Moggi: I Wanted To Kill Myself (4 Viewers)

[denco]

How do you know that it was not coincidence?

How do you justify banning Ibra all those important matches although Juve had affected the other clubs banning??

How do you know that the club now is acting properly although one of the most important players in Rimini is suspended for 4 matches??And I have to tell you that your reply about "video evidences to defend referees" was a big joke...

Did you say banning Ibra? Did he stop being banned at Inter? Coincidence? This is your defence, how do i know its not all coincidence? The Rimini player is banned for 4 matches, he must have done something bad, i am talking about players getting yellow cards for silly things so just they miss matches against us, big difference. How are you equating the 2 situations? The Rimini player may miss games not only against us but against our rivals but in the past , its being against us only, thats the advantage right there.
Please explain how they would have used video evidence to prove anything

 

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[C4ISR]

How can you call us naives, have you thought maybe you are naive?

You brush over/ignore the TIM/FIGC/Inter links like they mean nothing, yet u subscribe to the fact Moggi had links with league officials who were all proven innocent. Yet im naive?

What research can you do? And if you do, do you think this is the real truth? That the "real" truth" was published?

Im open minded, think critically, and know enough about Italian culture and politics to know the views expressed in the media are far from the truth. I have yet to hear any convincing arguments based on valid points from anyone. Rather, they just try and paint ppl as conspiracy theorists, and make them out to be illogical, when in fact alot of what ishaa00 says is way more logical than the rulings ppl like u bend over for.

I don´t think so, it was left behind the walls and don´t expect to come out. I´m surprised how you or Elisa can think you are better than the politicans or the guys from media, on what basis you think you know more, please explain me. :

"Guys from the media". So the fact these "guys from the media" constantly refer to it as a "match fixing" scandal despite the fact the verdicts clearly show otherwise means nothing? Such a fundamental misunderstanding proves their nothing but trolls, and that they clearly have their facts backwards. Also, lets not forget this whole scandal came to light because "guys from the media" illegally published transcripts. Coincidentally, these "guys from the media" who leaked the tapes just happened to work for a paper run by Inter/TIM vice president.

I will never adopt views from media who wrongly label a scandal or who have such clear allegiances to other clubs. That doesn't mean I think Tuttosport is the bible, but like ishaa00 showed, there are media out there willing to think freely without reprocussions from their parent company's.

As for the politicians part. I hope you're joking.

Elisa read the verdict, so what? All Italian newspapers read those verdicts and nothing came out of them, did it? The verdicts collected info that was meant to be published in the first place, they don´t collect all the words, sentences and talks in the past 2 seasons between Moggi, refs or whatsover.

So just because the mainstream media decided not to print the truth, that means the truth doesn't exist!? They sensationalized every aspect of the scandal, to the point Juve were guilty b4 the trials even begun. They took out of context what Moggi said proove their venemous bullshit. Is ti any surprise y all the "transcripts" printed by various media across the world are different in many critical places than the official ones? No, they did it on purpose, in the spirit of creating a story, and as they say, the rest was history. Also, you're point ignores the clear bias Italian media has. U think the Gazzetta is going to print bad things about Inter? Obviously not. Does that mean they dont exist? No. Your point illustrates the power of the media.

One thing in this scandal what amuses me is the way clubs have been revelated, the published transcipts are illegal way to accuse the clubs, but theye were used after all and we cannot do nothing.

Yes we can do something about it. What they did was illegal, as in against the law. Y should Juve give in and bow to a system that bent the rules to convict them? Thats hypocritical, and any1 with an ounce of integrity would never succumb to such injustices. Justice is supposed to be blind and impartial, 2 things it definetly was not.

Sure, this whole scandal was dirty Juventus took the biggest blame and was hurt the most, but these thing happened before.

Exactly, but if we let this go unnoticed, it will happen again. By not learning from history we are bound to repeat it.

This is not the first scandal that happened in Calcio and it´s still alive, isn´t it?

That has nothing to do with this issue. Its about whats right, not about survival in the long run. Its about people being held accountable, not people being made scapegoats. Juve were overly punished, on the basis of rulings that are both contradictory and occured in a court that denied the rights of the accused. The ends dont justify the means, and in this case, the ends were bullshit. Juve's image will be forever tarnished because of the work of Interista. I will never accept that, and any Juve fan who does, isn't a real fan.

 

[Ascension]

i always criticised his buying policy and the way we have played since he has been here which is geared towards power players than skill.

Zidane, Cannavaro and Emerson are not good players? int:

Is Zidane not a skillful player?

 

[isha00]

In effect ,Juventus the most successful club in Italian history, first club to win all major European competitions, reigning Italian champions, was relegated on trumped up charges? Things that were invented?
FYI, I do not read gazetta, how can i, my Italian is non existent, i saw most if not all our matches and i was always amazed about how whenever we played most teams, key players were always missing

You don't realize it, but you read gazzetta, every day. How?
It's very simple. Most of the articles published by international media about Italian football and about the scandal are simply the translated summaries of what gazzetta writes. Pay some attention, next time you read an article from goal.com or whatever: they write their source.

Anyway, about the players missing, here I have the stats about that season about the number of players each club avoided to play against because of bans:

Atalanta 31
Bologna 27
Reggina 26
Juve 25
Brescia e Lecce 24
Lazio e Parma 23
Inter, Doria e Udinese 22
Cagliari e Siena 21
Milan 20
Livorno 19
Chievo e Messina 18
Palermo 15
Fiorentina 13
Roma 11

As you can see, Juventus is fourth and with only 3 more suspensions than Inter. The first 2 clubs (Atalanta and Bologna) following your train of thought were the most helped in this sense: yet, they both were relegated at the end of that season. Plus, Juventus certainly didn't need Udinese's players to be banned, did it?
Anyway, as the verdict states, Juventus did nothing to alter the decourse of the matches and no ref involved with Juventus was banned. Someone had to be corrupted to give yellows around just to favour Juventus, or not? Still, no one was found guilty of it.

I support the players, and the players only, i am not interested at all in our board, so come of the nonsense about, if i knew they were robbers, how come i still supported them. It would be different if it was proven they were in on the act as that would have disappointed me, so thats why i don't buy into the horseshit of abusing players who left.

You supported the players of a club you thought cheated and you still kept on supporting them.
In fact you didn't support the players themselves, you supported the players bought by Luciano Moggi for Juventus , players that were supposedly favoured in their victories.

Again the findings of the trials were never made public but somehow you know for a fact that its only Lecce - Parma which there was match fixing
How convenient for that to be the case, yes go after the smaller clubs and accuse them and do not penalise either parma or Lecce but penalise Milan, Juventus, Fiorentina, Reginna and Lazio

Wrong. The verdicts are accessible to anyone in Internet. I already provided the links lots of times.

Anyway, the fixing of the Lecce Parma match was judged as in favour of Fiorentina, that's why the 2 clubs didn't pay for it.

(...) tendenti ad ottenere un
vantaggio per la A.C.F. Fiorentina S.p.A., consistito nella salvezza conseguita dalla
squadra viola al termine di tale ultima giornata di campionato, in conseguenza anche della
alterazione del risultato della partita Lecce-Parma, per il tramite della designazione di un
arbitro che, con la propria direzione di gara, scongiurasse la possibilità di una vittoria del
Parma e che garantisse, quindi, alla Fiorentina il vantaggio suddetto (ex art. 6, commi 1 e
2, C.G.S.), come descritto nella parte motiva concernente la gara in oggetto.

 

[isha00]

I never said I read Gazzetta, they are biased just like Tuttosport.

And you haven´t answered my question.

You read Gazzetta, indirectly, but you read it. I already explained how.

Sure I answered your question: you said that that article didn't prove anything, I answered that its main points were the weakness of Inter as a team and the fact that a new sportive illicit was invented just to transform a couple of infractions of the first article, in an infraction of the 6th.

Btw, now that you reminded me, you didn't answer my question: how did Moggi influence an entire championship without influencing its matches?

 

[Il Re]

Zidane, Cannavaro and Emerson are not good players? int:

Is Zidane not a skillful player?

He's right you know, in general apart from some exeptions we dont seem tog o fro technical players

 

[denco]

You don't realize it, but you read gazzetta, every day. How?
It's very simple. Most of the articles published by international media about Italian football and about the scandal are simply the translated summaries of what gazzetta writes. Pay some attention, next time you read an article from goal.com or whatever: they write their source.

Anyway, about the players missing, here I have the stats about that season about the number of players each club avoided to play against because of bans:

Atalanta 31
Bologna 27
Reggina 26
Juve 25
Brescia e Lecce 24
Lazio e Parma 23
Inter, Doria e Udinese 22
Cagliari e Siena 21
Milan 20
Livorno 19
Chievo e Messina 18
Palermo 15
Fiorentina 13
Roma 11

As you can see, Juventus is fourth and with only 3 more suspensions than Inter. The first 2 clubs (Atalanta and Bologna) following your train of thought were the most helped in this sense: yet, they both were relegated at the end of that season. Plus, Juventus certainly didn't need Udinese's players to be banned, did it?
Anyway, as the verdict states, Juventus did nothing to alter the decourse of the matches and no ref involved with Juventus was banned. Someone had to be corrupted to give yellows around just to favour Juventus, or not? Still, no one was found guilty of it.




You supported the players of a club you thought cheated and you still kept on supporting them.
In fact you didn't support the players themselves, you supported the players bought by Luciano Moggi for Juventus , players that were supposedly favoured in their victories.


Wrong. The verdicts are accessible to anyone in Internet. I already provided the links lots of times.

Anyway, the fixing of the Lecce Parma match was judged as in favour of Fiorentina, that's why the 2 clubs didn't pay for it.

In effect according to you, everything gazetta wrote about the matter was a lie, huge falsehood to tarnish the name of Juventus a,d elevate Inter to the status of Italian league champs by hook or by crook, thats your theory? So what if Atalanta and Bologna had the highest number of suspension against the opponents they were facing, whats that prove? Firstly it depends on which players of the opposition was/were suspended and also neither of those 2 teams were going for the title and it did not matter who they were playing against they were not good enough to win matches. Bologna were in fact relegated through play offs against Parma if memory serves right.
What was your comment about Udinese about anyways? You do remember when we made that last gasp winning of scudetto in Lippi's second coming, udinese were the team we played on the last day, the same udinese who had just escaped relegation the previous week by beating lecce, i think it was, thus making life easier for us on that day. Cos if they were fighting for their lives on that day, things might have been different.
I still do not know what my supporting juventus has got to do with anything, you think they have been wronged, i think they have not been wronged, relegation to serieB is what the moggi led board got us into and all the court technicalities you guys are trying to put accross does not wash with me. Now that does not stop me from supporting the club, and what has me liking juventus players in spite them being brought by Moggi got to do with anything
I do not do sins of the father, i am not against Moggi's kids, wife or any other member of his family, its the guy himself , i cannot stand
So the fact that whilst Moggi was there, i like trez, nedved, zidane, inzaghi, dp, davids and countesss others is totally irrelevant
You on the other hand seem to be hiding behind blinkers, its almost like your world would come to an end if in fact it is true we under Moggi were wrondoers, so you accept every little article which portrays Inter in a bad light and reject anything against Juventus
Countless of fans and ex footballers of the Italian league have been saying for years that we have been favoured too much but you want to totally discount all of that
I guess the fact that OJ was not found guilty in the court of law means that he did not infact kill anybody
I am sure all those telephone calls were not by Moggi but by an impersonator hired by Moratti

 

[Marc]

1. You brush over/ignore the TIM/FIGC/Inter links like they mean nothing, yet u subscribe to the fact Moggi had links with league officials who were all proven innocent. Yet im naive?

2. Im open minded, think critically, and know enough about Italian culture and politics to know the views expressed in the media are far from the truth. I have yet to hear any convincing arguments based on valid points from anyone. Rather, they just try and paint ppl as conspiracy theorists, and make them out to be illogical, when in fact alot of what ishaa00 says is way more logical than the rulings ppl like u bend over for.


3. "Guys from the media". So the fact these "guys from the media" constantly refer to it as a "match fixing" scandal despite the fact the verdicts clearly show otherwise means nothing? Such a fundamental misunderstanding proves their nothing but trolls, and that they clearly have their facts backwards. Also, lets not forget this whole scandal came to light because "guys from the media" illegally published transcripts. Coincidentally, these "guys from the media" who leaked the tapes just happened to work for a paper run by Inter/TIM vice president.

4. I will never adopt views from media who wrongly label a scandal or who have such clear allegiances to other clubs. That doesn't mean I think Tuttosport is the bible, but like ishaa00 showed, there are media out there willing to think freely without reprocussions from their parent company's.

5. As for the politicians part. I hope you're joking.



6. So just because the mainstream media decided not to print the truth, that means the truth doesn't exist!? They sensationalized every aspect of the scandal, to the point Juve were guilty b4 the trials even begun. They took out of context what Moggi said proove their venemous bullshit. Is ti any surprise y all the "transcripts" printed by various media across the world are different in many critical places than the official ones? No, they did it on purpose, in the spirit of creating a story, and as they say, the rest was history. Also, you're point ignores the clear bias Italian media has. U think the Gazzetta is going to print bad things about Inter? Obviously not. Does that mean they dont exist? No. Your point illustrates the power of the media.


7. Yes we can do something about it. What they did was illegal, as in against the law. Y should Juve give in and bow to a system that bent the rules to convict them? Thats hypocritical, and any1 with an ounce of integrity would never succumb to such injustices. Justice is supposed to be blind and impartial, 2 things it definetly was not.


8. Exactly, but if we let this go unnoticed, it will happen again. By not learning from history we are bound to repeat it.


9. That has nothing to do with this issue. Its about whats right, not about survival in the long run. Its about people being held accountable, not people being made scapegoats. Juve were overly punished, on the basis of rulings that are both contradictory and occured in a court that denied the rights of the accused. The ends dont justify the means, and in this case, the ends were bullshit. Juve's image will be forever tarnished because of the work of Interista. I will never accept that, and any Juve fan who does, isn't a real fan.

1. It is opposite way actually, you hold on to the links TIM/FIGC/Inter too much. Yes, I subscribe to the fact Moggi had links with league officials, because he talked to them, even he admitted that.

2. I am in the same situation too, but you are a Juventus supporter, right? It is in your nature to defend your club and blindly believe Moggi was innocent.

3. I never said it was "match fixing" but Moggi talked too much with the referees, that says you something, doesn´t it? Funny how neither of the punished clubs didn´t moan about the "illegal" transcripts.

4. And I won´t trust Elisa. She doesn´t have a proof for anything, just assumptions based probably on journalists which symapthise Juventus.

5. That was a sarcastic joke, I apologise.

6. That is my point also. Juventus were shown like the biggest devil while I doubt that´s true. Truth exists, but I doubt it will come out.

7. I doubt you can do anything about it. After all, we avoided Serie C and our point deduction was reduced twice. You can forget our 2 Scudetto´s.

8. I agree.

9. Wait a minute here. Milan was relegated 20 years before. Are they a forgotten club now? They came back stronger than ever and people don´t recognise them as worldwide cheaters, do they? Milan is well respected and organised clubs even though they went through similar situation like we do now.

 

[Boudz]

Interesting stuff Isha, i'm gonna try 2 summarize what u've been trying 2 say. correct me if i'm wrong:
- Giraudo was getting too powerful and the post-Umberto group were afraid Giraudo would take Juve away
- They collaborate with Rossi and Telecom Italia to bring down the Triade
- They accept the summer convictions because that was the plan from the start
- The reigns at Juve return to the post-Umberto group
- The post-Umberto group allow Juve to become Inter's Bitches, cos they know that a 2nd placed Juve is better than no Juve (Giraudo's Juve)

okay i might be way off but it makes alot of sense, wasnt there some kind of Rumor that Lapo Elkann was in charge of the ceremony when Inter were given Juve's scudetto?

 

[Marc]

So, let me get this straight?

"The post-Umberto group" is happier with Giraudo away and Juve as Inter´s bitches than the most richest and succesfull Juve with Giraudo?

 

[Ascension]

He's right you know, in general apart from some exeptions we dont seem tog o fro technical players

Yes. But saying he didn't sign technical players at all would be incorrect...

 

[denco]

Yes. But saying he didn't sign technical players at all would be incorrect...

Nobody said anything about not signing any at all, i implied he preferred power to skilful, besides Cannavaro and Emerson are not skilful players. Too many times we have been crying out for creativity, but we fell short and the amount of players we had out on loan was incredible. Youth set up was a shambles as very few went from youth to first team if any, I mean Dp was the last to do so and thats donkey years ago. Look at Arsenal and Barcelona and the conveyor belt of talent coming through. We on the other hand were spending millions on old timers like nedved, cannavaro, thuram, vieira and emerson to name a few. Jun-hide was making fun of Inter turning down 50m for Vieri but we were also prepeared to pay handsomely for Vieri before Capello kiboshed that deal by saying he wanted Trez to stay. This is not to say he was a total failure when it came to transfers as he did some good stuff, i just was not as impressed as some people here with his transfers. Buffon is a fantastic goal keeper, one of the best i have seen but i would never have paid 33m on a goal keeper

 

[Ascension]

Cannavaro, the most talented defender of newer time along with no other than Nesta does not possess skill?!?

You've chosen the wrong sport to play smart in, denco.

edit: And Buffon is the best goalkeeper that has ever existed on this planet. I would have payed 100 Million Euro for him!!

 

[Marc]

Denco is right on this, Cannavaro is a skilled player? What makes you think that?

He is a great defender who is hard to pass by, with good passing, marking and positioning, but what skills are you talking about? His dribbling, vision or technique?

 

[denco]

Cannavaro, the most talented defender of newer time along with no other than Nesta does not possess skill?!?

You've chosen the wrong sport to play smart in, denco.

edit: And Buffon is the best goalkeeper that has ever existed on this planet. I would have payed 100 Million Euro for him!!

Cannavaro is talented, very but he is not skilful, not at all, skill wise he is inferior to maldini, carvalho, thuram, marquez, edmilson, terry, ferdinand, barzagli, nesta and so many others in which i am too tired to mention, they might not be better than he is but they surely mire skilful on the ball than he is.
Why would you pay 100m for a position that does not win you matches, it can guarantee you not getting beaten but it would not win you matches
A case in point is Inter winning matches and going on their run with an ordinary goalkeeper as are Roma
Last season when we were on our good run and were winning almost every game, abbiati was actually the goal keeper , not buffon
Great as he is , 33m is too much for a goal keeper, Valdez cost nothing at Barcelona, he is not that good, but he has 2 consecutive liga medals and a cl medal

 

[Ascension]

Denco is right on this, Cannavaro is a skilled player? What makes you think that?

He is a great defender who is hard to pass by, with good passing, marking and positioning, but what skills are you talking about? His dribbling, vision or technique?

His defending (tackling, positioning and heading) and his passing. All world class.

Last time I checked 'defending' was always a skill.

 

[Ascension]

Cannavaro is talented, very but he is not skilful, not at all, skill wise he is inferior to maldini, carvalho, thuram, marquez, edmilson, terry, ferdinand, barzagli, nesta and so many others in which i am too tired to mention, they might not be better than he is but they surely mire skilful on the ball than he is.
Why would you pay 100m for a position that does not win you matches, it can guarantee you not getting beaten but it would not win you matches
A case in point is Inter winning matches and going on their run with an ordinary goalkeeper as are Roma
Last season when we were on our good run and were winning almost every game, abbiati was actually the goal keeper , not buffon
Great as he is , 33m is too much for a goal keeper, Valdez cost nothing at Barcelona, he is not that good, but he has 2 consecutive liga medals and a cl medal

Valdez and Cesar are both world class. You must be blindfolded not to see this.

 

[C4ISR]

1. It is opposite way actually, you hold on to the links TIM/FIGC/Inter too much. Yes, I subscribe to the fact Moggi had links with league officials, because he talked to them, even he admitted that.

The links help demonstrate y Inter escaped the scandal. Their not going to shoot themselves in the foot. There were Interista running the league, and Interista in the FIGC. Can u imagine the public outcry if they were Juventino? Its the hypocrisy of Italy. Is it any surprise y Inter not only escaped the tapes (despite the fact numerous league officials stating on record 1 of their busiest customers were Inter), and even benefitted from this scandal? Thats not a coincidence.

2. I am in the same situation too, but you are a Juventus supporter, right? It is in your nature to defend your club and blindly believe Moggi was innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Moggi didn't fix matches or bribe official, 2 things clearly shown in the verdicts. I have never once claimed Moggi was a saint. However, he was clearly made a scapegoat for this scandal. He was hung out to dry because of other clubs dirty laundry.

3. I never said it was "match fixing" but Moggi talked too much with the referees, that says you something, doesn´t it? Funny how neither of the punished clubs didn´t moan about the "illegal" transcripts.

Moggi talked with league officials who a) were found innocent, and b) nothing incrminating was said, a fact numerous magistrates across Italy have stated, as well as by the ppl who actually collected the tapes; the ordinary justice. Only through a nice marriage of Interista could it become a scandal.
Also, y would the other clubs moan about a scandal they got off easy on? They were over the moon with the fact they are still in serie a, and in Milan's case, CL as as well.

4. And I won´t trust Elisa. She doesn´t have a proof for anything, just assumptions based probably on journalists which symapthise Juventus.

Thats where you're wrong. She posted links to the official verdict, and even told u what pages to go to. Its all right there, all u have to do is read it.

6. That is my point also. Juventus were shown like the biggest devil while I doubt that´s true. Truth exists, but I doubt it will come out.

It will, just as long as Juventino continue to make it an issue. If we tap out this early in the game, we are resigning to a fate created for us by Interista.

9. Wait a minute here. Milan was relegated 20 years before. Are they a forgotten club now? They came back stronger than ever and people don´t recognise them as worldwide cheaters, do they? Milan is well respected and organised clubs even though they went through similar situation like we do now.

Thats not the point. I could care less if the wounds eventually heal. The fact is, those wounds were illegally inflicted on us by a far from impartial system clearly set up to hurt us. Juve's growth has been stunted because of this, something which will work in clubs like Inter's favour, as they can win watered down leagues. Its about whats right, and just because launching a successful appeal looks like a dead end, thats no reason to give up. By not doing anything, were giving ppl like Rossi, Moratti, Buora a green light to pull this stunt again.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Nobody knows anything, I don't know why you guys keep wasting posts about this. Especially since it's in the past now. Let's just say this...on the day of judgment we'll find out whether Moggi indeed was guilty or not. Until then, he's innocent.

 

[isha00]

In effect according to you, everything gazetta wrote about the matter was a lie, huge falsehood to tarnish the name of Juventus a,d elevate Inter to the status of Italian league champs by hook or by crook, thats your theory?

Theory or not, I showed you that what was written didn't correspond to the truth.

Anyway, I repeat, Gazzetta is interista. You can see watching their titles day per day (that it's what meets the eye) and the fact is confirmed by the fact that Buora (who is part of their board) managed to put Verdelli -interista- as the director of the newspaper.
Gazzetta is the same paper that printed the verdicts days before they were pubblished by the courts. Strange.

So what if Atalanta and Bologna had the highest number of suspension against the opponents they were facing, whats that prove? Firstly it depends on which players of the opposition was/were suspended and also neither of those 2 teams were going for the title and it did not matter who they were playing against they were not good enough to win matches. Bologna were in fact relegated through play offs against Parma if memory serves right.

Exactly: if the yellows given around were caused by the will to favour this or that club or, better, if they had been given around to favour Juventus, the distribution of them wouldn't have "favoured" Inter and Juventus almost equally and Bologna and such clubs wouldn't be at the top of the list.

There is also a phone tap printed (sigh) where it's obvious that Moggi didn't know and didn't care about these things. A journalist friend of his says (in the phone call) "hey Luciano, three out of three, eh?" Moggi asks what he is talking about and the journalist explains that the club that Juventus had to play the following week had had 3 players booked. At this point Moggi asks him how many of them were only a yellow to suspension and it's the journalist that informs him that all 3 were going to be suspended.

What was your comment about Udinese about anyways? You do remember when we made that last gasp winning of scudetto in Lippi's second coming, udinese were the team we played on the last day, the same udinese who had just escaped relegation the previous week by beating lecce, i think it was, thus making life easier for us on that day. Cos if they were fighting for their lives on that day, things might have been different.

I said Udinese because it's the first club that we beat home and away in the 2004/05 season that came to my mind.
About the 2001/02 season (are we doubting that too?) theory, what does it mean, exactly? How were they favoured in reaching that goal before playing against us? Are you telling me that you think we won the May 5th scudetto by cheating?

Anyway, you see yourself that there are just a couple of banned players of difference between Juve and Inter. And you really think that a club that played Buffon, Zebina, Thuram, Cannavaro, Zambrotta, Camoranesi, Emerson, Blasi, Nedved, Trezeguet (Del Piero) and Ibrahimovic had to fear players of minor clubs to the point of having them banned?

I still do not know what my supporting juventus has got to do with anything, you think they have been wronged, i think they have not been wronged, relegation to serieB is what the moggi led board got us into and all the court technicalities you guys are trying to put accross does not wash with me. Now that does not stop me from supporting the club, and what has me liking juventus players in spite them being brought by Moggi got to do with anything I do not do sins of the father, i am not against Moggi's kids, wife or any other member of his family, its the guy himself , i cannot stand
So the fact that whilst Moggi was there, i like trez, nedved, zidane, inzaghi, dp, davids and countesss others is totally irrelevant

No, you see: you said that you thought Juve was cheating before of the scandal. So, you had no problems in supporting and cheering for people that you thought didn't act rightly and you had no problems in celebrating victories you were convinced arrived through unclear actions.
It's very different from keeping on supporting a club *after* it was accused and it got rid of the dirt :wink:

Btw, Moggi was really relevant, because it's him that brought those players to the club you support.

You on the other hand seem to be hiding behind blinkers, its almost like your world would come to an end if in fact it is true we under Moggi were wrondoers, so you accept every little article which portrays Inter in a bad light and reject anything against Juventus

I just don't like injustices and I care, a lot, that laws are applied in the right way.

It's not about the scudetti or whatever: the scudetti will always remain of the people that have experienced the feelings that came with them and B is our world just for this year. It's not even about being pointed at as cheater. Who the hell cares?

This for many people (me included) has become a battle against corruption, against conflict of interests, against the breaking of basic human rights.
I'm not fighting just because it's Juventus, I'm fighting as I always fought when I had the chance to, for matters from human to political.

Countless of fans and ex footballers of the Italian league have been saying for years that we have been favoured too much but you want to totally discount all of that

Opponents that lost against us, tried to excuse themselves by saying we cheated. Very objective..

I guess the fact that OJ was not found guilty in the court of law means that he did not infact kill anybody

I guess women of the middle age were witches because because people thought that they were. It goes both ways :wink:

I am sure all those telephone calls were not by Moggi but by an impersonator hired by Moratti

I think that those phone calls were by Moggi and didn't mean anything, as you would hear and read 1 & 2 if you knew italian.

Btw I already said that the Prosecutor Office of Turin has heard and studied these taps and the conclusion of the judges was that the championships weren't falsified in any way.
The differences between a court made of judges that have been hired after having passed a strict exam and one made of people named by Guido Rossi (interista), huh?

And, about my question on the structural illicit?