Immigration (2 Viewers)

[Dostoevsky]

theres no 'and', its just goldman sachs

He probably meant JP Morgan.

What Deneb said...

IMO, it would be foolish to question the Big D on issues of this nature.

Not questioning people is what brought us here.

 

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[king Ale]

If I were you, I'd move. There's gotta be a reason the people you know never went back.

That's not entirely true ALC. It's also somehow admitting to others (in your own country) that you couldn't survive. And as much as it might sound meaningless, it's happened to many people I know. It's not like they would be better off in Iran (in case they came back) but it's obviously not a path "everyone" should take. Here in Iran people are not used to working hard because that's not what earns you money. There are people who work hard for their entire life and they can't even own their house. Then they move dreaming for a better life but I do believe that if you are not a hardworking type of person in your country, you can't succeed in the US/Canada etc where you have to work hard for every penny you earn. Many of them still stay because they had to sell everything they owned back in their homeland in order to raise money for immigration.

Hoori, you're better off leaving and improving your situation. Once you've gotten an education, worked for a while and once you can stand on your own two feet then you'll be in a better position to help. Staying there to 'fight' the system will eventually land you in trouble. Also, the people there would benefit more from you once your more qualified and once you've built a network.

I raise the same questions when it comes to Pakistan even though I've barely ever lived there. It hurts me to see its current stae. There's a huge 'brain-drain' there, as they say, and I think it's sad. Who's going to help the situation if everyone leaves? Reality is that staying limits your chances of being of any use. Best thing to do is to go abroad and then find ways to improve things in the motherland. If the situation improves you can always go back. Skilled IT professionals from India for example, who left to study/work in the States ( Silicon Valley to be specific) have started a reverse trend and are now going back opening up their own businesses because opportunities have opened and the situation has improved.

But you know Tahir, thing is that I'm not sure I will care as much if I settle well in another country. Have you ever thought of coming back? Why should you?

 

[Azzurri7]

Why shouldn't you?

I never understand those who never go back(unless they have really awful income and terrible financial situation) but if one can visit from time to time why wouldn't he/she? The more one visits his homeland the more he'll know whether someday he'll live back home or not.

 

[king Ale]

I don't know what the right thing is for you. What I can tell you is that I wanted to emigrate for years. From the age of high school I already knew that I wanted to at least go abroad to go to college, that was kinda my dream. Now, it wasn't until a good 5-6 years later that I actually did come to Holland, but through all this time my desire never waned and I'm quite sure that if I hadn't done it (Holland or elsewhere) I would always be thinking what could have been. So if you recognize yourself in that story, it would be a shame for you to always be thinking "I had the chance and I didn't take it".

I've learned to never blame myself (have regrets) for doing what I thought of it as "the right thing" to do at the time I decided to do it so that doesn't apply to me but the real dilemma is that today I care about something that probably won't matter to me that much if I move and settle in another country. I might even laugh at myself for thinking twice about moving out of the country. But then I agree that there is always this feeling that I completely forgot about an option without having any personal experience about it.

I don't really know how to respond to that. I guess it depends on how much of a change you think you can actually bring. If what you said before is true, that you want to be a teacher, then that is a very influential role and you can no doubt do a lot of good to your students. It's also a career that could give you a lot of satisfaction that way.

What you call sentimental is your social conscience, so let's not brush that under the carpet too hastily.

Teaching is a career I'll surely pursue even if it would be second to the main job I'm going to have.

I really believe that it's individuals who can change things. "Everyone is leaving, what's good about staying when there is not anyone left/care to bother themselves to make a change?", when you leave because everyone is leaving, I will leave because not only "everyone" but you are also leaving. This must be stopped somewhere in this chain.

Isn't social conscience euphemism for sentimental thinking?

Almost everyone (family/friends) think that I'm being too idealistic, sentimental and silly

A lot of people make deals with themselves. "Okay I'll go, I'll stay for 5 years and come back." And then they end up staying permanently. Basically if the new country was really hurting them they would be back within 6 months.

I think there is something really empowering and beautiful about the fact that a lot of people can move to a country that is more appropriate for them. Just because we're born in a place, so what?

Totally agreed. It's funny that it's what I have always said while discussing international football with Andy
I don't have to be the Iranian football national team fan but I can still care about what's going on around me

 

[king Ale]

I can certainly relate to that. One of the main reasons I'm still living in India, when I could, with a little effort, be somewhere in the West. No matter how shitty the system is, I believe that we owe a lot to our homeland for providing what it has to us and our parents. I know that I will move elsewhere for a few years because no matter the where I work or the number of hours I work I will not save enough to provide what I wish to provide my family. The money here sucks and I will have to earn elsewhere. But I don't ever want to be one of those people complaining about the homeland sitting thousands of miles away in there posh homes drinking beer with white folks D) I do what I can to this country, even if it means it's as meagre as paying my taxes.

Now that I'm talking to you I'm sure that immigration would be a temporary option for me but I'm not sure if I'll still have the same sentiments the moment I start drinking beer with white folks

 

[Martin]

I've learned to never blame myself (have regrets) for doing what I thought of it as "the right thing" to do at the time I decided to do it so that doesn't apply to me but the real dilemma is that today I care about something that probably won't matter to me that much if I move and settle in another country. I might even laugh at myself for thinking twice about moving out of the country. But then I agree that there is always this feeling that I completely forgot about an option without having any personal experience about it.

I think this is totally true and I'll go one step further. The people who really care what's going on "back home" are almost always the same people who can't make peace and settle properly in the new country, because their mind is elsewhere. It's like they don't fully accept the fact that "now I'm living here".Their mindset is "why do these people do things in such a strange way?" instead of "why do we do things in such a way?"

If you emigrate and start working in a new country, make connections there, have kids, see your kids go to school, make friends etc etc, then inevitably the situation there is going to be much more important to you than the situation in Iran, because it affects you on an everyday basis.

Teaching is a career I'll surely pursue even if it would be second to the main job I'm going to have.

I really believe that it's individuals who can change things. "Everyone is leaving, what's good about staying when there is not anyone left/care to bother themselves to make a change?", when you leave because everyone is leaving, I will leave because not only "everyone" but you are also leaving. This must be stopped somewhere in this chain.

Clearly leaving "because everyone is leaving" is not a great reason. On the other hand, "staying because everyone is leaving" maybe isn't either.

Isn't social conscience euphemism for sentimental thinking?

Almost everyone (family/friends) think that I'm being too idealistic, sentimental and silly

Is moral conscience sentimental? Yes, because it goes to our sentiment, it's steered by the emotional part of our brain. Social conscience is the same thing, just on a bigger scale.

Is that silly? I don't know, it's part of a bigger question, namely hope. Is hope good or bad? It's good because it helps your morale in adversity. It's bad because it makes you sit around endlessly hoping that something will change and it never does.

Two sides of the coin and all that.

 

[Martin]

Now that I'm talking to you I'm sure that immigration would be a temporary option for me but I'm not sure if I'll still have the same sentiments the moment I start drinking beer with white folks

It doesn't get anymore white than Lapa and it doesn't get anymore beer than Lapa

 

[Ford Prefect]

But you know Tahir, thing is that I'm not sure I will care as much if I settle well in another country. Have you ever thought of coming back? Why should you?

Hoori try and see it as an act of democracy.

(this is hypothetical)

If the majority like the way the country is run and you don't then you are left with little choice but to leave, to find somewhere you feel happy. If the country is being run badly but by an unpopular autocracy, the mass migration out of the country will force a change.

Especially in the case of iran, you had a revolution 32 years ago, it is possible to change the power structure.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Our unemployment rate is 5.2% (including those unable to work), Melbourne was recently voted the worlds most liveable city, we have great education and there is plenty of work.

really? I find work very hard to come by in Melbourne, even though I'm in engineering - that could be because I've yet to apply for PR, but even then it's very competitive. Also, aren't they changing/restricting the rules on visas and PRs and such? That's what my housemate tells me and she works in the immigration dept. But I do agree Melbourne is a very liveable city, well organised and as far as I know no blatant/serious racism

 

[Salvo]

Look its not easy but it is definately easier than other countries.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

You forgot about the 'roos, gators, iguanas, snakes, scorpions, and basically things that creep you the fuck out if they somehow don't manage to kill you

J/k, I'd love to visit Australia one day.

We have the most poisonous/venomous spiders and snakes in the world here. Thank fuck I live nowhere near the areas where those things are common

 

[icemaη]

I'm white

i said i don't want to be the type that complains, i'd love to drink beer with white folk, especially you

Now that I'm talking to you I'm sure that immigration would be a temporary option for me but I'm not sure if I'll still have the same sentiments the moment I start drinking beer with white folks

it's very common... lot of things change once you are in a better living environment... and then mostly things get out of your hand... you want what's best for your family and you know you can't provide that back home and you'll be forced to compromise...
i agree completely with your sentiments... one of the main reason i have put off even trying to go abroad for so long... i know that when push gets to shove i'll put family above everything else and put my ideals in the bin...

 

[ALC]

"go back"? So you're one of us?

That's not entirely true ALC. It's also somehow admitting to others (in your own country) that you couldn't survive. And as much as it might sound meaningless, it's happened to many people I know. It's not like they would be better off in Iran (in case they came back) but it's obviously not a path "everyone" should take. Here in Iran people are not used to working hard because that's not what earns you money. There are people who work hard for their entire life and they can't even own their house. Then they move dreaming for a better life but I do believe that if you are not a hardworking type of person in your country, you can't succeed in the US/Canada etc where you have to work hard for every penny you earn. Many of them still stay because they had to sell everything they owned back in their homeland in order to raise money for immigration.

That's true. It's all about the lifestyle you want to live too. It wouldn't hurt to try it and then you could always go back to Iran if you like it there or move there after you've accomplished something so you can have a bigger effect on the development of the country.

We have the most poisonous/venomous spiders and snakes in the world here. Thank fuck I live nowhere near the areas where those things are common

That's a part of why I like it too. It feels like going there would be a legit adventure.

 

[Elvin]

It's always better to stay in one's own country, it's easier. BUT, if you do decide to move on my advice would be to go somewhere touristic, it's always easier to adapt both for you and for them, also the climate is always nice. I suggest Spain, Cyprus, Malta, Brazil.
In Northern countries people are distant, climate is cold and you will feel lonely sooner or later.

PS Obviously, Iran is one of the worst places to live in.

 

[Bianconero81]

It's always better to stay in one's own country, it's easier. BUT, if you do decide to move on my advice would be to go somewhere touristic, it's always easier to adapt both for you and for them, also the climate is always nice. I suggest Spain, Cyprus, Malta, Brazil.
In Northern countries people are distant, climate is cold and you will feel lonely sooner or later.

PS Obviously, Iran is one of the worst places to live in.

Great place. Trust me. It's not always easier to live in one's own country, but this is coming from a guy who spent 10 years in Thailand, 3 in Singapore, 3 in Cyprus, and 4 in the former Yugoslavia. 2/3 of my life spent outside Egypt, so I guess I can't really claim it to be home.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Despite the advice I'm getting from people here, my main concern is not where to immigrate but rather if I should immigrate at all.

There's only one person who can answer this question. Whatever anyone on here or somewhere else says doesn't really matter much.

In the end, you have got to do what's best for you personally. Everything else should come second imo.
Question is: would you be happier living in a different, free society or would you be happier trying to change the situation in Iran. Difficult, even close to impossible to know in advance obviously. But judging on your posts (in this thread & others), my guess would be option 1.

 

[Golazo]

Australia, because we have it damn good here.

My girlfriend's family is also from Iran (Assyrian).

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

Plenty of Assyrians in the area I grew up in in Sydney.

 

[Golazo]

Fairfield/Livo?

 

[JuveJay]

Notice how everyone else says 'come here, it's great, we have____, ____ and ____. Whether that is true or not, they are selling it.

British people say 'don't fucking come here, it's shit (and we really hate you taking our jobs, giros and women)'. Also not true.

British mentality