You can say it, it of course is your right to believe that but the idea of a religious states is so retarded you can see how people don't associate it with atheism 
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Israeli-Palestinian conflict (66 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
- Start date
Of course. But that was never the argument. Besides, Islam is a religion that has never known a division between state and religion. So if a muslim is going to argue that an atheist has to feel that way because the idea of a religious state should be considered retarded... we have a problem.
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- So you ignore the fact that Palestinians should have a state in their homeland more or less but you mention how important it is to have a Jewish state?
- How on earth Palestinians don't have any particular right to their land? Please answer this question without using your zic zac style of debate.
- How on earth Palestinians don't have any particular right to their land? Please answer this question without using your zic zac style of debate.
Reb, I remembered how you said many times that Europe should take back the Jews from Israel. Since something didn't click there I did my own research, so please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this true:
1. It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property. By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.
2. In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration. The population of the area at that time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11% of the population
3. Holocaust survivors:
With the exception of 10,000–15,000 who chose to make their homes in Germany after the war, the vast majority of the Jewish DPs (from Displacement person camps) ultimately left the camps and settled elsewhere. About 136,000 settled in Israel, 80,000 in the United States, and sizeable numbers also in Canada and South Africa.
4. Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by 12%.Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate.
5. Some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel.
6. About 35% of all Israeli Jews are (first or second generation) descended from European Jews.
So, some 65% of today's Jewish population of Israel consists of Jews who didn't come from Europe. Am I right?
If the other 35% did come from Europe, we need to see where from Europe did they come.
It's hard to find accurate statistics so I had to use some other ways.
For example, I expected most of the politicians to originate from those European Jews, and I was right. A quick view of the Israeli prime ministers and where did they come from:
1. David Ben-Gurion- born in Płońsk - Russian Empire, today in Poland
2. Moshe Sharett- born Kherson, Russian Empire, today in Ukraine
3. Levi Eshkol- born in Oratov, Russian Empire, today in Ukraine
4. Yigal Allon- born in Kfar Tavor, Palestine, now Israel
5. Golda Meir - born in Kiev, Russian Empire, now Ukraine
6. Yitzhak Rabin - born in Jerusalem, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
7. Menachem Begin - born in Brest, Russian Empire, now Belarus
8. Shimon Peres - born in Wiszniewo, Belarus
9. Yitzhak Shamir - born in Ruzhinoy, Russian Empire, now Belarus
10. Benjamin Netanyahu - born in Tel Aviv, Israel (family came from Poland)
11. Ehud Barak- born in Mishmar HaSharon, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
12. Ariel Sharon- born in Kfar Malal, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
13. Ehud Olmert- born in Binyamina, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel.
So, now we get a picture where even from those 35% European Jews, the big majority are from the ex-USSR and a very small number is from the EU or Balkans.
If this gives some impression it's that the majority of those who came from Europe were actually from Belarus, Ukraine and Russia.
So I wonder what do you mean when you say that Europe should take the Israelis back?
1. It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property. By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.
2. In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration. The population of the area at that time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11% of the population
3. Holocaust survivors:
With the exception of 10,000–15,000 who chose to make their homes in Germany after the war, the vast majority of the Jewish DPs (from Displacement person camps) ultimately left the camps and settled elsewhere. About 136,000 settled in Israel, 80,000 in the United States, and sizeable numbers also in Canada and South Africa.
4. Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by 12%.Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate.
5. Some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel.
6. About 35% of all Israeli Jews are (first or second generation) descended from European Jews.
So, some 65% of today's Jewish population of Israel consists of Jews who didn't come from Europe. Am I right?
If the other 35% did come from Europe, we need to see where from Europe did they come.
It's hard to find accurate statistics so I had to use some other ways.
For example, I expected most of the politicians to originate from those European Jews, and I was right. A quick view of the Israeli prime ministers and where did they come from:
1. David Ben-Gurion- born in Płońsk - Russian Empire, today in Poland
2. Moshe Sharett- born Kherson, Russian Empire, today in Ukraine
3. Levi Eshkol- born in Oratov, Russian Empire, today in Ukraine
4. Yigal Allon- born in Kfar Tavor, Palestine, now Israel
5. Golda Meir - born in Kiev, Russian Empire, now Ukraine
6. Yitzhak Rabin - born in Jerusalem, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
7. Menachem Begin - born in Brest, Russian Empire, now Belarus
8. Shimon Peres - born in Wiszniewo, Belarus
9. Yitzhak Shamir - born in Ruzhinoy, Russian Empire, now Belarus
10. Benjamin Netanyahu - born in Tel Aviv, Israel (family came from Poland)
11. Ehud Barak- born in Mishmar HaSharon, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
12. Ariel Sharon- born in Kfar Malal, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel
13. Ehud Olmert- born in Binyamina, British Mandate of Palestine, now Israel.
So, now we get a picture where even from those 35% European Jews, the big majority are from the ex-USSR and a very small number is from the EU or Balkans.
If this gives some impression it's that the majority of those who came from Europe were actually from Belarus, Ukraine and Russia.
So I wonder what do you mean when you say that Europe should take the Israelis back?
It's a complex situation, the Palestinians that are there NOW are not the same as the original inhabitants of the land in terms of culture and religion, they are recently 'culturally arabised'. In factual terms Israelites predate modern Palestinians, but the genetic inhabitants of the land are no Jewish and are more similar to Palestinians than any other sub arabian group.
Non jews lived there 2500 years ago, yes indeed, but they aren't really the same as the Palestinians today in the same way that my people aren't Celts but a mixture of a few different genetic groupings.
In summary: The process of human societal evolution makes a 'We were here first' argument irrelevant. Statewise Israel was there first, but that's because of British colonialism and the post WW1-WW2 waves of nationalism.
In one Sentence:Both sides have their homes in the region, both deserve to live there.
Non jews lived there 2500 years ago, yes indeed, but they aren't really the same as the Palestinians today in the same way that my people aren't Celts but a mixture of a few different genetic groupings.
In summary: The process of human societal evolution makes a 'We were here first' argument irrelevant. Statewise Israel was there first, but that's because of British colonialism and the post WW1-WW2 waves of nationalism.
In one Sentence:Both sides have their homes in the region, both deserve to live there.
Thanks, Alen...
You seem making good efforts in that post.
Anyway, you know that there are two main groups between Jews in Israel. These are Ashkenazi and Safardim.
Those Ashkenazi Zionists are the most extremist ones. They came from Europe including USSR countries during the last centuries. All the leaders of Israel in Israel since 1948 are Ashkenazi Jews. The main other components of the Israeli population are Safardim Jews, Russian Christians and the Flasha Ethiopians.
When you observe the impact of Ashkenazi jews in Israel, you find that they control everything there. They were the reason for gathering all the other people of Israel in that land regardless if they are Jewish or Christians or atheists just to defeat the Arab majority.
When I said take Jews back to Europe, I mean the Ashkenazi ones. They are the most dangerous.
I know they are less than half of the population, but the whole society is built around them, so if they are sent back to where they came from, the main pillar of that country will fall, and all the others will either leave too or live peacefully with Palestinians because simply those Safardim Jews lived with Muslims peacefully for centuries since the deportation from Spain.
That is my take on this topic.
You seem making good efforts in that post.
Anyway, you know that there are two main groups between Jews in Israel. These are Ashkenazi and Safardim.
Those Ashkenazi Zionists are the most extremist ones. They came from Europe including USSR countries during the last centuries. All the leaders of Israel in Israel since 1948 are Ashkenazi Jews. The main other components of the Israeli population are Safardim Jews, Russian Christians and the Flasha Ethiopians.
When you observe the impact of Ashkenazi jews in Israel, you find that they control everything there. They were the reason for gathering all the other people of Israel in that land regardless if they are Jewish or Christians or atheists just to defeat the Arab majority.
When I said take Jews back to Europe, I mean the Ashkenazi ones. They are the most dangerous.
I know they are less than half of the population, but the whole society is built around them, so if they are sent back to where they came from, the main pillar of that country will fall, and all the others will either leave too or live peacefully with Palestinians because simply those Safardim Jews lived with Muslims peacefully for centuries since the deportation from Spain.
That is my take on this topic.
