Messi vs C.Ronaldo (76 Viewers)

[Nedved96]

So youre not a stathead huh? What did your eyetest tell you? Oh no wait, you probably didnt watch those games. That is a tougher/equally tough route to Argentinas. And that is a worse team than Argentin. Which you always conveniantly ignore. Argentina ia supposed to be contenders, always. Portugal? Are they better than that Croatia? That Wales dismantled Belgium, and passed a group of Russia, England, Slovakia. Portugal barely qualified from a abysmal group, they were far from a top team then. You cant say they were favorites by name alone, actual facts show otherwise. The lack of understanding you have on how they won and how impressive that was is shoking

You hype up Argentina based on the players they had on paper, despite the fact that they’ve mostly had shit coaches, a bad gameplan and a mediocre balance in the team. At the same time, when you talk about Portugal then you are suddenly talking about quality of play on the pitch. That is exposing another flaw in your reasoning.

Cristiano Ronaldo, Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes, Pepe, Raphael Guerreiro, Ricardo Pereira, William Carvalho, Rui Patricio, Moutinho... Portugal had plenty of good players on paper going into the 2018 World Cup. The team was certainly good enough to beat Uruguay if Ronaldo had showed up that day.

The manner in which you try to pretend like Portugal is an absolutely shit team is just silly. You actually tried to compare Portugal to Greece 2004... come on man. Portugal was better than every opponent they faced in 2016 until they faced France.

Messi’s losses at the World Cup are to Germany in 2010, Germany in 2014, and France in 2018. In the same timespan, Ronaldo’s losses are to Spain in 2010, USA in 2014, and Uruguay in 2018. Hard to argue that Messi’s World Cup career isn’t better. Neither have a great World Cup legacy, but Messi’s is better.

And where did i say La Liga is irrelevant? I said its a competition where he most talented team mostly wins, and its most of the time won by beating on small teams rather than in the derbies.
Abilty is all great, but it needs to translate onto the pitch. If Messi scores hattricks left and right in La Liga, and then is shut down vs us in both games (for example), then that means his ability didnt translate to a higher level. Im not saying Messi is bad, far from it, but this shows he cant bring it regularly on a higher level. Maybe he cant handle the extra physicality, maybe he needs extra space, maybe the way he plays isnt effective for the high quality matches. Whatever it is, Ronaldo has done it better and more frequently throughout his career

El Classico from 2009-2018 was probably the highest level of football played anywhere on earth, and Messi shone brighter than Ronaldo in those games for basically in an entire decade, but that’s beside the point.

In general, my problem with rating players on Champions League knockouts is not only that not only do these games represent only a very small percentage of games in a season (10%), but more importantly, they are often decided by factors outside of the control of a single player. Ramos stepping up and scoring CL final goals in 2014 and 2016. The referees giving Madrid some very favourable decisions during Zidane’s first stint.

In general, although cup competitions can be very entertaining, they are a very flawed method to judge a player by. As a Juve fan, you should be more aware than anyone else of how much luck and random factors can influence cup competitions.

When I rate players, I rate them based on a combination:

1. natural ability
2. relentless consistency at league level
3. big game performances

Messi wins (1) and (2), even if I concede that Ronaldo wins (3), it wouldn’t make him the better player in my eyes because my criteria is fundamentally different from yours.

 

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[zizinho]

You hype up Argentina based on the players they had on paper, despite the fact that they’ve mostly had shit coaches, a bad gameplan and a mediocre balance in the team. At the same time, when you talk about Portugal then you are suddenly talking about quality of play on the pitch. That is exposing another flaw in your reasoning.

Cristiano Ronaldo, Bernardo Silva, Bruno Fernandes, Pepe, Raphael Guerreiro, Ricardo Pereira, William Carvalho, Rui Patricio, Moutinho... Portugal had plenty of good players on paper going into the 2018 World Cup. The team was certainly good enough to beat Uruguay if Ronaldo had showed up that day.

The manner in which you try to pretend like Portugal is an absolutely shit team is just silly. You actually tried to compare Portugal to Greece 2004... come on man. Portugal was better than every opponent they faced in 2016 until they faced France.

Messi’s losses at the World Cup are to Germany in 2010, Germany in 2014, and France in 2018. In the same timespan, Ronaldo’s losses are to Spain in 2010, USA in 2014, and Uruguay in 2018. Hard to argue that Messi’s World Cup career isn’t better. Neither have a great World Cup legacy, but Messi’s is better.


El Classico from 2009-2018 was probably the highest level of football played anywhere on earth, and Messi shone brighter than Ronaldo in those games for basically in an entire decade, but that’s beside the point.

In general, my problem with rating players on Champions League knockouts is not only that not only do these games represent only a very small percentage of games in a season (10%), but more importantly, they are often decided by factors outside of the control of a single player. Ramos stepping up and scoring CL final goals in 2014 and 2016. The referees giving Madrid some very favourable decisions during Zidane’s first stint.

In general, although cup competitions can be very entertaining, they are a very flawed method to judge a player by. As a Juve fan, you should be more aware than anyone else of how much luck and random factors can influence cup competitions.

When I rate players, I rate them based on a combination:

1. natural ability
2. relentless consistency at league level
3. big game performances

Messi wins (1) and (2), even if I concede that Ronaldo wins (3), it wouldn’t make him the better player in my eyes because my criteria is fundamentally different from yours.

You say argentina has bad balance, yet their defense is what got them for in tournaments for half a decade. Despite the insane firepower upfront. Where was Ronaldo's superstars upfront? Nani was the best he had for a while (until B. Silva recently). On the other side messi was surrounded by scorers like Higuain or Aguero, and creators like di Maria. There is no question who had the better team, and who was among the favorites at every tournament since 2006.

You say Portugal is good enough to beat Uruguay, if Ronaldo shows up, and that's precisely it. They need Ronaldo to step up even against the 2nd tier teams, and you think that team should be winning tournaments where there isn't even a return leg, one off game and you're out. Think before you write. I never compared them to greece, learn to read Neddy.

Argentina lost to Germany as the overwhelming favorites in 2010. Germany was a team of rookies, Neuer made the starting spot only after Adler (probably never heard of him?) got hurt and Enke died. Same as Khedira, who wasn't even called up before Ballack got hurt. Mertesacker and Arne Friedrich (know him?) In defense, LB Boateng... Bench a bunch of BL no names. So you make a classic Neddy mistake again as usual, you just read the names of players or look at the name of the team and think these players and teams have the same level any year you pick them. And 4-0 was embarrassing, messi as the undisputed best player showed absolutely nothing that world cup.

You say Portugal went out to USA, but they drew that game and conceded twice after taking the lead. They went out due to the big loss to Germany the previous game. Same Germany that played a friendly in the last round vs USA and let their boy klinsmann progress. You count losses and name the teams they lost to . One plays for Argentina, the other for Portugal, get that in your head already and stop finding excuses for Messi because Ronaldo couldn't do the same with a worse team.

You mean the better team won more often in h2h matchups, who would have thought. barcelona without messi was dismantling Madrid without Ronaldo at points, they were just better until Neymar left and Iniesta declined.

Funny how you name things that should normally be arguments against Ronaldo in your CL observation, but don't name a single for Messi even though there are more things to name for him. And then you say you don't have an agenda. Can you name a single barcelona CL win where refs didn't give them a push when things didn't go well? 2009? 2011? 2015?

We all understand the difficulty of cup competition, but if you get dismantled by Roma and at the same time, dismantle teams that were on par or better than that years Roma in the domestic cup, then what is that? Luck, fluke? They don't just go out of the CL, they get humiliated year after year since maybe Atletico 2016. Look at Juves exits in recent years, even if we go out to inferior teams it's close, small details decide. Not saying we weren't bad but we never got trashed 3-0 to a Roma level team to go out in a CL tie. Or even go out with a large margin.

Wow so you make up arbitrary things to rate players and decide who's better based on that. Good for you I guess.

 

[Nedved96]

@zizinho

1. The fact that Argentina looked better than Germany on paper in 2010 is irrelevant because Maradona is the worst coach in football history. Left Zanetti and Cambiasso at home only to play players out of position, like Otamendi at right back and Lavezzi in central midfield. Messi lost to a much better balanced team in 2010, and a better team period in 2014 and 2018.

2. Uruguay is inferior to Portugal, Ronaldo did not step up in that game, and they lost. Portugal is better than USA, and yet USA finished ahead of them in that group. Messi’s World Cup career is better than Ronaldo for the simple fact that Messi usually gets knocked out of World Cups with better performances than Ronaldo does, and against better teams.

3. Madrid have had a better midfield than Barcelona ever since 2013, which is around the time when Xavi declined and Modric became the best central midfielder in the world. Despite that, Messi regularly won his H2H games against Ronaldo even when Barcelona was not creating as many chances as Madrid. The 2-3 in 2016/17 and the 0-3 in 2017/18 are perfect examples of that.

4. Sergio Ramos has always been a better defender and leader than Gerard Pique. Casemiro is also a lot more athletic and better defensively than Busquets. That is why Madrid have never been humiliated on a regular basis against elite opponents in the Champions League like Barcelona have post-2017. In general, it’s nonsensical to blame Messi for the defensive collapses of Barcelona when he’s a freaking attacker.

5. You really want to push the idea that teams win leagues but individuals win tournaments. Sadly that idea is completely baseless and you have zero evidence to support it.

 

[zizinho]

@zizinho

1. The fact that Argentina looked better than Germany on paper in 2010 is irrelevant because Maradona is the worst coach in football history. Left Zanetti and Cambiasso at home only to play players out of position, like Otamendi at right back and Lavezzi in central midfield. Messi lost to a much better balanced team in 2010, and a better team period in 2014 and 2018.

2. Uruguay is inferior to Portugal, Ronaldo did not step up in that game, and they lost. Portugal is better than USA, and yet USA finished ahead of them in that group. Messi’s World Cup career is better than Ronaldo for the simple fact that Messi usually gets knocked out of World Cups with better performances than Ronaldo does, and against better teams.

3. Madrid have had a better midfield than Barcelona ever since 2013, which is around the time when Xavi declined and Modric became the best central midfielder in the world. Despite that, Messi regularly won his H2H games against Ronaldo even when Barcelona was not creating as many chances as Madrid. The 2-3 in 2016/17 and the 0-3 in 2017/18 are perfect examples of that.

4. Sergio Ramos has always been a better defender and leader than Gerard Pique. Casemiro is also a lot more athletic and better defensively than Busquets. That is why Madrid have never been humiliated on a regular basis against elite opponents in the Champions League like Barcelona have post-2017. In general, it’s nonsensical to blame Messi for the defensive collapses of Barcelona when he’s a freaking attacker.

5. You really want to push the idea that teams win leagues but individuals win tournaments. Sadly that idea is completely baseless and you have zero evidence to support it.

I doubt you watched 2010 world cup tbh. Sorry if I'm wrong. Argentina went into the tournament as favorites and Germany was not mentioned as one of them. Even before the game Argies were favorites. Messis team lost while his barca teammates went on to win WC. Not a great image for him. And I love how you excuse him for having a bad coach, but you're quick to bash Ronaldo for the Porto exit...

Uruguay is inferior in what way? Paper? Play? Elaborate, since you claim Germany and France were better than Argentina. Can't have it both ways Neddy

LOL I won't even count that. Delusion or just plain ignorance. I don't know if I should take you seriously anymore tbh. And stop taking random results as somehow they support your silly claim. I say barca was the better team up until the last 2 years of Ronaldo's tenure there, you say Madrid has better midfield because Xavi suddenly declines and Modric suddenly becomes best in the world. Just concede your wrong instead if stubbornly digging further.

Again, complete arbitrary and out of context comparison of random players. What's the point? Are you saying Madrid was better than barcelona those years? Or you're afraid to say so you're just beating around the bush. The lengths you'd go for your idol lol.
Edit: didn't read that part until the end. I'm not blaming messi for them conceding so many, but they were never winning those years on defensive stability. Their forte is outscoring their opponent, which they usually do at Camp Nou, so why can't they score atleast once when the teams open up more in the return leg? Roma? Liverpool? Where was he? The goat creator/scorer according to you

I'm not pushing that idea, you're just lost at this point.

 

[Nedved96]

@zizinho

Germany 2010 was inferior to Argentina 2010 on paper but superior as a team because as I explained, Maradona was the worst coach of all time. He left Zanetti and Cambiasso at home for god sakes.

You overrate Barcelona’s players and underate Real Madrid’s players if you think that Barcelona had better teams. If we exclude Messi and Ronaldo themselves and compare the threepeat team to Guardiola’s Barcelona, you end up with this:

Navas > Valdes
Carvajal < Dani Alves
Ramos > Pique
Varane > Mascherano
Marcelo > Abidal
Casemiro > Busquets
Modric = Xavi
Kroos < Iniesta
Bale > Pedro
Benzema > Villa

Oh, and Madrid had a better bench.

Also, here is Messi vs Liverpool at Anfield


Numerous quality chances created for Suarez, Coutinho, and Jordi Alba. He didn’t disappear against Liverpool. He was phenomenal in both legs. His teammates and defence let him down.

That is precisely why judging individual players by team achievements and trophies is inherently stupid. Football is 11 vs 11.

 

[zizinho]

@zizinho

Germany 2010 was inferior to Argentina 2010 on paper but superior as a team because as I explained, Maradona was the worst coach of all time. He left Zanetti and Cambiasso at home for god sakes.

You overrate Barcelona’s players and underate Real Madrid’s players if you think that Barcelona had better teams. If we exclude Messi and Ronaldo themselves and compare the threepeat team to Guardiola’s Barcelona, you end up with this:

Navas > Valdes
Carvajal < Dani Alves
Ramos > Pique
Varane > Mascherano
Marcelo > Abidal
Casemiro > Busquets
Modric = Xavi
Kroos < Iniesta
Bale > Pedro
Benzema > Villa

Oh, and Madrid had a better bench.

Also, here is Messi vs Liverpool at Anfield


Numerous quality chances created for Suarez, Coutinho, and Jordi Alba. He didn’t disappear against Liverpool. He was phenomenal in both legs. His teammates and defence let him down.

That is precisely why judging individual players by team achievements and trophies is inherently stupid. Football is 11 vs 11.

Wait, you are comparing to Guardiolas barcelona? Where on earth is Puyol, easily the best CB in that bunch? Benzema > Villa? Modric = Xavi? Casemiro > Busquets? Please my man, pm me the number of your delivery guy. I never smoked but whatever youre having must be top notch.

Even without Zanetti amd Cambiasso they were favorites. They had Aguero and Milito coming off the bench, that team was full of attacking talent. And the very next summer, with those 2 and a reak coach, they lost to Uruguay in the Copa America, at home. So thats hardly a excuse for being humiliated and not even scoring once despite so many weapons upfront.

You watched that video and then went on and wrote numerous chances. Come on Neddy, why do you waste my time. There is one good chance in the whole video, when Suarez didnt time his run perfectly before messi makes the pass, so he lost his momentum. The 2nd best chance has messi actually. So whats the point of that video? He let them down as much as they have him.

 

[Nedved96]

I admit defeat to @zizinho's superior intelligence

 

[Afghan_juventus]

Messi at his best is superior to Ronaldo at his best, this is what sets the two apart in my opinion. Now that's not a dig at Ronaldo, he is undoubtedly a top 5 player of all time and when taking into account their entire careers, attributes and clutchness, there are arguments to be made in Ronaldo's favor. However, imo Ronaldo just hasn't produced a season at the same level as Messi 2011 or 2015. Ronaldo of 2008 and 2012 are close, but there is still a visible gap.

 

[suligodsilla]

Ronaldo won with Portugal, Messi didn't win anything for Argentina.

 

[Afghan_juventus]

Ronaldo won with Portugal, Messi didn't win anything for Argentina.

That's true. But it's worth taking into account that Messi failed in multiple finals, whereas Ronaldo's Portugal won against France without him even on the pitch. Though even with that in mind I'd say Ronaldo has had the superior international career. Performances such as his double vs Holland and his hattrick vs Spain sets him apart from Messi on the international stage. But imo it's not enough to surpass Messi wider sense.

 

[Post Ironic]

Messi has made a career of beating up on minnows.

Ronaldo has made a career of dominating the biggest stage. Ronaldo holds the all-time record for CL goals and CL assists.

Even more important in CL knockout matches:

Ronaldo - 67 goals - 15 assists

Messi - 49 goals - 12 assists

It’s even worse for Messi if you look at QFs onward where you are guaranteed to be playing tough teams, unlike Rof16 where you can get lucky and face minnows.

In CL quarters, semis, finals:

Ronaldo - 42 goals - 6 assists

Messi - 20 goals - 6 assists

That last one is kind of embarrassing for baby goat Messi. Makes him look like a shrinking violet compared to Ronaldo in the big matches.

@zizinho

 

[rainhard]

This is easy

Find 10 vs 10 amateur that have similar ability
Put Messi and CR7 in each team, the best will win this game easily
and they can switch side in other match

Messi will win each match because he can drive a team and made his amateur teammates play like professional, while CR7 need Luka Modric of all world to give him easy pass and he cannot find that in his team

 

[suligodsilla]

All the facts speak for Ronaldo

 

[zizinho]

Messi has made a career of beating up on minnows.

Ronaldo has made a career of dominating the biggest stage. Ronaldo holds the all-time record for CL goals and CL assists.

Even more important in CL knockout matches:

Ronaldo - 67 goals - 15 assists

Messi - 49 goals - 12 assists

It’s even worse for Messi if you look at QFs onward where you are guaranteed to be playing tough teams, unlike Rof16 where you can get lucky and face minnows.

In CL quarters, semis, finals:

Ronaldo - 42 goals - 6 assists

Messi - 20 goals - 6 assists

That last one is kind of embarrassing for baby goat Messi. Makes him look like a shrinking violet compared to Ronaldo in the big matches.

@zizinho

True, Ronaldo makes him look average in comparison. And It becomes too embarrassing for Messi if you look at away games only as well. Pool, Roma, Juve, Atletico x2, Bayern, Chelsea x2, inter. He barely ever scores

 

[james95]

@zizinho

Germany 2010 was inferior to Argentina 2010 on paper but superior as a team because as I explained, Maradona was the worst coach of all time. He left Zanetti and Cambiasso at home for god sakes.

You overrate Barcelona’s players and underate Real Madrid’s players if you think that Barcelona had better teams. If we exclude Messi and Ronaldo themselves and compare the threepeat team to Guardiola’s Barcelona, you end up with this:

Navas > Valdes
Carvajal < Dani Alves
Ramos > Pique
Varane > Mascherano
Marcelo > Abidal
Casemiro > Busquets
Modric = Xavi
Kroos < Iniesta
Bale > Pedro
Benzema > Villa

Oh, and Madrid had a better bench.

Also, here is Messi vs Liverpool at Anfield


Numerous quality chances created for Suarez, Coutinho, and Jordi Alba. He didn’t disappear against Liverpool. He was phenomenal in both legs. His teammates and defence let him down.

That is precisely why judging individual players by team achievements and trophies is inherently stupid. Football is 11 vs 11.

Peak Casemiro isn't better than peak Busquets, that's just nonsense. Also, Benzema of the 3-peat years wasn't better than 2010/11 Villa who carried Spain upfront to their World Cup triumph. Furthermore, Mascherano and Varane is a lot closer than you think. The latter is certainly more error prone.

 

[zizinho]

Peak Casemiro isn't better than peak Busquets, that's just nonsense. Also, Benzema of the 3-peat years wasn't better than 2010/11 Villa who carried Spain upfront to their World Cup triumph. Furthermore, Mascherano and Varane is a lot closer than you think. The latter is certainly more error prone.

Mascherano is a GOAT tier DM, just ask @Zacheryah

But Puyol has to be there

 

[Nedved96]

But Puyol has to be there

Puyol declined badly after the 2010 World Cup, mainly because of injuries.

He summoned all his energy into that bullet header against Germany, and then his body fell apart after that.

 

[Elvin]

This is easy

Find 10 vs 10 amateur that have similar ability
Put Messi and CR7 in each team, the best will win this game easily
and they can switch side in other match

Messi will win each match because he can drive a team and made his amateur teammates play like professional, while CR7 need Luka Modric of all world to give him easy pass and he cannot find that in his team

Umm which of Messi's teammates have ever been as average as Ronaldo's at Juve?

Messi is a comfort zone pussy.

 

[Siamak]

Messi at his best is superior to Ronaldo at his best, this is what sets the two apart in my opinion. Now that's not a dig at Ronaldo, he is undoubtedly a top 5 player of all time and when taking into account their entire careers, attributes and clutchness, there are arguments to be made in Ronaldo's favor. However, imo Ronaldo just hasn't produced a season at the same level as Messi 2011 or 2015. Ronaldo of 2008 and 2012 are close, but there is still a visible gap.

bayern and roma say thanks to messi for running and for being a ghost

 

[Zacheryah]

Peak Casemiro isn't better than peak Busquets, that's just nonsense. Also, Benzema of the 3-peat years wasn't better than 2010/11 Villa who carried Spain upfront to their World Cup triumph. Furthermore, Mascherano and Varane is a lot closer than you think. The latter is certainly more error prone.

Please report to the mental asylum for the utter complete lack of cognifive ability, basic thinking and judgement.


Jesus christ i've seen more shit in a broken toilet at a spicy mexican restaurant than in that phrase