Israeli-Palestinian conflict (81 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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The bold part is my point exactly, as long as you have that mentality you will never have peace imo. Unless you kill off all arabs/muslims.
It's not their or your terms. It's terms where you lose some to win some. I also think this is peak israel power and influence, i see it declining from here on out, so id say this is the best time to make something happen. American support won't last forever. The holiness of the place and the cause will.
As for propaganda and subsidies, you think an arab or muslim needs propaganda to know mort goldstein doesnt belong or have any claim to an inch in palestine? And the arab leaders, you think they support the palestinian cause because of illusions of grandeur or even for noble causes? Nah it is to placate a population who wants nothing but to be at your door step if only to die at your hands. They are actually doing you a favor. All saddam had to do to get hero status in the arab world was to launch useless scud missiles your way. Sorry to say my friend but you don't get it, you will never live at peace with the sword in that region. Make concessions, Palestinians want to have normal lives. Give them some dignity, Starbucks, mcdonalds, and 5g. And all will be well.
It's not their or your terms. It's terms where you lose some to win some. I also think this is peak israel power and influence, i see it declining from here on out, so id say this is the best time to make something happen. American support won't last forever. The holiness of the place and the cause will.
As for propaganda and subsidies, you think an arab or muslim needs propaganda to know mort goldstein doesnt belong or have any claim to an inch in palestine? And the arab leaders, you think they support the palestinian cause because of illusions of grandeur or even for noble causes? Nah it is to placate a population who wants nothing but to be at your door step if only to die at your hands. They are actually doing you a favor. All saddam had to do to get hero status in the arab world was to launch useless scud missiles your way. Sorry to say my friend but you don't get it, you will never live at peace with the sword in that region. Make concessions, Palestinians want to have normal lives. Give them some dignity, Starbucks, mcdonalds, and 5g. And all will be well.
I think I get you more then you think.
All peace offers sent thier way were very steep compormises. Rabin was assisted for compromising too much. Barak's camp david and Ollmert's offer in 2008 were all comprises.
They refused any and all deals. For every offer of peace they have answered with an intifada.
We never asked for the moon, they always did.
For you propaganda part of your post, I honestly can't see how that has anything to do with what I wrote.
The bold part shows that you are the one not getting it. Normal palestinians have no say here, thier leadership, both Hamas and the PLO don't represent their best interest and they don't care about macdonalds and the people quality of life.
They are cowerds, unwilling to compromise and make the necessary sacrifices for peace.
All peace offers sent thier way were very steep compormises. Rabin was assisted for compromising too much. Barak's camp david and Ollmert's offer in 2008 were all comprises.
They refused any and all deals. For every offer of peace they have answered with an intifada.
We never asked for the moon, they always did.
For you propaganda part of your post, I honestly can't see how that has anything to do with what I wrote.
The bold part shows that you are the one not getting it. Normal palestinians have no say here, thier leadership, both Hamas and the PLO don't represent their best interest and they don't care about macdonalds and the people quality of life.
They are cowerds, unwilling to compromise and make the necessary sacrifices for peace.
No one needs any propaganda to know millions of jews who dont belong in the area were jettisoned there with the help of western power. So you are not and you were never the victim in this story. You are not the one being dehumanized, your country is doing the dehumanizing. Sure the arabs lost, that means you are the conqueror, you can't be the conqueror and the victim.
So tell me whats the plan? after 80 years of failing to break their spirit with violence, you think you gonna get em this time? You think you will solve the problem by killing/expulsing them all?
So tell me whats the plan? after 80 years of failing to break their spirit with violence, you think you gonna get em this time? You think you will solve the problem by killing/expulsing them all?
)
I agree with most of this, but that would require the Palestinians to negotiate in good faith. And accept the sort of offers they were given in the ‘90s and ‘00s. They haven’t shown any inclination to do so, if anything their rhetoric has hardened since then (which suits the right wing hawks in Israel just fine). The erasure of the Israeli state as Hamas and others have as their goal is never going to happen, so they have to accept a two state solution too. Until that happens, diplomacy is dead.
In reality, the best option is Jordan annexing the West Bank and Egypt annexing Gaza. Won’t happen, because no one wants to deal with such radicalized populations and all the issues this would come with, but it’s the best solution for eventual stability in the region. The current West Bank + Gaza Palestinian state will be a mess long into the future, even if they get their sovereignty imo.
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I don’t think this is what he’s saying though, or what I linked is saying. There is no return to UN partition plan borders. It’s no longer feasible. There’s no erasure of the state of Israel and a return of the entire region as Arab Palestine. The options for any sort of peace are to accept the 95-100% of the West Bank plus entirety of Gaza as a Palestinian sovereign nation or to become part of Jordan and Egypt. There really is no other solution here that doesn’t involve the conquest and extermination of either Palestine or Israel.
The Arab world needs to stop mollycoddling the Palestinians and pressure them into accepting the best terms that they shall be offered.
And Israel needs to step up and make that offer over and over again until it’s accepted, because the pressure on the Arab world to take it and make peace will eventually build and force it.
In reality, the best option is Jordan annexing the West Bank and Egypt annexing Gaza. Won’t happen, because no one wants to deal with such radicalized populations and all the issues this would come with, but it’s the best solution for eventual stability in the region. The current West Bank + Gaza Palestinian state will be a mess long into the future, even if they get their sovereignty imo.
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I don’t think this is what he’s saying though, or what I linked is saying. There is no return to UN partition plan borders. It’s no longer feasible. There’s no erasure of the state of Israel and a return of the entire region as Arab Palestine. The options for any sort of peace are to accept the 95-100% of the West Bank plus entirety of Gaza as a Palestinian sovereign nation or to become part of Jordan and Egypt. There really is no other solution here that doesn’t involve the conquest and extermination of either Palestine or Israel.
The Arab world needs to stop mollycoddling the Palestinians and pressure them into accepting the best terms that they shall be offered.
And Israel needs to step up and make that offer over and over again until it’s accepted, because the pressure on the Arab world to take it and make peace will eventually build and force it.
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Who said israel needs to be erased off the map? If a fair deal is proposed the arab states will pressure palis to take it, been saying that since the beginning.
But as someone who knows about this a little more than you, with all due respect, 2 points to consider:
-It's silly and naive to think israel wants peace or 2 state solution at all
-you and tomice underestimate how stubborn the other side is and how much this means to arabs and muslims. Israel will NEVER win this by the sword.
But they are the only side who has made serious overtures and offers towards a 2 state solution in the past 30 years. I agree that currently Israel is about as far away from even offering that as they have ever been and eventually that will bite them. Much worse than October 7th.
And no, I’m not underestimating that, nor am I suggesting Israel can or will win this by the sword going forward. That is the reason for my second response to you above. The fact Israel hasn’t made a real peace offer/2 state offer since the 00s is a huge problem and only making things worse in conjunction with the aggressive settling in the West Bank. They need to be continually offering that ~95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and a connection of some sort between the two. Pursuing that aggressively until the Arab world forces Palestine to accept.
Ideally they would negotiate a ceasefire now in return for all hostages, and make this offer immediately… but that won’t happen and things are just going to get more inflamed and awful for everyone involved.
And no, I’m not underestimating that, nor am I suggesting Israel can or will win this by the sword going forward. That is the reason for my second response to you above. The fact Israel hasn’t made a real peace offer/2 state offer since the 00s is a huge problem and only making things worse in conjunction with the aggressive settling in the West Bank. They need to be continually offering that ~95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and a connection of some sort between the two. Pursuing that aggressively until the Arab world forces Palestine to accept.
Ideally they would negotiate a ceasefire now in return for all hostages, and make this offer immediately… but that won’t happen and things are just going to get more inflamed and awful for everyone involved.
Arabs would take that if you include eastern Jerusalem, and a demilitarized golan heights. But even what you suggest above will never be offered by israel. They seem to believe they can impose their will through force, they cant and wont. Best case scenario they lose, worst case scenario they drag the whole world into WW3.
It's your version of the truth, with all due respect. If your starting point is that Israel doesn't want peace then that explain the rest of your narrative. We will not agree on that.
Fact is they were offered fair peace offers several times and rejected them. How long will you ask a girl out and get rejected until you give up?
I'm resigned to the fact this conflict might never end. I'm not underestimate them, if anything they are underestimating us and that is part of the reason they refuse to compromise. They belive they will outlast us and wear us down, they think we lack the fortitude and will run back to Europe someday.
I suggest watching all 3 parts
Barak's camp david offer and Ollmert's offer both included eastern Jerusalem and more then 95% of the west bank and gaza.
Golan heights is a Syrian issue not a palestinian one and we will never give it back. It is the most important strategic region in the area, this will always be off the table and therefor an unrealistic ask.
Fact is they were offered fair peace offers several times and rejected them. How long will you ask a girl out and get rejected until you give up?
I'm resigned to the fact this conflict might never end. I'm not underestimate them, if anything they are underestimating us and that is part of the reason they refuse to compromise. They belive they will outlast us and wear us down, they think we lack the fortitude and will run back to Europe someday.
I suggest watching all 3 parts
Barak's camp david offer and Ollmert's offer both included eastern Jerusalem and more then 95% of the west bank and gaza.
Golan heights is a Syrian issue not a palestinian one and we will never give it back. It is the most important strategic region in the area, this will always be off the table and therefor an unrealistic ask.
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People will not appreciate me saying this, but in the long run Israel will either have to adapt or it will disappear.
It's a very small country with a very small population. It has soaked up resources from foreign nations for decades now, but it is quickly becoming quite impopular.
And popularity matters.
Not because countries will switch allegiance. They won't. But because they won't support Israel as much as they once did. And without that support it is an island in an entirely hostile region. No country survives that in the long run.
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It's a very small country with a very small population. It has soaked up resources from foreign nations for decades now, but it is quickly becoming quite impopular.
And popularity matters.
Not because countries will switch allegiance. They won't. But because they won't support Israel as much as they once did. And without that support it is an island in an entirely hostile region. No country survives that in the long run.
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Dude, come on.
Earlier you were saying how Israel didn't need anyone. You wouldn't even be able to charge your phone if it weren't for other countries.
Look at what you need in arms and artillery, look at what you need in manpower, look at how much support you need from other countries... Compared to the size that you are, you are draining so much energy from everyone.
But be my guest and refuse those 14 billion Biden wants to send your way.
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Earlier you were saying how Israel didn't need anyone. You wouldn't even be able to charge your phone if it weren't for other countries.
Look at what you need in arms and artillery, look at what you need in manpower, look at how much support you need from other countries... Compared to the size that you are, you are draining so much energy from everyone.
But be my guest and refuse those 14 billion Biden wants to send your way.
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