Israeli-Palestinian conflict (42 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,510
I'm wasting yours, not ours. I lashed out against the conspiracy theory because it was stupid. And I claimed that most Americans didn't get a proper education, but also stated that some got a very good one. Listen in the future, Andy and don't think in black and white.

Also, as you are really fascinated with hypocrisy I'd like you to think about this:

When I was four, I didn't like girls. But since I would be a hypocrite to change an opinion over time, I would have to resort to sodomy in your eyes. It would be wrong of me to fuck a girl, right?
If it didn't feel right, then yes, it would be wrong.

Your sexual frustrations are not of my concern. You'll sort them out through time, Andries.
 

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Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
Somebody will come later to say that video was a part of the propaganda against innocent Israelis.
or maybe Hamas was using the zoo to launch attacks from....like they havent done that at schools or hospitals before

Ohh Gosh, those Israelis are just so nice. Such great people. :seven:
I cant remember the last time a suicide bomber made an announcement of intention at a cafe or mall in Israel

When did Hamas blow a hotel, Mr. "I know nothing but I have to say something"?
funny how anoyone close to being neutral in this thread gets bashed and intimidated...and the only Israeli in the forum "conveniently" gets banned

Totally right.

Greg doesn't know what happened in 30/3/1976 inside Israel when Arabs there were protesting capturing their lands by demonstartions. And by the way, those who were killed at that day were carrying Israeli nationality.
shall we bring up the Munich '72 Olympics where innocent Israeli athletes were murdered ??
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,334
or maybe Hamas was using the zoo to launch attacks from....like they havent done that at schools or hospitals before



I cant remember the last time a suicide bomber made an announcement of intention at a cafe or mall in Israel



funny how anoyone close to being neutral in this thread gets bashed and intimidated...and the only Israeli in the forum "conveniently" gets banned



shall we bring up the Munich '72 Olympics where innocent Israeli athletes were murdered ??
lets at least be honest, you re not neutral, and i have yet to see any of the mods show skewed bias to one side or the other so the banned israeli most likely deserved it
 
OP

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #4,350
    What's Erdogan's hang-up with the Palestinians?


    What moved Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to take up the mantle as Israel's leading critic in the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead? Is this a matter of a personal affront, in that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who visited Ankara just days before the operation, did not warn the Turks of what was to come?

    Israel's former ambassador to Ankara, Zvi Elpeleg, once cautioned that Turkey is about as sensitive about the Palestinian issue as it is about the Armenian issue. Millions of people in Turkey take no interest in what is happening beyond their borders, with one exception: Palestine.

    Turkish concerns for the Palestinians are deeply rooted. Their misery, say the Turks, began during the Ottoman era of sovereignty in Palestine. The Ottomans allowed the start of Jewish settlement in the country. The Ottomans also viewed the Palestinians as some of their most loyal subjects. They enlisted in the imperial army, fought in combat, became high-ranking officers, received citations of bravery from the sultan, married Turkish women, and, most importantly, hoped to keep the Ottoman Empire intact so they could put into practice Arab nationalism under its umbrella.

    During the recent crisis in Gaza, the Turkish press often focused on the passivity of the Arab regimes in light of the events, while contrasting it with Turkey's spirited efforts. "Does the apathy of the Arab regimes stem from the fact that we, the Ottoman Turks, ruled Palestine for a longer period of time than the Arabs?" asked one Turkish newspaper.

    The start of the crisis looked promising from Turkey's standpoint because in the last year it has been prominent as a go-between for Israel and Syria. Gaza is regarded as naturally suited for Turkish mediation, given that Egypt has been strongly criticized by Hamas. "Neo-Ottomanism" and "the Golden Age," Turkish newspapers enthused about the country's elevated standing. But then something ruined the picture and the blame fell on Israel. Syria announced the suspension of negotiations with Israel, adding further to Erdogan's insult in the wake of Olmert's visit. "I am a descendant of the Ottoman Empire that granted refuge to your forefathers who were expelled from Spain; when you suffered we stood by your side," he protested. The task of mediation was ultimately won by Egypt, not Turkey, which only added to the insult.

    From Israel's vantage point, the greatest danger is pushing Turkey into the arms of the "reverse periphery alliance" with Iran. In the 1950s and '60s, our region featured a mysterious alliance of actors who shared the common denominator of being non-Arabs and hostility toward Moscow. Over time, this group included Turkey, Iran, Israel, Ethiopia, the Kurds in Iraq, the Christians in Lebanon and the Christians in Sudan. It would be best if we could avoid the formation of a new alliance with Turkey and Iran as the central figures, whose uniting factor would be hostility toward Israel. Relations between Ankara and Tehran are as good as ever, trade between them is burgeoning, and Turkey is not particularly worried about Iran's nuclear program.

    It is worth noting, though, that alongside his stinging remarks, Erdogan rebuffed opposition calls to sever diplomatic ties with Israel, and he made clear that Turkey's foreign relations "are not emotional" but are conducted with reason. "Dear friends, we are not running a supermarket here, we are running the Republic of Turkey," he said.

    A close relationship with Turkey is of supreme importance to Israel. We must not quarrel with Erdogan. Instead, we need to find a way to blunt the crisis and repair ties. This will be an urgent mission for the new government in Jerusalem.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060816.html
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,510
    Watching the film Children of Men, I can't help but think of Gaza City from what happens in the movie. Very strange, eerily familiarity with what happens in there and what happens in Gaza. Almost prophetic. Could this be the future for the rest of the world? Minus the disease, of course.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #4,352
    The US garden of evil


    In a recent Arab-language television interview, Barack Obama said, “Ultimately, we cannot tell either the Israelis or the Palestinians what’s best for them. They’re going to have to make some decisions. But I do believe that the moment is ripe for both sides to realize that the path that they are on is one that is not going to result in prosperity and security for their people. And that instead, it’s time to return to the negotiating table.”

    But we have been telling the Israelis and the Palestinians what is best for them for years now. It’s what we do. Our approval of Israel’s rampages against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have stymied peace and given Israel support to shunt Palestinians into ghettos where they are deprived of food, water, electricity, and access to health services -- in other words, Palestinians are treated as inhuman with the US stamp of “Amen.” It’s little wonder that Palestinian resistance fighters launch an occasional rocket into Israel.

    And, now, exacerbating another complex and unwinnable quagmire, Obama will send more of our troops into Afghanistan, having learned nothing from the Soviet example. A New York Times headline put it this way: “Aides Say Obama’s Afghan Aims Elevate War.”

    Elevate means to exalt or raise to a higher spiritual level. Certainly, the words “war” and “elevate” are incongruous.

    When intelligence, often faulty, locates al Qaeda in an Afghan house or village, our military levels the particular site, frequently killing more civilians, including children, than enemy fighters. This isn’t just sowing seeds of hatred; it’s fertilizing and tending the garden of evil. We have lost the support of the people of Afghanistan just as we have lost the support of the Iraqis.

    War does not elevate. It devalues human life -- our own and the people whose lives are forever scarred by our aerial assaults and weapons of mass destruction, if they survive the devastation.

    Surely, our leadership should know this. But, instead of committing to peace, Barack Obama and Joe Biden are escalating war. Remember, it was Joe who said you don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist, words that transport more than a whiff of white phosphorous, words that threaten the very existence of Palestinians, words translating that Obama’s power ascendancy will mean squalor and a system of apartheid to the people driven from their land by the Israeli government, a government gifted so generously with our tax dollars.

    Before Joe Biden took his oath as VP, he traveled to Afghanistan to scold Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai for being unhelpful to US goals. The puppet Karzai walks a tightrope, trying to balance his act: “Make my people happy or make America happy” is the dilemma that has to be streaming constantly through his mind. Sort of like the lesson Jill Biden must be pounding into Joe’s head each morning as he leaves Number 1 Observatory Circle: “Remember, you are the vice president, not the president.”

    And as Obama asserts himself as the new toughie who can direct the rise and fall of countries, he would do well to remember his message on Arab television: Palestinians and Israelis should “realize that the path that they are on is one that is not going to result in prosperity and security for their people.”

    Neither is the path we are on -- a surge of troops to Afghanistan, missile strikes in Pakistan, all-options-are-open threats to Iran, and excuses and support for Israel’s war crimes against the people of Palestine. And on Iraq, there’s Obama’s Catch 22: “Do I listen to the generals or to the people who elected me?”

    The new president seems to dislike the rallying cry, “war on terror.” But his choice of neocon advisers and menacing rhetoric indicate we may soon have a new slogan, the “occupation on terror,” for our continued shameful and indefensible incursions for empire.

    By Missy Comley Beattie
    http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4305.shtml
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #4,353
    If you still don't know what the siege is like, read this:

    Gaza: abandoned, embattled and divided


    GAZA is like a melancholy reflection of Monaco. An enclave of misery and isolation on sparkling Mediterranean shores.

    Wedged between Israel, Egypt and the sea, the territory is home to 1.5 million Palestinians who are unable to leave its 360 square kilometres. At war with Israel, forsaken by Egypt, abandoned by the rest of the Arab world that had promised succour, Gaza is now implacably divided.

    On one side are the Gazans aligned with Fatah, the political faction of Yasser Arafat and the only internationally recognised voice of the Palestinian people. On the other side are the supporters of Hamas, the Iranian-backed Islamic movement that won control of Gaza in May 2007.

    Since then, the world has looked on as all those who oppose Hamas have played a role in sealing Gaza off from the outside. With no commercial imports or exports allowed by either Egypt or Israel, the Gazan economy has been virtually destroyed. Unemployment stands at about 60 per cent, and 70 per cent of the population depend on handouts from the United Nations for their daily food requirements.

    As fighting between the Palestinians and Israelis has resumed over the past six weeks, leading to the collapse of the fragile ceasefire that had been in place since June, the situation inside Gaza has deteriorated even further.

    With not enough diesel to run the power stations, electricity supply is fickle. Most homes get power for only a few hours a day.

    Without fuel to run the water treatment plants, raw sewage is being pumped directly into the sea and on open land.

    "Everyone is haunted with despair, with the feeling that the place is going somewhere we don't know," says the psychiatrist Dr Eyad el-Sarraj, founder and president of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program and a commissioner of the Palestinian Independent Commission for Human Rights. He estimates a third of Gaza residents are showing signs of deterioration in their mental health that requires medical intervention.

    "Lack of sleep, aggressive behaviour, intense anxiety, loss of appetite, mood swings, depression - the psychological impact of the siege is massive," he says. "The first question from people, whether they are patients or they are counsellors, is: 'What is going to happen to us? Where are we going, where are we heading? You must know better than we do."'

    He adds: "Of course I do not know, and I have the same questions."

    Because there are no emaciated bodies in Gaza, or people dying of malnutrition, the humanitarian crisis here can appear less compelling than others around the world.

    But the longevity of the conflict and its relentless impact on people's daily lives make it no less harrowing, and not just for the people living inside Gaza.

    The Israelis who live in the towns and farmlands that surround Gaza have been terrorised by the launch of about 3000 homemade Qassam rockets fired at them by Palestinian militants over the past 12 months.

    "What I am trying to deal with here is the consequences of political failure," says John Ging, the director of operations for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in Gaza. "It's a massive humanitarian problem that is growing every day.

    "Whoever you want to blame, the ordinary people are the ones who are paying a very heavy humanitarian price, by being stripped of their human dignity and their very survival here being reduced to a subsistence level."

    Apart from the private homes of a wealthy few, or inside the few hotels frequented by non-government aid workers or foreign media who are allowed to enter Gaza, almost every aspect of life in Gaza appears to be in disrepair.

    The roads are mostly ruined and strewn with refuse, half-completed buildings stand frozen in time, office buildings are empty and on most corners groups of men stand idle
    .

    Perhaps the most acute area of disrepair is Shifa Hospital, the largest health provider in Gaza. In some cases, the Israeli and Egyptian authorities will allow patients through their borders to receive specialist medical treatment. But many who apply to leave for medical reasons have their requests denied for security reasons.

    Dr Faouzi Nabulsi, who heads the hospital's intensive care unit, estimates that since May last year there have been about 300 deaths that could have been avoided if the borders were open.

    Dr Nabulsi led the Herald to the bed of 20-year-old Hamza Shahien, a cameraman for the Hamas-run television station Al-Aqsa TV. On December 9, Shahien was injured by a shell fired from an Israeli drone that was targeting militants who had fired Qassam rockets into Israel. He had both legs amputated below the knee.

    "The problem we face now is septicaemia," Dr Nabulsi said. "We don't have the drugs to treat him here and without those drugs he will die. The infection will kill him. We have tried to get him out to an Israeli hospital, but he has been refused because they say he is a security risk."

    At the hospital's nephrology department, which treats kidney disease, Dr Nafez Eneim says he has 28 kidney dialysis machines operating for 16 hours a day.

    Another 12 machines cannot be used because the spare parts to repair them cannot be brought in.

    "They tell us that the electronic plates we need to repair the machines and other spare parts could be used for other things, that they are a security risk," he says.

    Daily power cuts at the hospital present other challenges. After each, the dialysis machines have to be reprogrammed, taking about five minutes each - and any blood in them has to be drained because of clotting risks. Tubes then have to be changed, the machine sterilised, doubling the running costs and using supplies twice as fast.

    "No one is dying in my ward because I cannot give them care," he says. "But their lives are being shortened, and the quality of their life is reduced."

    Life in the commercial world is equally fraught by the closure of the borders.

    Faysal Shawa, the secretary-general of the Palestinian Businessmen Association, and from a prominent Palestinian business family, owns several factories and once employed several hundred workers.

    When Israel ended its occupation of Gaza in 2005, Shawa says there was a mood of great optimism on all sides and he invested about $US1.5 million in an asphalt factory. "You know how long it operated? About 50 hours. I finished the factory in early 2006 and already things had got so bad I could never get the raw materials in. Without raw materials, I cannot make asphalt. So I close the factory.

    "This is the story all over Gaza. Since last year, we estimate around 4000 factories and businesses have closed for this reason. One hundred thousand jobs have been lost."

    Chronic shortages of items such as cooking gas mean that Gazans face major challenges just to heat their food.

    For Rabah Kahlout, an unemployed metalworker who lives in the Jabaliya Refugee camp, a 1.4 square kilometre area that houses about 100,000 people, one solution was to modify an old LPG cylinder and fill it with kerosene.

    By attaching a bicycle pump to a valve he drilled into to the cylinder, he can create enough pressure inside to produce a jet strong enough to cook on.:tup:

    So what keeps Gaza from disintegrating completely?

    First, the Palestinian Authority, in the West Bank capital of Ramallah, has continued to pay the salaries of public servants, guaranteeing a trickle of money into Gaza. Other sources of income include the likes of the Red Cross and other aid organisations, and the large United Nations missions.

    Second, the black market, which is supplied by a network of tunnels under the border with Egypt, delivers all kinds of food, fuel, electronic equipment and other goods. Operated in open view of the Egyptian authorities despite an official ban, the tunnels have created a new class of corruption.

    "At first, the smuggling was good. We got food, of poor quality, but better than nothing," el-Sarraj says.

    "But now we have new warlords. People die digging tunnels and smuggling in these goods, and if Egypt wanted to, they could shut them down tomorrow. So why can't we trade openly? This is all about politics, nothing else."

    There are some islands of creativity and relief. Foreign aid has helped start programs such as the Qattam Music Foundation, which began in October to teach 35 children the violin, piano, guitar and Arabic string instruments, the qanoon and oud.

    "Our biggest concern at first was Hamas, who worried that other Islamic nations would disapprove of allowing music programs," says the program's director, Ibrahim al-Najjar. "But Palestinians have always been a musical people so we have started and we will continue, God willing."

    If there is any chance of peace or of ending the relentlessly debilitating humanitarian situation in Gaza, the rhetoric of both sides is not encouraging.

    Dr Ahmed Youssef, a political adviser to the Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, told the Herald that unless Israel was prepared to open the borders, then Hamas was prepared for an intensive military campaign.

    "History tells us that without you standing and defending yourself nobody will come to save you." Militants declare early end to truce agreement

    The Herald
     

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