Moment of Clarity (4 Viewers)

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Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#21
Burke, you are freaking me out. I vowed to find a bridge to jump from the minute Burke started thinking like me and now you've shamed me into it.

And "clarity"? How much do we get for tracing that word back to Andy? Oh this isn't the vbookie forum?

In an effort to make this post less worthless, I hope you do give up smoking. It's good for you and it will make life for the people around you better.

swag said:
Oh, I still have my doubts about whether some eternal creator exists per se -- as if the concept of what a "creator" really means is something that's not just a construct for our feeble brains. But what I find intriguing is the concept of all these cultures from different lands and times, often not even meeting each other in the past at all before these concepts were brought out, and yet they have innately come out with identical questions about life and existence ... and with very similar if not identical stories and explanations for it.
I don't find that very strange at all. I think it comes from our facility to reason which simply does not allow us to get any closer to the truth on those issues, and hence human thinkers will eventually hit that barrier, which has happened in just about every civilization throughout time. And the closer we come to understand the universe, we are no closer to understanding where it came from in the first place, or the concept of time for that matter. So despite what Burke said about the Bible failing to mention any astronomy, it may or not be relevant to the question at hand, but it doesn't answer any of those issues.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Aug 1, 2003
17,696
#22
As a Muslim, I do believe Science and religion can go hand in hand, simply because God encourages Muslims to think about His creation and puts great importance in education.

Here is the general outline of sciences mentioned in the Quran:

1. astronomy in the quran which covers:
- general reflections concerning the sky
- nature of heavenly bodies (the sun, moon, stars and lowest heaven (planets))
- celestial organisation (mainly deals with solar system - orbits, movements)
- evolution of the heavens (the expansion of universe)
- the conquest of space

2. the earth
- verses containing general statements
- the water cycle and the seas
- the earth's relief
- the earth's atmosphere (electricity in the atmosphere, shadows)

3. the animal and vegetable kingdoms
- the origins of life
- the vegetable kingdom (balance and reproduction)
- the animal kingdom (reproduction, references to the existence of animal communities, statements concerning bees, spiders and birds)

4. Human reproduction
- fertilization is performed by only a very small volume of liquid
- the constituents of the fertilizing liquid
- the implantation of the egg in the female genital organs
- evolution of the embryo inside the uterus
 

Hambon

Lion of the Desert
Apr 22, 2005
8,073
#23
sallyinzaghi said:
As a Muslim, I do believe Science and religion can go hand in hand, simply because God encourages Muslims to think about His creation and puts great importance in education.

Here is the general outline of sciences mentioned in the Quran:

1. astronomy in the quran which covers:
- general reflections concerning the sky
- nature of heavenly bodies (the sun, moon, stars and lowest heaven (planets))
- celestial organisation (mainly deals with solar system - orbits, movements)
- evolution of the heavens (the expansion of universe)
- the conquest of space

2. the earth
- verses containing general statements
- the water cycle and the seas
- the earth's relief
- the earth's atmosphere (electricity in the atmosphere, shadows)

3. the animal and vegetable kingdoms
- the origins of life
- the vegetable kingdom (balance and reproduction)
- the animal kingdom (reproduction, references to the existence of animal communities, statements concerning bees, spiders and birds)

4. Human reproduction
- fertilization is performed by only a very small volume of liquid
- the constituents of the fertilizing liquid
- the implantation of the egg in the female genital organs
- evolution of the embryo inside the uterus
Very nice sallyinzaghi...coming from a Muslim as well :agree:
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#25
I always though of religion as an alternative to science really. If religious texts comtain so many references to science then why bother with them? Just read an A level science textbook and you'll get it all in much more detail. I find it hard to figure out how religion and science can ever operate in tandem when the core concept of all abr one of the world's major religions is of a god or gods existing - which is scientifically improbabe to put it politely.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#26
Tom said:
which is scientifically improbabe to put it politely.
Unless you believe that religion shall we say superseeds science. That everything found in science can be explained by religion. That's not very clearly put, but it's the gist of it.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#28
Desmond said:
I'll believe it when I see it.
You're missing the point. If you could see it, it wouldn't be religion. Religion isn't meant to explain trivial things, it's meant to explain the unexplainable.
 
Aug 1, 2003
17,696
#31
Religion just doesnt cover science but spiritual well being as well (something that science doesnt do); why cant science go hand in hand with religion? (I am only speaking as a Muslim here, I do not know about any other religions and how they view it) for example in Islam its easy: studying the earth and all the things that happen around us (which is science) is encouraged . The only difference is that we Muslims believe it is God who created these things and control it. Science studies are encouraged in Islam because it will open and remind us of God's greatness (the proof being His creations) you still have great Muslim scientists in the form of Ibn Sina (Avicenna), Al Khawarizmi, Geber...
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#32
Martin said:
You're missing the point. If you could see it, it wouldn't be religion. Religion isn't meant to explain trivial things, it's meant to explain the unexplainable.
Exactly. Religion attempts to prove the things that science can't (or at least has not yet been able to), and it is not able to prove things that science has (or at least to a far less comprehensively). Using Tom's example, the existence of a God is improbable, from a scientific point of view; how can religion then prove, or disprove, if you will, the improbability of the existence of a god? A god's existence is not something we can 'see', is it?

Hence me saying that I'd only believe that religion can prove everything science has after seeing it.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#33
Martin said:
Unless you believe that religion shall we say superseeds science. That everything found in science can be explained by religion. That's not very clearly put, but it's the gist of it.
I know what you're getting at Martin but I don't think anyone can say that religion supercedes science. In the beginning there was religion and gradually over time, science and research have disproved more and more of it at least in my eyes.

Religion can only try to persuade people, it can never hope to prove anything. The there's the point that with so many conflicting religions most of them are guaranteed to be cock and bull anyway.. I'll stick to science thankyou :D
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#36
Tom said:
I know what you're getting at Martin but I don't think anyone can say that religion supercedes science. In the beginning there was religion and gradually over time, science and research have disproved more and more of it at least in my eyes.

Religion can only try to persuade people, it can never hope to prove anything. The there's the point that with so many conflicting religions most of them are guaranteed to be cock and bull anyway.. I'll stick to science thankyou :D
Gradually science replaced religion? So how did the Bible help us calculate the trajectory of an object fired from a catapult then? You could read the Bible very literally and say that Eve didn't come from Adam's rib, humans evolved from apes. But that's one line, it doesn't disprove the whole book. If you see a spelling error in the dictionary, that doesn't mean every definition is wrong.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,203
#37
ßömßärdiër said:
I start this thread not out of thought to provoke a much heated religious debate, but one rather to rather provoke a thought of things outside of our world.

I went outside just now to have the, hopefully, last cigarette of my life, and also this helps because I don't have any more in my house, am too lazy to buy more, and am so poor that I don't have the 3.75 to buy more Camels. With this said, he I go.

I was just standing outside and looking at the full moon, here in Martinsburg there is a fresh layer of snow covering the ground, and the night is fully clear. I live outside of the city, so I have no lights near my home, I can see the stars and what not in absolute brilliance and without any remote visual nuisance. I sat there for a couple of minutes and took this for granted, as we all do. I then realized, how can one really believe in a "God?" How does one "make" a planet?

I understand that the theory I have heard most states that a great "being" created them from nothing basically, then rested, not unlike many of us would after meticulously making something so marvelous, like a paper airplane.

But I soon realised in what alcoholics, not unlike myself, call a "moment of clarity." A moment when some great thing suddenly makes a minute bit of sense. So I ask you, how can a book or something made 2000 years ago even attempt to present a semi-rational bit of evidence that states where this planet comes from? How does one do it, how did they do it?

I was earlier watching the History Channel and the program was on the exploration of space. I started thinking, if one star in our galaxy, our sun has planets, and one of these planets can support life, then what about the other billions of stars in our solar system?

If one out of a billion galaxys has a star like ours, and one out of a billion of those has planetary systems, and one out of a billion of those systems has a planet that can support life, and one out of a billion of those has life, there are literally billions upon billions of plaets out there that are +/- just like ours.

Then I thought about it from a religious point of view. Where in the Bible or Qu'an does it talk about space and the millions of galaxys some spirit created in addition to ours? Then I thought, ohh wait, it doesn't. So I propose to you this, what if there is no "God?" What if instead of it creating us, we created this being, to explain to ourselves how to accept things? If you think about it, many ancient cultures talked about the stars as things from great battles and that the stars are where their spirits end up, like Orion from mythology or Gemini, and we dismiss these as idiotic practices from cultures past.

So what if all of the religion in this world is wrong? What if everything in the Bible is incorrect, not about Jesus being a prophet, but about creation and et cetera.

What if we created a "God" to explain our world because to us, to all of us, what is more scary than the thought that we are absolutely alone in this world? What if this is it? No Heaven, no Hell, none of that, just you die and that is it. Because this is what I have come to think, that this is all it is, this is life, this is what we do, and at the end of our life we lie in a hole in the ground and BOOM, nothing.

Sounds like some pretty crazy shit to me. Also think about this, the Catholic church hundreds of years ago was a lot more strict than it is now, it has let its rules lax and has aged with time. But in recent times the Church has seen many members of its following pass on and dwindle. Many people might look at this and say that it is because the world has become more devilish and hateful, all kinds of BS like that.

BUT, the fact is that people are waking up, they are looking out there and seeing that all of that nonsense from ages past has come unravelled, now there is a lot of scientific fact that shows how the planets were formed from the explosion of another star, from other celestial bodies.

So, just think about it.

(I used the Catholic Church as an example because most of my religious knowledge comes from Catholic teachings and Catholic school, I would have used maybe Islam if I had a greater grasp of its teachings.)
We definitely created God, Jahwe and Allah. NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT! Did you hear me guys? Everyone can start me bashing me after the next sentence, so please wait while I elaborate:

What are the chances of the Bible, the Qu'ran or the Thora being completely or even partially right? No more than one in a billion. Why? Because all three of them were written down by human beings. Well, not exactly, human beings who said they themselves were "inspirated" by a superior being. Of course it's impossible to prove this and the only argument they have is their own word.

Add to that their probable shabby mental state. Why I call them crazy? Let's see, how would you define a guy that strolls around telling people he's the son of God? That's right, you would call him a lunatic. So not only is the only "evidence" we have of their writings being correct their own word, it's also the word of a lunatic.

Furthermore they started from scratch. It seems improbable they were inspired by a superior being, as I proved above, so we can accept that. Thus these three religions are based on human invention.

Now may I ask you what's the likeliness of a human invention about a superior being being completely right? Yep, no more than one in a billion billion.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,203
#38
Oh and for the record, anyone who still fully believes in God has arrived at the point where the Greek were 3000 years ago. Bravo!

You see, they used myths to explain the world and to explain social differences. The fact that this was the world and these were the social differences "proved the myth". e.g.: "I am bigger than you, thus the myth of me being bigger than you because one of my ancestors killed one of your ancestors must be true.". Any rational person would respond with: "HUH?" But that's not what religious people do.
 

HelterSkelter

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2005
19,101
#39
well,i can assure you seven,the Qu'raan wasnt written down by a human.it was a divine revelation on the Prophet Mohammad(PBUH).and being a muslim,my religion states that Jesus never claimed being the son of God,he was sent down as a messenger to bring people on the right path,the whole bit about him being the 'son of god' was made up by his most devout followers at that time.im saying all this from a muslim's point of view,so obviously, a christian's point of view would be different.
not that im bashing you,but i dont agree with you one bit.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,203
#40
Desmond said:
Exactly. Religion attempts to prove the things that science can't (or at least has not yet been able to), and it is not able to prove things that science has (or at least to a far less comprehensively). Using Tom's example, the existence of a God is improbable, from a scientific point of view; how can religion then prove, or disprove, if you will, the improbability of the existence of a god? A god's existence is not something we can 'see', is it?

Hence me saying that I'd only believe that religion can prove everything science has after seeing it.
Not really true. Religion consists of myths. A Roman myth tells us African people are black, because the son of Helios once took his car and had a joyride. Science did disprove that, don't you think?
 
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