasoning'.
personally,i dont find religion or God explainable by logic.but then again,to every man his own i suppose.

No, it explains God's NON-existence.

No, it does make people not die. When you have cancer, you die, when you dont have it anymore, however short a time, you still live.

Yea, I agree.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

come again?

He said that religion cannot be explained by logic, you can't think about it. I am saying that if you just go along with whatever you hear and dont think, you become like Adolf and just are a soldier of whatever the mind perceives. A sort of religious fanatic.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

First thing I thought when I read that is... there's no way Burke wrote that

Well, you better put your believing hat on there glasses-magee.

 

[Slagathor]

First thing I thought when I read that is... there's no way Burke wrote that

Oh thank god; halfway down this page, I was thinking "Am I the only one who didn't buy this?"

 

[Cronios]

God created man in a way that he will never fully understand the universe in a life time,
science is evolving from day one of humanity and it will evolve, as long as there are humans,
Science can go hand to hand with religion,
we might come one step closer to understand how God created the world, when and where
but we will never be able to understand it completely,
we are really really far from there even today,
the more we dont know,the more we speculate to fill up the holes of the current scientific level,
in the past scientists filled those holes with partialy wrong interpretated religion beliefs,
when new improoved scientific beliefs came prooved wrong the older ones and together with it the religion theory used to gather those holes.
Remember that science prooved many times wrong herself and reconsidered the cosmogenic theories from the beginnig many times so far,
it will happen again...
But now science has a great level of detail,
enough to please the majority of the populance belief needs and this make us overconfindent and keen to renounce every previus authority.
People who were part of a religion ONLY because they were scared to face the world(lack of knowledge create fears) and were hoping a superior force will help them, dont need religion anymore...
Dogma has nothing to do with them, it is something beyond human conception,we cannot turn down dogma because some humans wich tried to understand it, failed to do it perfectly and some others tried to use it for their theories.
Church in its physical form isnt the same with Dogma,
its just some humans try, to understand the truth and guide people to it.

God created this world and created some rules to run it,he is not obligated to brake them all the time for mans favour,
if u fall from a cliff, God sould interefere with the gravity and save u?
if a man wants to kill u,God sould interefere with his free will and save u?
NO this is the way He built this world and this world is cruell and unfair
but it works perfectly,so perfectly that science will be ever able to calculate.
this is not paradise,its supposed to be a test,
our short lives are a test, we will rewarded in the after life,
we will never reach a solid proof because we will loose our free will...
but we will always know what good and bad is,unlike the animals.