Moggi: I Wanted To Kill Myself (20 Viewers)

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denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#41
Moggi is not a saint, but Juventus came out perfectly clean from the doping scandal (by one of the most.. strict italian courts) and was judged guilty by courts created by Guido Rossi, without any proof or illicit behavior.

Anyway, the trials are still in progress and this time the courts judging will be "real" ones.




@denco: why Juve didn't fight? Because they had interest in not doing so and because this was the perfect solution to get rid of a manager (Giraudo, because the real target of the calciopoli affair was him) that was gaining too much power.
You are not serious are you? Giraudo is now the scapegoat, the same way, our doctor was made the scapegoat during our doping trial. What trials are you talking about that are ongoing?
Nobody pleads guilty or accepts an unfair decision without fighting just to piss off someone else, its just stupid. Giruado left before the trials started so I am not sure what you mean by he was becoming too powerful and had to be got rid of.
Anyways this is all in the past and Moggi is probbaly bracing himself for a comeback into football which should never be permitted, well not in the next 5 years at least
 

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Badass J Elkann

It's time to go!!
Feb 12, 2006
68,897
#42
Again and again, this is also your assumption, do you have a proof of Rossi´s setup?

And don´t get me wrong, I´d love to see a fair trial this time, but denying Moggi´s wrongdoings is just lame.
hellooooooo! u seen serie A recently, has it improved since moggi's influence is no longer there? no!
theres still allegations of favouritism towards inter, and new corruption stories comming out of milan and inter recently, so what is moggi guilty of if nothing has actually improved?

We are talking about a human being, here.
And we are talking about life.
And a human life is something that goes beyond the football faith.

So, take your tasteless irony elsewhere.
u see the kind of sh*t i have to put up with, i mourned for fachetti because he was an honourable man, but guido rossi? i will show no remorse and infact have my first pint of beer in celebration
 

C4ISR

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2005
2,362
#43
Moggi was the victim of a far from impartial sportive justice. The victim of having Interista in the 2 main areas of the scandal; TIM and FIGC. To downplay the importance of such Interista marrigages is utterly foolish. If it were painted in black and white, there would be a public outrage. The hypocrisy of calcio and its fans.

Furthermore, the fact the official records clearly show that the "match fixing", "bribing", labels are just fantasy's which exist in the sensationalist media. Fantasy's which some of u, of all ppl Juventino, have adopted, when the facts clearly state otherwise.

Also, no1 is claiming Moggi is sparkling clean, but rather Rossi went overboard on him, all the while taking away his legal right to an effecient defense.

The real scandal weren't the bullshit charges, but the witch hunt that followed.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
#44
Ladies & Gentleman, may I introduce to you the typical Sheridan Bird??

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Is Signor Dodgy On His Way Back?


One man - a shadowy, sinister figure - dominated football in Italy this weekend. A familiar face, one that perhaps we all wished would never fill our TV screens or newspapers again. He barged Ronaldo of the front pages (barging that man ain't easy) and even rendered Inter's 14th consecutive win a virtual afterthought. Which terrifying spectre of wrongdoings past is everyone talking about? None other than Signor Dodgy: Luciano Moggi.

It appears that eight or so months after the full impact of the mother of all sports scandals, and the fall-out from the genuinely shocking revelations of his ridiculously complex and far-reaching reign of terror, Moggi is making his media comeback, presenting himself as a 'man of principles' (his words) and a tormented soul, battered and bruised from all the abuse and hatred he has suffered.

For those who don't know the details or have chosen to delete them from their brains, a very quick recap: With his army of contacts within the Italian FA, Referees Association, media and football agents' community, the ex-Juventus Director General was able to do just about whatever he pleased. Whether that be choosing refs for matches, getting players booked so they would miss games against his team the following week, selecting international referees with UEFA for Juve's Champions League ties, controlling all transfers in Italy and even having a hand in the editing of highlights of Juve games on TV (thus giving controversial moments a special pro-Juve spin).

Back in the summer of last year a new outrage came out every day - Moggi did this, Moggi did that, Moggi locked a ref in his dressing room, Moggi stole the toys from the orphanage, Moggi punched a new-born kitten in the mouth :rofl:etc. It threatened to overshadow the World Cup, that is, until the Azzurri actually won it.

The disgraced director was given a five-year ban from football after the 'calciopoli' trials and scurried away out of the limelight. But this week a program will be screened on Mediaset which includes a brief chat with Moggi in which he puts on his best 'poor me' face, and claims, "I thought about killing myself."

The TV show is 'Il Bivio', which every week takes a sentimental look at turning points in people's lives, focusing on moments when they have shown great courage in the face of difficulty or tragedy. The subject of this week's edition is not actually Moggi, but a Paraguayan footballer called Julio Gonzalez who lost an arm in a road accident. Gonzalez is now trying to make a comeback in football, and hopes to play again. The episode is all about his decision to fight his new disability and pays tribute to his immense bravery.

Moggi pops up to talk about Gonzalez and heap praise on his pluckiness and positive outlook. But this being Moggi, a master communicator and of course expert manipulator, he managed to get in his own agenda. So far the only extract of the program (which airs tonight) to be shown has been one of Moggi, with moistened, distant eyes, claiming that he thought about suicide after the scandal. Poor soul.

If you aren't familiar with Moggi, just imagine a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle disguised as an old man with slitty little eyes, expensive glasses and a very thin band of wispy hair dyed a sickly treacle colour around the back of his head stretching from ear to ear.:lol2: Then envisage him throwing himself headfirst into self-pity in front of a studio audience, stuttering to declare that he thought about ending it all.

This confession has split Italy into two camps. Some have shown sympathy for the crooked sod, including (worryingly) a lot of powerful people in the press. Mediaset's TV football guru Sandro Piccinini even claimed that if Moggi had really felt that low at the time, the press would have to shoulder some of the blame as they were the first to vilify him with their sensationalist reporting of the mess.

Others are disgusted by this hypocritical playing of the victim card by the man who ruined calcio for millions of fans. His whole 'I nearly topped myself' charade on TV was reminiscent of the cringingly acted inner turmoil Arthur Fowler suffered after stealing the Walford Christmas Club money on EastEnders all those years ago.

It is a highly debatable argument whether anyone should feel sorry for this man, a sly bugger who turned one of the world's top leagues into his own private plaything (growing very rich in the process), and it is decidedly concerning that he is being portrayed in such a compassionate light by certain areas of the media. Are they trying to brush history under the carpet already? Is the way being paved for some kind of reprieve and early return to football for the man who has done more to damage it than any hooligan or rogue player ever could? Stranger things have happened. We have been warned.
 

isha00

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2003
5,114
#45
Again and again, this is also your assumption, do you have a proof of Rossi´s setup?

And don´t get me wrong, I´d love to see a fair trial this time, but denying Moggi´s wrongdoings is just lame.
Rossi has a major in law (Pavia and Harvard) and was already politician (1987-1992) in the Italian communist party, on what is now *Prodi's* side, he has been in the Telecom board for many years and in the Inter one for 4. In fact he's a die hard Inter fan, something that brought him to state that "Noi dell'inter siamo puliti" (We, the interisti, are clean) and that made him see hundreds of Inter's matches next to Moratti.
Once he became FIGC commissar, he got rid of the most important judges of the sportive courts, substituting them with ones he chose, and he eliminated one degree of the sportive judice.
When Juve was safely in B, he became Telecom's new president and some of the people who worked for him this summer, followed him in Telecom.

As Telecom's president he has been almost thretaning newspapers not to write about the interecettopoli scandal (the one of the phone taps and other kinds of illegal investigations on the private life of citizens).
As many of you may know, Telecom had hackers and phone tappers who worked to gain information on people they felt as unconvenient. This info was used to threaten these people in various ways.

Here are two *very* interesting articles on the matter, printed on today's Libero (probably the only newspaper that is never afraid to write things as they are) wirtten by the two journalists of theirs who have been stalked, who have had their phones tapped and their computers hacked by telecom. I can't translate them, but those who talk Italian around here will surely be.. impressed.


I tigrotti spioni


Si fa l’abitudine a tutto, poi la cosa è ridicola e drammatica al tempo stesso, non m’impressiona più di tanto, quindi, la riconferma dell’essere stato spiato da quelli che per questo erano più che lautamente pagati da Telecom Italia. Ma ci sono tre novità, rilevantissime e pericolose, che segnalo ai lettori, ma anche a Telecom Italia.

Già, perché fin qui c’è arrivato addosso di tutto, ma mai una risposta, mai un chiarimento, che sarebbe dovuto a noi che abbiamo pubblicato verità non smentibili, al mercato ed alle autorità di controllo.

La prima “novità”, si fa per dire, è la seguente: nell’ottobre scorso il presidente di Telecom Italia, Guido Rossi, ha inviato una diffida a tutti i giornali italiani, chiedendo, in modo perentorio, che il nome della società da lui presieduta non fosse associato ad attività illecite d’intercettazione, che non ci sarebbero mai state. Avvocato Rossi, io sono stato intercettato. Con me hanno intercettato Fausto Carioti, che da giornalista seguiva alcune faccende di Telecom Italia. Risulterebbe che nella cassaforte di Andrea Pompili, coordinatore, sempre in Telecom, del Tiger Team (ma le pare normale?), si siano trovati 4 cd contenenti non solo la mia posta elettronica, ma le videate dello schermo del mio computer. Quelle sono intercettazioni, intromissioni nelle mie comunicazioni elettroniche, che viaggiano sui cavi telefonici. Avvocato, non credo lei possa far finta di niente. Non foss’altro perché ci ha diffidati dallo scrivere quel che ho appena scritto. Mi muoverò seguendo le vie legali, conto d’incontrarla nel medesimo cammino e nella stessa direzione.

La seconda “novità”, sempre a quanto leggo in giro, è che sì ci sono stati attacchi informatici al Corriere della Sera, ma almeno quelli non sono andati a buon (nel senso di cattivo) fine, e Massimo Mucchetti ha potuto continuare a fare il suo ottimo lavoro, cosa che contiamo continui a fare, ma quella, a ben vedere, era una specie di faida in famiglia e, sebbene il diritto neghi la possibilità d’intercettarsi anche fra coniugi gelosi e ridotti ad origliatori, se ne comprendono le dinamiche alla luce dello scontro su quale dei proprietari potesse avere maggiore influenza sul giornale. Al contrario, altri sono stati presi di mira sol perché facevano del giornalismo, senza preventiva genuflessione a chi ha la pretesa di sentirsi potente e che o direttamente possiede i giornali o su di essi esercita un’imponente influenza con i soldi della pubblicità. E’ una cosa molto grave, che riguarda direttamente i pilastri della libertà e della democrazia. Per questo mi pare assordante il silenzio della corporazione giornalistica, così pronta a mostrarsi severa quando si sente coperta dagli interessi superiori, ma così silente quando sotto attacco finiscono quelli che gli interessi superiori li sfidano. Devo essermi distratto, ma confesso che il comunicato vibrante di sdegno per il fatto che dei colleghi finiscono spiati ed intercettati a causa dei loro articoli, m’è proprio sfuggito.

La terza novità la trovo in un pezzo dell’ottimamente informato Luigi Ferrarella, sul Corriere della Sera di sabato scorso. Il giornalista riferisce le parole di Fabio Ghioni, collega di Giuliano Tavaroli e fra i creatori del … non so come definirlo, diciamo centro di ricerche Telecom, rivolte ai magistrati che indagano: “Personalmente mi sono adoperato, su richiesta di Raffaele Savarese di Telecom Italia in Brasile, perché creassi uno storage accessibile solo a determinati utenti sul quale memorizzare documenti che i componenti indipendenti del cda di Brasil Telecom mettono a disposizione di Telecom Italia”. Cosa sia uno storage non lo so di preciso, ma questa roba assomiglia ad un reato. Intanto perché non c’erano consiglieri indipendenti in quel consiglio d’amministrazione, ma rappresentanti di fondi pensione al centro di trame molto discusse, poi perché non è detto per quale ragione, e con quale rispetto della legge, dei membri del cda dovessero passare notizie, evidentemente segrete, ad uno degli azionisti. E’ leggendo quelle parole che ho capito cosa cercavano gli spioni di Telecom facendo i guardoni delle mie cose: volevano sapere se avevo elementi per rivelare una cosa simile.

Nel mio libro, che uscì nel 2004, raccontavo fatti gravissimi, montagne di quattrini che sparivano, intrecci fra Telecom Italia, Parmalat e Cirio, ed erano tutti fatti documentati, che nessuno si è permesso di smentire. In quel libro sono anche descritti i miei rapporti con ciascuno dei protagonisti, anche con Dantas e la sua Opportunity, quindi le insinuazioni sull’essere stato al servizio di questo o di quello le rimando alla fonte analfabeta. Ma Telecom Italia non ha mai risposto, non ha mai replicato, non ha mai spiegato. In campo c’erano gli spioni, interessati a sapere se avevo elementi per raccontare quel che loro stavano facendo, in Brasile ed altrove. Li avessi avuti stiano certi che li avrei pubblicati, ma ero troppo isolato e troppo debole per potere espormi al rischio di scrivere una sola parola non dimostrabile. Adesso, dunque, noi sappiamo che quel che si legge in Razza Corsara è tutto vero, è che c’è di più e di peggio.

Credo sia da escludere che tutta questa faccenda spionistica sia stata montata per servire gli interessi dei tigrotti, mentre le conseguenze saranno comunque assai rilevanti, dato che il tutto sarà utilizzato per ridisegnare la mappa del potere finanziario in Italia. E non è detto ci sia da festeggiare.

29 gennaio 2007

fonte:http://www.davidegiacalone.it/index.php/economia/i_tigrotti_spioni



Schedato e pedinato
Ora sanno tutto di me

http://aconservativemind.blogspot.com/
Gli spioni di Telecom: no, non l'ho presa bene - di Fausto Carioti

Di tutte le sensazioni che può provare un individuo, poche sono più fastidiose dello scoprire che qualcuno molto grosso e molto potente usa i soldi che gli versi ogni bimestre nella bolletta telefonica, con l’aggiunta di qualche milione di euro, per frugare tra i tuoi documenti e nella tua corrispondenza, allo scopo di impedirti di fare il tuo lavoro e trovare materiale utile per ricattarti. Il sottoscritto il dubbio lo aveva da tempo, e quando è saltato fuori che gli sgherri di Telecom Italia avevano allestito una struttura degna della Spectre per monitorare la vita e le attività di Davide Giacalone, il dubbio era diventato quasi certezza. La conferma definitiva che ha tolto quel «quasi» è arrivata domenica mattina, leggendo l’articolo del bravo Luigi Ferrarella sul Corriere della Sera. Dall’ottobre 2003 al marzo 2004, come risulta da una relazione della polizia postale, il computer di chi scrive è stato frugato con attenzione, giorno per giorno, dagli hacker al soldo di Telecom. I quali hanno copiato sui loro hard disk tutta la posta elettronica che entrava e usciva dalla mia casella personale, esplorato il contenuto dei miei documenti e memorizzato alcune schermate del mio monitor.

Provo a spiegarmi meglio. Durante quei sei mesi, i signori in questione sono entrati in possesso di ogni dettaglio della mia vita professionale e personale. Sapevano a quali articoli stessi lavorando e cosa scrivevo, con chi mi scambiavo le mail, quali erano i movimenti del mio conto in banca e quale fosse la password per accedervi via Web. Erano al corrente degli acquisti fatti con la mia carta di credito (l’estratto conto mi arriva via mail, come a milioni di italiani). Per arrivare a occuparsi del sottoscritto, devono avere probabilmente seguito i miei spostamenti, sicuramente intercettato le mie telefonate (cosa per loro mille volte più semplice del rovistare nel mio computer). Avessi acquistato su Internet un completo in pelle genere sadomaso, modello Pulp Fiction, lo avrebbero saputo, avrebbero preso l’appunto e aggiunto così un dettaglio interessante al dossier intestato al sottoscritto, per far vedere a chi pagava il loro lavoro che certi incarichi li prendono sul serio. Avessi acquistato on line farmaci dagli Stati Uniti, come fanno molti italiani, se ne sarebbero accorti, e forse avrebbero chiesto a qualche medico una diagnosi su misura per il sottoscritto, tanto per capire se soffrissi o meno di una malattia grave. Avessi avuto un’amante, lo avrebbero saputo, e magari avrebbero trovato il modo di farmi sapere che loro sapevano: fai il bravo, smettila di mettere il naso in faccende che non ti riguardano, e resta tutto tra di noi. Se l’amante fosse stato un uomo, meglio ancora. Può far sorridere, ma è proprio immondizia del genere quella cui erano interessati i solerti spioni pagati con i soldi delle nostre telefonate.

Perché tanto interesse negli affari privati del sottoscritto? Semplicemente perché mi era venuta voglia di vedere chiaro in quel gran casino che Telecom Italia aveva sollevato in Sud America. Il fondo d’investimento Opportunity, socio di maggioranza di Brasil Telecom, sosteneva che il prezzo (800 milioni di dollari) pagato nel luglio del 2000 dalla società per l’acquisizione della Crt, Companhia Riograndense Telecomunicacoes, era stato spinto all’insù, per ragioni tutte da chiarire, da Telecom Italia, all’epoca sotto la gestione di Roberto Colaninno, che di Brasil Telecom era il socio di minoranza. La merchant bank Interamericana, che nell’operazione aveva svolto il ruolo di advisor per conto di Brasil Telecom, in un documento aveva definito una «grande montatura» l’intera trattativa sul prezzo dell’operazione, indicando il giusto valore della Crt, che era stata ceduta dagli spagnoli di Telefónica, in una cifra che «difficilmente avrebbe superato i 450 milioni di dollari».

Come chiunque può intuire, è molto strano che un azionista insista perché una società nella quale ha investito i suoi soldi paghi 350 milioni più del dovuto. Una mossa simile si sarebbe potuta spiegare solo con la volontà di dar vita a un giro di soldi dai contorni poco chiari. Per un giornalista, quindi, cercare di capire cosa stesse succedendo, e scoprire se le accuse di Opportunity fossero fondate, era di fatto un obbligo.

Seguivo la vicenda da qualche anno, e proprio verso la metà del settembre 2003 sembrava si dovesse essere a un punto di svolta. Brasil Telecom, sotto la spinta del suo socio di maggioranza, denunciava apertamente l’operato degli italiani. I parlamentari della coalizione guidata dal presidente Luiz Inacio Lula chiedevano in aula l’apertura di inchieste per mettere sotto la lente gli acquisti fatti negli anni precedenti da Telecom Italia e portare a galla «responsabilità di persone, imprenditori e autorità di governo, così come dei gruppi industriali coinvolti, degli altri enti e degli organismi pubblici». Non bastasse tutto questo, Brasil Telecom e Telecom Italia erano entrate in conflitto anche per la concessione delle licenze di telefonia mobile. Curiosamente (si fa per dire), gli unici in Italia ad essere al corrente di tutto ciò erano i lettori di Libero.

Agli inizi di ottobre, un incontro riservato con Luis Octavio da Motta Veiga, presidente del consiglio d’amministrazione di Brasil Telecom ed ex numero uno della Consob brasiliana, mi confermava la difficilissima situazione che Telecom Italia stava incontrando in Brasile. Fu proprio durante quella riunione in un albergo romano, alla quale partecipò anche Giacalone, che la sensazione di essere spiato diventò fortissima.

Guarda caso, proprio in quei giorni, secondo quando scoperto dagli uomini della polizia postale, entrano in azione gli hacker del Tiger Team. Anche se il nome è da supereroi giapponesi sfigati, si tratta di gente di primissimo livello. I magistrati milanesi che indagano sulla vicenda scrivono che della squadra fanno parte «persone con profili professionali elevatissimi», sebbene - particolare che certo non tranquillizza - in qualche caso «gravate da qualche denuncia o precedente penale». Rocco Lucia, il leader della squadra dei ficcanaso, «doveva rispondere del proprio operato ad Andrea Pompili», coordinatore del team. «Questi dipendeva da Fabio Ghioni», capo della Information Security di Telecom, «il quale a sua volta aveva come referente Giuliano Tavaroli», capo della sicurezza. Gente della Telecom, che lavorava in una sede romana di Telecom usando il meglio della tecnologia Telecom. Ghioni e Lucia sono stati arrestati il 18 gennaio per l’intrusione del 4 novembre 2004 nei computer del Corriere della sera, mentre a Tavaroli è stata notificata in carcere l’ennesima ordinanza di arresto. Aprendo la cassaforte dell’ufficio di Pompili, sono saltati fuori quattro cd-rom, uno dei quali contenente le mail, i documenti e le schermate copiate illegalmente dal computer del sottoscritto.

Per dirla con un vecchio slogan: niente resterà impunito. Pagherete caro, pagherete tutto. L’appuntamento, con gli spioni informatici e i loro mandanti, è in tribunale.

Btw, you talk about wrongdoings in general, do you actually know exactly what we were judged guilty of?



You are not serious are you? Giraudo is now the scapegoat, the same way, our doctor was made the scapegoat during our doping trial. What trials are you talking about that are ongoing?
Nobody pleads guilty or accepts an unfair decision without fighting just to piss off someone else, its just stupid. Giruado left before the trials started so I am not sure what you mean by he was becoming too powerful and had to be got rid of.
Anyways this is all in the past and Moggi is probbaly bracing himself for a comeback into football which should never be permitted, well not in the next 5 years at least
You really think I'm joking? That I'm making this all up?

You are right, no one does it to piss someone else off. But no one looses hundreds of millions euro, without fighting what has been called by many prestigious lawyers and other experts of law a "juridical abort".
Not only this: Montezemolo was and is powerful enough to prevent these things from happening, exactly what Berlusconi did for Milan. While Berlusconi made understand that Mediaset would have rediscussed many contracts, Montezemolo has in his hands the biggest Italian company. Unfortunately, Montezemolo didn't even open his mouth to try to defend us, not even when asked.

He and Giraudo have alwayd been rivals and Giraudo was gaining too much power.

After having very successfully worked in many other projects, in 1993 he was chosen by Umberto Agnelli to drag Juventus in the 3rd millennium. He took the club when it gained 25 millions € a year and had a 50 millions € debt.
He chose his team (Moggi and Bettega), he balanced first and then made the finances become positive again. Without any financial help, he and his team created a football team that won anything possible and that got the richest sponsorships. Around the beginning of this century he started a very ambitious project: he fought with the city of Torino to buy their stadium (Delle Alpi), he organized what would have made of Juventus probably the richest club ever, combining the profits coming from the televisions (vital in the economy of Italian football) and the ones coming from marketing, matches revenues and other activities (a la Manchester United, so to say).
Around this time, Giraudo (and Moggi) became part of the board and Giraudo became the third shareholder of the club. We can't really know if, with the time, Giraudo would have made and OPA (tender offer?) on what had become his personal jewel, but surely he was gaining more and more prestige and this was in contrast with the other side of the family: Giraudo was an "umbertiano", while Montezemolo was on Gianni's side of the family.

The fact that Giraudo (and his team, as a consequence) wasn't well seen in the Ifil group is supported, other than by the fact that Giraudo and Montezemolo have always despised each other, by the contract renoval of a year ago.
Do you remember? In 2005 (with Umberto gone) rumors said that the 2005-06 season would have been the last of the Triade's era and in the meanwhile, we were waiting for a renoval of their contracts. We all remember Lapo's and John's comment about the Triade's work in the 2004-05 season, don't we?

The renoval came in extremis, with Ifil sushing Giraudo when he started "blabblering" about the industrial plan and the investments needed for it.
We could also add the ups and downs of the Juventus' shares between March and April, sign that something was happening..

I don't know how much influence had Ifil in the whole matter, but the fact that they didn't fight in courts does not mean they thought Juventus was guilty of anything: Moggi and Giraudo were virtually jobless after the match against Plaermo, on May 14th, when John Elkann distanced himself from them, after just a couple of phone conversations (illegally) printed on newspapers and all about Moggi asking for a certain ref for the *Berlusconi Trophy*.


About the trials ongoing, only Gazzetta and some other newspapers are treating the thing as finished. The truth is that the only who isn't fighting anymore, is Juventus.

We have the Ego di Napoli appeal to Tar (presented on Jan 11th) against the assignment of the scudetto to Inter, we have the giulemanidallajuve (presented on Jan 18th) one aiming to disallow all the decisions of the sportive courts, Moggi and Giraudo have the hearing at the Arbitrato on Feb 12th (that will allow them to appeal later to tar) and we have the De one to Tar on May 3rd.
To these we could also add the ones starting about the financial tricks of Milan and Inter, but this relatively important for us.
 

Badass J Elkann

It's time to go!!
Feb 12, 2006
68,897
#46
Rossi has a major in law (Pavia and Harvard) and was already politician (1987-1992) in the Italian communist party, on what is now *Prodi's* side, he has been in the Telecom board for many years and in the Inter one for 4. In fact he's a die hard Inter fan, something that brought him to state that "Noi dell'inter siamo puliti" (We, the interisti, are clean) and that made him see hundreds of Inter's matches next to Moratti.
Once he became FIGC commissar, he got rid of the most important judges of the sportive courts, substituting them with ones he chose, and he eliminated one degree of the sportive judice.
When Juve was safely in B, he became Telecom's new president and some of the people who worked for him this summer, followed him in Telecom.

As Telecom's president he has been almost thretaning newspapers not to write about the interecettopoli scandal (the one of the phone taps and other kinds of illegal investigations on the private life of citizens).
As many of you may know, Telecom had hackers and phone tappers who worked to gain information on people they felt as unconvenient. This info was used to threaten these people in various ways.

Here are two *very* interesting articles on the matter, printed on today's Libero (probably the only newspaper that is never afraid to write things as they are) wirtten by the two journalists of theirs who have been stalked, who have had their phones tapped and their computers hacked by telecom. I can't translate them, but those who talk Italian around here will surely be.. impressed.





Btw, you talk about wrongdoings in general, do you actually know exactly what we were judged guilty of?





You really think I'm joking? That I'm making this all up?

You are right, no one does it to piss someone else off. But no one looses hundreds of millions euro, without fighting what has been called by many prestigious lawyers and other experts of law a "juridical abort".
Not only this: Montezemolo was and is powerful enough to prevent these things from happening, exactly what Berlusconi did for Milan. While Berlusconi made understand that Mediaset would have rediscussed many contracts, Montezemolo has in his hands the biggest Italian company. Unfortunately, Montezemolo didn't even open his mouth to try to defend us, not even when asked.

He and Giraudo have alwayd been rivals and Giraudo was gaining too much power.

After having very successfully worked in many other projects, in 1993 he was chosen by Umberto Agnelli to drag Juventus in the 3rd millennium. He took the club when it gained 25 millions € a year and had a 50 millions € debt.
He chose his team (Moggi and Bettega), he balanced first and then made the finances become positive again. Without any financial help, he and his team created a football team that won anything possible and that got the richest sponsorships. Around the beginning of this century he started a very ambitious project: he fought with the city of Torino to buy their stadium (Delle Alpi), he organized what would have made of Juventus probably the richest club ever, combining the profits coming from the televisions (vital in the economy of Italian football) and the ones coming from marketing, matches revenues and other activities (a la Manchester United, so to say).
Around this time, Giraudo (and Moggi) became part of the board and Giraudo became the third shareholder of the club. We can't really know if, with the time, Giraudo would have made and OPA (tender offer?) on what had become his personal jewel, but surely he was gaining more and more prestige and this was in contrast with the other side of the family: Giraudo was an "umbertiano", while Montezemolo was on Gianni's side of the family.

The fact that Giraudo (and his team, as a consequence) wasn't well seen in the Ifil group is supported, other than by the fact that Giraudo and Montezemolo have always despised each other, by the contract renoval of a year ago.
Do you remember? In 2005 (with Umberto gone) rumors said that the 2005-06 season would have been the last of the Triade's era and in the meanwhile, we were waiting for a renoval of their contracts. We all remember Lapo's and John's comment about the Triade's work in the 2004-05 season, don't we?

The renoval came in extremis, with Ifil sushing Giraudo when he started "blabblering" about the industrial plan and the investments needed for it.
We could also add the ups and downs of the Juventus' shares between March and April, sign that something was happening..

I don't know how much influence had Ifil in the whole matter, but the fact that they didn't fight in courts does not mean they thought Juventus was guilty of anything: Moggi and Giraudo were virtually jobless after the match against Plaermo, on May 14th, when John Elkann distanced himself from them, after just a couple of phone conversations (illegally) printed on newspapers and all about Moggi asking for a certain ref for the *Berlusconi Trophy*.


About the trials ongoing, only Gazzetta and some other newspapers are treating the thing as finished. The truth is that the only who isn't fighting anymore, is Juventus.

We have the Ego di Napoli appeal to Tar (presented on Jan 11th) against the assignment of the scudetto to Inter, we have the giulemanidallajuve (presented on Jan 18th) one aiming to disallow all the decisions of the sportive courts, Moggi and Giraudo have the hearing at the Arbitrato on Feb 12th (that will allow them to appeal later to tar) and we have the De one to Tar on May 3rd.
To these we could also add the ones starting about the financial tricks of Milan and Inter, but this relatively important for us.
for being more honest than our envious rivals
 

C4ISR

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2005
2,362
#47
Well done isha00. Italian politics 101.

Dont be so naive ppl. Do your research. Stop blindly accepting views exxagerated in the media. Everything isha00 says is backed up in the OFFICIAL verdicts. Think critically, because if u do your conclusions will be different. This isn't about painting Moggi as a clean, but rather showing the politics behind the scenes. Politics which illegally made an example out of Moggi, and more importantly, Juve. This is Italy were talking about, and to be as naive as to ignore the obvious is setting yourself up for ignorance.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#48
Well done isha00. Italian politics 101.

Dont be so naive ppl. Do your research. Stop blindly accepting views exxagerated in the media. Everything isha00 says is backed up in the OFFICIAL verdicts. Think critically, because if u do your conclusions will be different. This isn't about painting Moggi as a clean, but rather showing the politics behind the scenes. Politics which illegally made an example out of Moggi, and more importantly, Juve. This is Italy were talking about, and to be as naive as to ignore the obvious is setting yourself up for ignorance.
Without the Inter and Milan rhetoric, can you guys please answer a simple question? Did Moggi manipulate matches to suit us or not? Please when you answer cut out all that crap about Rossi, Milan, Inter and politics and just answer me this? You guys and Moggi seem to be hiding behind the defence that other people did it too and used money or political power to cover their tracks. Inter is not on trial here and neither is Milan, its Moggi, I am interested in, did he do the things he has been accused of? If the answer is yes, which most of us on planet earth know the answer to, is yes, then end of story. Illegal tapping and all that are just technicalities which can be used in the court of law, but this is not the court of law, this is whether he did those things or not, how it became knowledge is irrelevant.
Now you are trying to convince me that the main reason we did not fight against a decision which is because we did not have the funds to do so? This is Juventus we are talking about not some mickey mouse club, if we were innocent its impossible to relegate us, politics or not.
Now I have read that nothing from the trials have ever come out, its just about suppositions and assumptions, so how can you possibly know what went on in those trials? All I know is that there is no way any team can be set up to be relegated to serieB and deducted 30 points with the likelihood that they were set up, talk less of the club being Juventus
 
OP
Marc

Marc

Softcore Juventino
Jul 14, 2006
21,649
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #49
    Well done isha00. Italian politics 101.

    Dont be so naive ppl. Do your research. Stop blindly accepting views exxagerated in the media. Everything isha00 says is backed up in the OFFICIAL verdicts. Think critically, because if u do your conclusions will be different. This isn't about painting Moggi as a clean, but rather showing the politics behind the scenes. Politics which illegally made an example out of Moggi, and more importantly, Juve. This is Italy were talking about, and to be as naive as to ignore the obvious is setting yourself up for ignorance.
    How can you call us naives, have you thought maybe you are naive?

    What research can you do? And if you do, do you think this is the real truth? That the "real" truth" was published?

    I don´t think so, it was left behind the walls and don´t expect to come out. I´m surprised how you or Elisa can think you are better than the politicans or the guys from media, on what basis you think you know more, please explain me. :)

    Elisa read the verdict, so what? All Italian newspapers read those verdicts and nothing came out of them, did it? The verdicts collected info that was meant to be published in the first place, they don´t collect all the words, sentences and talks in the past 2 seasons between Moggi, refs or whatsover.

    One thing in this scandal what amuses me is the way clubs have been revelated, the published transcipts are illegal way to accuse the clubs, but theye were used after all and we cannot do nothing.

    Sure, this whole scandal was dirty Juventus took the biggest blame and was hurt the most, but these thing happened before.

    This is not the first scandal that happened in Calcio and it´s still alive, isn´t it?

    Now surely, all of you people don´t think that Milan and Lazio were innocent when they were relegeted in the past, do you? I didn´t even expect so.
     

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
    #50
    Without the Inter and Milan rhetoric, can you guys please answer a simple question? Did Moggi manipulate matches to suit us or not? Please when you answer cut out all that crap about Rossi, Milan, Inter and politics and just answer me this? You guys and Moggi seem to be hiding behind the defence that other people did it too and used money or political power to cover their tracks. Inter is not on trial here and neither is Milan, its Moggi, I am interested in, did he do the things he has been accused of? If the answer is yes, which most of us on planet earth know the answer to, is yes, then end of story. Illegal tapping and all that are just technicalities which can be used in the court of law, but this is not the court of law, this is whether he did those things or not, how it became knowledge is irrelevant.
    Now you are trying to convince me that the main reason we did not fight against a decision which is because we did not have the funds to do so? This is Juventus we are talking about not some mickey mouse club, if we were innocent its impossible to relegate us, politics or not.
    Now I have read that nothing from the trials have ever come out, its just about suppositions and assumptions, so how can you possibly know what went on in those trials? All I know is that there is no way any team can be set up to be relegated to serieB and deducted 30 points with the likelihood that they were set up, talk less of the club being Juventus
    Ok, if referees are accused of making favours for Juve in the matches, could you, please, guide me to the only way those referees can defend themselves??

    Only seeing the matches chance by chance will prove if it was true or faulse to call the referees cheats. Isn't it??

    How do you explain that video defense was refused for the referees in the case??

    Don't you think this was another evidence that somebody in those courts didn't want truth to prevail??
     

    isha00

    Senior Member
    Jun 24, 2003
    5,114
    #51
    Without the Inter and Milan rhetoric, can you guys please answer a simple question? Did Moggi manipulate matches to suit us or not?
    The answer, as incredible as it may seem to you, is no.
    No Juventus match was judged as fixed in the verdicts and no ref has been judged as guilty of having favoured us.
    In the 100.000 Mogg's phone taps there's no call directly to the ref or to the linesmen and never, and I underline never, did Moggi ask Bergamo to be favoured or asked a specific ref for an official match. Never.
    But, as I already said, if you are convinced of the contrary, tell me witch matches were fixed and how.

    Now you are trying to convince me that the main reason we did not fight against a decision which is because we did not have the funds to do so? This is Juventus we are talking about not some mickey mouse club, if we were innocent its impossible to relegate us, politics or not.
    Who talked about funds? I said that there was much love going on between Montezemolo and Giraudo and when the former got the opportunity to get rid of the latter, he didn't miss it.

    Now I have read that nothing from the trials have ever come out, its just about suppositions and assumptions, so how can you possibly know what went on in those trials? All I know is that there is no way any team can be set up to be relegated to serieB and deducted 30 points with the likelihood that they were set up, talk less of the club being Juventus
    The verdicts may not report all that has been said in the trials, but in them you find the conclusions the court came to.
    In this conclusion you would read that no Juventus match was fixed and that Moggi never broke the ex 6th art., the one of the sportive illicit.
    What Moggi broke (also according to the verdict) is the ex. 1rst art., about fair play. It's the article that gets broken when supporters bring into the stadium possibly dangerous objects, when they scream that the ref's mom is a hoe, when Nedved gets banned for 5 matchdays or when Galliani says something he shouldn't have said.
    The violation of the 1rst article gets punished with fines or, at the most, field banning or a penalization of a couple of points.

    This is why (and you can read it on the 60-something page of the second verdict) a new illicit was *invented* (no, it's not an exaggeration, it's what is written on the verdict) to make a couple of violation of the first article, a violation of the sixth. This new illicit (an incredibly rectro-active illicit :eek: ) is called structural illict.

    What does it mean? That "Juventus influenced the champioship (3) and did so without influencing the decourse of the matches(1) nor their results(2)" (taken from the verdict).

    Now, considering that what happened on the pitch wasn't influenced by anything (1), we know that nothing that happened on the pitch was done in bad faith and in fact no one was punished for it: no players, no linesmen, *no referees*. So, no one acted in an irregular way and the matches weren't influenced by any illicit behavior.
    We also know that the results of the matches remained as they were at their end (2).

    But we influenced the standings (3). How, considering that the standings are nothing more than the sum of the results of the various matches (that weren't influenced in any way (1) (2))?



    Btw, it's not true that no newspapers had a say on the illogicality of this verdict. It's just that the ones which articles are translated also for foreign readers didn't. I'm talking about Gazzetta, I'm talking about Corriere della Sera..
    Il Foglio and Libero, for example, have never stopped denouncing the incredible things happened this summer. Now that I think about it, here is an article (one of the many) by Christian Rocca (writing for "Il Foglio") that I translated this summer (and not many have bothered to read, I guess).

    I found this wonderful (and very informative) article on "Il Foglio", an Italian newspaper and I translated it. Enjoy!

    Dovrei scrivere di Juventus, parlo di Inter. Della Juve ha detto tutto il presidente della Corte federale, Piero Sandulli, mica Luciano Moggi: “Non ci sono illeciti, era tutto regolare, quel campionato non è stato falsato, l’unico dubbio riguarda la partita Lecce-Parma”. E allora, direte, perché mai la B, due scudetti tolti, la Champions, la A tra due anni (basta fare i conti) e la nonna stuprata? Lo ha spiegato l’altro giudice della Corte, tal Mario Serio from Palermo, Sicily: “Abbiamo cercato di interpretare un sentimento collettivo, abbiamo ascoltato la gente comune e provato a metterci sulla lunghezza d’onda”. Molto, molto, molto serio. Nonché la conferma che l’imbroglio non era moggiopoli, ma calciopulitopoli. A questa panzana chiamata calciopoli poteva credere soltanto un paese ridicolo come il nostro e ora lo confermano anche loro, i giustizieri. Quindi è successo questo: era tutto regolare, ma siccome gli ubriachi del bar sotto la curva sud chiedevano di inchiappettare la Juve, i giudici si sono dovuti adeguare. Ma se “sentimento collettivo” aveva da essere, non avrebbero fatto prima con un semplice colpo alla nuca a Moggi Luciano?

    Complimenti all’Inter, dunque. Ai campioni d’Italia. Io, per esempio, appena mettono in vendita il dvd del loro trionfo sportivo, me lo compro subito. Vuoi mettere rivedere Camoranesi far fesso uno dei 17 argentini di Mancini, mettere al centro la formidabile palla con cui poi Ibra fa fessi altri tre sudamericani per il gol dell’uno a zero? Volendo, potrei anche recuperare la bandierina nerazzurra col 14esimo scudetto, quella raccattata dalle parti dell’Olimpico un pomeriggio del maggio 2002. Non so se avete presente: era il giorno in cui l’Inter perse uno scudetto, malgrado la squadra avversaria, compresi i tifosi, avessero fatto di tutto per regalarle il tricolore. Capitò, però, che nella Lazio giocavano un ex interista incazzato perché era stato scaricato e un ceco a cui la stessa Lazio non aveva rinnovato il contratto, mentre nell’Inter c’era il solito incapace difensore di turno. Era una partita aggiustata, quella? Zorro Zeman si sarebbe alzato dalla panchina indignato? Non importa, la palla è comunque rotonda, infatti persero i più scarsi, cioè i neocampioni d’Italia. (CONTINUA)
    I saggi di Guido Rossi, peraltro, per sanzionare il campionato “falsato-ma-non-falsato” del 2004-2005, hanno a loro volta falsato quello regolarissimo del 2005-2006, non oggetto di alcuna indagine e con i terribili designatori Pairetto e Bergamo addirittura già in pensione. Ora, finalmente, ho capito qual è il famoso illecito sportivo “concettualmente ammissibile” contestato alla Juve nella prima sentenza Caf. Vi ricordate? La Juventus è stata condannata per aver usufruito di “vantaggi in classifica” diversi da quelli ottenibili dall’alterazione del risultato o dello svolgimento di una partita. Nessuno aveva capito come si potessero ottenere “vantaggi in classifica” senza aver taroccato le partite, ma l’assegnazione dello scudetto all’Inter l’ha spiegato. Eccola la fattispecie delittuosa: è sufficiente che una “temperie” di Palazzo faccia retrocedere la Juve e tolga 30 punti al Milan perché si possa vincere lo scudetto ottenendo “vantaggi in classifica” senza bisogno di taroccare le partite. Illecito sportivo ex articolo 6, secondo la giurisprudenza Caf. Ci fosse un giudice serio con la esse minuscola sarebbe titolo revocato e Inter in B.

    Oggi le comiche, quindi, se non fosse che poi gli interisti credono davvero di essere la squadra degli onesti, come quel partito di La Malfa di cui oggi nessuno ricorda più il nome. Onesti, qualsiasi cosa voglia dire e malgrado due mesi fa – in piena calciopoli – un loro alto dirigente e un loro calciatore (Gabriele Oriali e Alvaro Recoba) abbiano patteggiato in un tribunale ordinario una pena a sei mesi di reclusione per aver falsificato un passaporto, cioè per aver tesserato un extracomunitario che non avrebbe potuto giocare. Onestissimi, qualunque cosa significhi e nonostante dieci giorni fa il Sole 24 Ore abbia raccontato di un aiutino da 60-80 milioni di euri ricevuto dalla Federcalcio guidata come un sol uomo dall’avvocato Rossi. L’Inter aveva compiuto un’operazione di “cosmesi contabile”, realizzando una plusvalenza fittizia di 158 milioni di euro. Quando la Covisoc – che è la Consob del calcio – ha chiesto all’Inter di ricapitalizzare per 100 milioni, pena la mancata iscrizione al prossimo campionato, l’Inter si è rivolta alla Federcalcio che, alè, le ha fatto uno sconticino del 60 per cento. Siccome la notizia è uscita su un giornale color salmone, e non su quello rosa che nei bar si trova sul bancone dei gelati, nessuno ha avvertito il bisogno di mettersi “sulla lunghezza d’onda” del “sentimento collettivo” che, evidentemente, considera Mancini un grande allenatore e Burdisso meglio di Zambrotta.

    Quanto alla Juve, cosa volete che aggiunga su una società che ieri sera non aveva ancora commentato il furto di scudetto? Ci fossero quegli antipatici di Giraudo e Moggi, starei tranquillo: sfiderebbero Rossi a venirseli a riprendere, quei due trofei da campioni d’Italia, e li farebbero difendere da Paolo Montero, Ciro Ferrara e Sergio Brio.

    I should write about Juventus, I’ll talk about Inter. About Juventus everything was said by Piero Sandulli, the president of the federal court, not by Luciano Moggi: “There aren't any illicit behaviors, everything was regular, that championship wasn’t falsified, the only doubt was about Lecce-Parma”. And so, you’ll say, why B, 2 scudetti taken away, A in 2 years (if you think about it) and a raped grandma? This was explained by another judge of the same court, a certain Mario Serio from Palermo, Sicily: “We tried to interpret a collective feeling, we listened to what the common people said and we tried to get in tune with them”. Very, very, very serious. And also the confirmation that the fraud was not moggiopoli, but rather “cleancalciopoli” . This joke called calciopoli could only be believed by our joke-of-a-country and now also the executioners are confirming it. So this is what happened: everything was legitimate, but since the drunk people of the bar under the curva sud wanted Juve to take it, judges had to make it so. But if they had to follow the “collective feeling”, wasn’t it easier to smack Moggi Luciano’s head?

    Congratulations to Inter, then. To the champions of Italy. I, for example, as soon as they’re gonna sell the dvds of their sportive triumphs, will surely buy them. What’s better to see Camoranesi fool one of Mancini's 17 Argentinians and then cross the ball wonderfully, with which Ibra fools 3 other South-Americans to score the 1-0 goal? I could also resume the nerazzurra flag of the 14th scudetto, the one I found close to the Olimpico an afternoon of May 2002. I don’t know if you remember: it was the day Inter lost a scudetto, even if the opponent team, tifosi included, had done their best to give it to them. But it happened that Lazio played an angry-for-having-been-dropped ex-interista and a Czech that hadn’t had his contract renewed by Lazio itself and that Inter played the usual good-for-nothing defender. Was that a fixed match? Would have Zorro Zeman got up and left indignant? It doesn’t matter, the ball is round anyway, in fact it was the weaker ones who lost, the neo-champions of Italy.

    Guido Rossi’s wise men, by the way, to punish the falsified-not falsified 2004-05 championship, have falsified the absolutely regular 2005-06 one, that wasn’t the object of any investigation and had Pairetto and Bergamo, the terrible designators, already retired. Now, finally, I understood what the “conceptually admissible” infamous sportive illegalities, the ones that Juve has been accused of in the first Caf verdict, are about. Do you remember? Juventus has been condemned for having had “advantages on the table” different from the ones obtainable by altering the result of a match or the match itself. No one had understood how you can obtain “advantages on the table” without having fixed the matches, but giving the scudetto to Inter has made everything clear. Here it goes: it’s enough having the craziness of the Palace (figc) relegating Juventus and taking 30 points away from Milan to win a scudetto, with the “advatages on the table”, without fixing the matches. Sportive illegality, under article 6, according to Caf’s jurisprudence. If there was a serious, with capital S, judge Inter’s title would be revoked and the club would go to B.

    It would be comic, if the interisti didn’t think they really are the honest team. Honest, whatever it means, even if 2 months ago – during calciopoli – an important manager and a player of theirs (Gabriele Oriali and Alvaro Recoba) have negotiated in an ordinary court 6 months of jail for having falsified a passport, that means for having made part of the club an "outside the community player" who shouldn’t have been made able to play. Very honest, whatever it means, even if 10 days ago “Sole 24 Ore” has written about a little (60-80 millions €) help by Federcalcio (figc), guided by Lawyer Rossi. Inter had done a “cosmetic-accounting” operation, getting a fake 158 millions euro worth of plus-valence. When Covisoc –Calcio’s Consob (the organization that watches over firms in the stock markets)- told Inter that they wouldn’t be able to be part of next season's Serie A if they didn’t recapitalize 100 millions Euro, Inter appealed to Federcalcio and, boom, they received a 60% discount. Since the news appeared on a salmon coloured newspaper (Sole24Ore, Italy’s most important financial newspaper) and not on a pink one, that you can find in bars over the ice-cream fridge, no one felt the need to “get in tune” with the “collective feeling” that, obviously, considers Mancini a great coach and Burdisso better than Zambrotta.

    And about Juve, what can I add about a club that, as of yesterday night, had still to denounce the scudetto-robbing? If there were Giraudo and Moggi I would be serene: they would dare Rossi to go himself to take those 2 Champions-of-Italy trophies and they would put Paolo Montero, Ciro Ferrara and Sergio Brio to defend them.


    (Many thanks to Tifoso Lou for having helped me translating :))
     
    OP
    Marc

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #52
    What about the other clubs? You find a lot of info about Juventus, may I ask you what you think of another clubs what were punished?

    And BTW this is so nice, you find a lot of interesting articles :)tup:) but does that really prove anything? To me, nothing.

    Practically, you just Copy and Paste articles from other journalists...
     

    denco

    Superior Being
    Jul 12, 2002
    4,679
    #53
    I don't know if its me misunderstanding of what you just wrote but it seems to me you are trying to tell me that we got relegated because of our supporters bring in foreign objects and calling people's mothers whores. Now i am not lawyer but no way would i be present and you tell me you are penalising my team heavily for them crimes.
    What do you mean no referee got penalised? The guy who was Italy's rep in the world cup was removed and if I am not mistaken he is still banned from matches, is he not?
    Nedved got banned for 5 matches from what i understand it, for stamping on a referees foot, if you assault a referee in any manner, the punishment is usually severe, as Di Canio and other found out, so I am not sure what Inter have got to do with that
    That article is not objective, i am sorry, does not sya anything at all about whether and how were screwed badly, its more of an anti Inter rant, whats all that crap about selling dvds and comparing camoranesi to the argentines at Inter, (personally id will take Zanetti and Cambiasso over him, but thats just me). Recoba's false passport and Inter's accounting, what has all that got to do with Juve being screwed over?
    I do not have proof of match fixing, but there were too many strange goings on last season and the seaon before as too many key players of our opponents were usually suspended whenever we met their teams.
     

    denco

    Superior Being
    Jul 12, 2002
    4,679
    #54
    Ok, if referees are accused of making favours for Juve in the matches, could you, please, guide me to the only way those referees can defend themselves??

    Only seeing the matches chance by chance will prove if it was true or faulse to call the referees cheats. Isn't it??

    How do you explain that video defense was refused for the referees in the case??

    Don't you think this was another evidence that somebody in those courts didn't want truth to prevail??
    You are not saying video evidence about referees and linesmen's mistakes would have exonerated Juventus as that would never happen. Not just Juventus but Man united, Real Madrid, Milan, Barcelona, if they used video evidence of how they have been favoured, then they will be stripped of their titles , so lets not even go into video evidence. Besides the referees and linesmen would just say human error and how do you disprove that
     
    OP
    Marc

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #55
    I guess Elisa´s point is that nothing is better now, none of the dirty stuff were solved and now IMO now Inter will be the main target in Italian football.
     

    isha00

    Senior Member
    Jun 24, 2003
    5,114
    #56
    I don't know if its me misunderstanding of what you just wrote but it seems to me you are trying to tell me that we got relegated because of our supporters bring in foreign objects and calling people's mothers whores. Now i am not lawyer but no way would i be present and you tell me you are penalising my team heavily for them crimes.
    What do you mean no referee got penalised? The guy who was Italy's rep in the world cup was removed and if I am not mistaken he is still banned from matches, is he not?
    Yeah, De Santis. But have you ever checked what match was he banned for? It's for Lecce-Parma, ended 3-3. This is the only match he was accused of fixing and he was the only ref having found guilty of something.

    As for what I wrote, I said that Moggi was found guilty of having broken the 1rst article, the same one that punishes all the other facts that I mentioned. This doesn't mean we got punished for those facts, it means that we got punished this way for something that is equipared by the sportive law to those actions.
    I told you this to point out that there was no art 6th broken (art 6 is the one that gets clubs relegated) and that the illicit we were found guilty of was *invented* by the sportive court just for us.

    Still, no one answered me: tell me just a theory that could explain how the structural illicit I explained before is possible.

    I do not have proof of match fixing, but there were too many strange goings on last season and the seaon before as too many key players of our opponents were usually suspended whenever we met their teams.
    You don't have proof and you wouldn't even be able to point at a particular episode of something fixed.
    Still, you have no problem in believing in what Gazzetta writes. The same Gazzetta that has Verdelli as director and Carlo Orazio Buora in their board. Carlo Orazio Buora: vice president of Inter, Pirelli and Telecom.

    Btw, the only season that has been judged as falsified is the 2004-05 season. The 2005-06 is perfectly clean (and still we paid for that too).
    Anyway, I was wondering: if you were so sure we were thieves (long before the beginning of the scandal), why did you keep on supporting these robbers?

    What about the other clubs? You find a lot of info about Juventus, may I ask you what you think of another clubs what were punished?

    And BTW this is so nice, you find a lot of interesting articles :)tup:) but does that really prove anything? To me, nothing.

    Practically, you just Copy and Paste articles from other journalists...
    Have you ever realized that what you read this summer about the scandal, is nothing else than the summary of what various international newspapers copied and pasted from what Gazzetta (and only Gazzetta) wrote? What did they prove to you?

    So you trust only Gazzetta and everything else doesn't even open your mind at least a bit? The article I just posted is about 2 topics: Inter failed because it wasn't strong enough to compete, Juventus was relegated because of the invention of the structural illicit. It's not something made up by anyone, they are facts.

    Really, it doesn't even make you wonder how we were able to influence an entire championship without influencing the matches? Has everything become just a dogma, to be believed blindly?
     
    OP
    Marc

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #57
    I never said I read Gazzetta, they are biased just like Tuttosport.

    And you haven´t answered my question.
     

    denco

    Superior Being
    Jul 12, 2002
    4,679
    #58
    In effect ,Juventus the most successful club in Italian history, first club to win all major European competitions, reigning Italian champions, was relegated on trumped up charges? Things that were invented?
    FYI, I do not read gazetta, how can i, my Italian is non existent, i saw most if not all our matches and i was always amazed about how whenever we played most teams, key players were always missing

    I support the players, and the players only, i am not interested at all in our board, so come of the nonsense about, if i knew they were robbers, how come i still supported them. It would be different if it was proven they were in on the act as that would have disappointed me, so thats why i don't buy into the horseshit of abusing players who left.
    Again the findings of the trials were never made public but somehow you know for a fact that its only Lecce - Parma which there was match fixing
    How convenient for that to be the case, yes go after the smaller clubs and accuse them and do not penalise either parma or Lecce but penalise Milan, Juventus, Fiorentina, Reginna and Lazio
    Again if Juventus are stripped of title 2004/2005, being a serieB club the nexty season cos they they have been relegated, how can they possibly vie for serieA in 2005/2006, is the logic behind stripping both titles
    You cannot strip a team of a title in 2004/2005 and then say they are champs the next season, with the same management, same board, same players, it does not make any sense
    The senseless thing though is that they ought not to have awarded Inter the title, it should have been voided as noone has told me who were crowned serieA champs in season 2004/2005
     
    OP
    Marc

    Marc

    Softcore Juventino
    Jul 14, 2006
    21,649
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #59
    Yeah, De Santis. But have you ever checked what match was he banned for? It's for Lecce-Parma, ended 3-3. This is the only match he was accused of fixing and he was the only ref having found guilty of something.
    Why were this clubs then not been punished?
     

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
    #60
    In effect ,Juventus the most successful club in Italian history, first club to win all major European competitions, reigning Italian champions, was relegated on trumped up charges? Things that were invented?
    FYI, I do not read gazetta, how can i, my Italian is non existent, i saw most if not all our matches and i was always amazed about how whenever we played most teams, key players were always missing
    How do you know that it was not coincidence?

    How do you justify banning Ibra all those important matches although Juve had affected the other clubs banning??

    How do you know that the club now is acting properly although one of the most important players in Rimini is suspended for 4 matches??

    And I have to tell you that your reply about "video evidences to defend referees" was a big joke...
     
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