"I support Muslims who love freedom" (38 Viewers)

[Bisco]

I don't intend to push anyone out of "the circle of Islam". Thats not for me to judge at all. I also don't tend to insult you at all, i'm sorry if it sounded that way. I just want people to know that i(along with a big percentage of muslims) do not agree with many of Saudi Arabia's practices that are a direct result of Ibn Abdel Wahab's teachings.

Muhammad Ibn Abdel Wahab(for ppl who don't know, wahhabism is traced to him), intended to bring reform to Islam, and as a direct result of his teachings, you find practices in Saudi Arabia like "The committee for promotion of virtue and prevention of sin". Where in the Koran does it say, that we should have committees that control how people behave? Whats the point of judgment day and the afterlife, if we have a committee forcing people to behave in certain ways. If someone doesn't pray, you don't force him to pray, if a woman doesn't wear a niqab, you don't force her to wear one.

fred there is no argument about the part about wahbi but i'm sure angelus has more info as its his country. u r mistaken-ed how ever bec it is mentioned in the holy quran that there should be a committee to make sure good things are done and wrong doings are prevented but off course not in the way the current committee in saudi acts!! i was born and raised here all my life and i can tell u they have nothing to do with islam specially in the methods they use i,e holding people for not praying, or having long hair, etc etc etc my own brother got beat up bec he was'nt praying!!

give me a bit and i will tell u exactly which surah and which verse has the point i mentioned. once again it has nothing to do with what the committee here in ksa does.

truth be told there power is decreasing year after year!! i have been in riyadh for the past 18 days an apart from certain all saudi neighborhoods they pretty much dont exist. oh and they were worst in riyadh considering its the capital of the kingdom.

Some of the stories you hear of them are absolutely shocking.

@Angelus, is it true that they are seriously contemplating dissolving it??

now adays they r not as bad as they were say 8 years ago!!! i've had to run from them on several occasions my own brother back then was 14 he got caught for not praying and he got punched in there center while my dad signed a petition so they can release him provided he does'nt get caught again. oh and he had to shave his head off!!! what does this have to do with not praying still remains a mystery!!


fred u need to be corrected here:

1- no one forces women to wear niquab, my mum is vieled but does not cover her hand or face and no one comes near her. the committee back in the day would make a deal of covering the hair and making sure the abaya is closed but barely made remarks about niqab and if they did women ignored them.

2- niqab in this part of the world is a cultural thing not more not less. its goes way back in there tradition and cultures. thr same applies to the rest of the gulf states and some bedoin civilizations in the rest of the arab nations.

 

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[Fred]

Ya i was mistaken about them forcing women to wear niqab, they do force them to wear hijab though, which isn't a lot different. The idea is, you're making decisions for the woman, are you going to be judged for her actions in the afterlife?? No you're not, so stop forcing her to wear a hijab, its that simple.

As for the Koran, it does say that muslims should always try to promote virtue and prevent sin, but, that is more advisory than forcing people to do things. I mean, if the committee was just there to advise people to pray, but then let them make their own decisions, thats ok. If they just advise women to wear a Hijab, but then let them decide, then thats good too. They are already promoting virtue. But when you hit people in the street when they don't pray, you really aren't promoting virtue, are you? More like you're forcing virtue.

The verse i am expecting you to bring is one where it probably asks Muslims "الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر"
But like i said, the intention there is advisory.

 

[Bisco]

Ya i was mistaken about them forcing women to wear niqab, they do force them to wear hijab though, which isn't a lot different. The idea is, you're making decisions for the woman, are you going to be judged for her actions in the afterlife?? No you're not, so stop forcing her to wear a hijab, its that simple.

As for the Koran, it does say that muslims should always try to promote virtue and prevent sin, but, that is more advisory than forcing people to do things. I mean, if the committee was just there to advise people to pray, but then let them make their own decisions, thats ok. If they just advise women to wear a Hijab, but then let them decide, then thats good too. They are already promoting virtue. But when you hit people in the street when they don't pray, you really aren't promoting virtue, are you? More like you're forcing virtue.

The verse i am expecting you to bring is one where it probably asks Muslims "الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر"
But like i said, the intention there is advisory.

the verse is close but not the one i have in mind. i'm just waiting for my mum to get back from work and i will let her tell me where it is bec i personally dont know its place i remember hearing it in one of the friday speeches

i do agree with u about the advisory sense in handling issues, dont get me wrong. as i mentioned in my previous post they do it in a very wrong way that makes people hate religion if u are catching my drift. people dont learn by getting beaten up or yelled at but they learn by seeing other people set a proper example.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Ya i was mistaken about them forcing women to wear niqab, they do force them to wear hijab though, which isn't a lot different. The idea is, you're making decisions for the woman, are you going to be judged for her actions in the afterlife?? No you're not, so stop forcing her to wear a hijab, its that simple.

As for the Koran, it does say that muslims should always try to promote virtue and prevent sin, but, that is more advisory than forcing people to do things. I mean, if the committee was just there to advise people to pray, but then let them make their own decisions, thats ok. If they just advise women to wear a Hijab, but then let them decide, then thats good too. They are already promoting virtue. But when you hit people in the street when they don't pray, you really aren't promoting virtue, are you? More like you're forcing virtue.

The verse i am expecting you to bring is one where it probably asks Muslims "الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر"
But like i said, the intention there is advisory.

you dont ask them if they re wahhabi you ask them about divine attributes. as in does God actually sit on a throne, as in literally

 

[Fred]

you dont ask them if they re wahhabi you ask them about divine attributes. as in does God actually sit on a throne, as in literally

Ya i heard about that before. Though i think i heard there was a divide of opinion amonst salafi scholars over whether God literally sits on a throne.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Ya i heard about that before. Though i think i heard there was a divide of opinion amonst salafi scholars over whether God literally sits on a throne.

no that was just an example, the issue is attributes as in literal face, hand ...

 

[Fred]

no that was just an example, the issue is attributes as in literal face, hand ...

Was this also brought about by Muhammed Ibn Abdel Wahab??

 

[king Ale]

Any answer but this and I would have been face palming

Here's a movie that shows the very beginnings of Islam.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/

Full Movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5PI4ZPcX6I

I watched it many many years ago for like three times and I enjoyed it a lot, back then

 

[PhRoZeN]

Was this also brought about by Muhammed Ibn Abdel Wahab??

Im suprised you know so little of him.

 

[Fred]

What do you mean?

 

[PhRoZeN]

What do you mean?

Well as deneb mentioned one of the base principles of ibn abdel wahab, was to know about god and how he described himself in the quran nothing more, he opposed polytheism within what is a supposedly monotheistic islam. How or what he did is a different matter and history can tell you several stories to and fro, but if you read some of his actual works youd understand much more.

 

[Fred]

Well as deneb mentioned one of the base principles of ibn abdel wahab, was to know about god and how he described himself in the quran nothing more, he opposed polytheism within what is a supposedly monotheistic islam. How or what he did is a different matter and history can tell you several stories to and fro, but if you read some of his actual works youd understand much more.

I do intend to read some of his works. Kitab el Tawheed, i heard is one of his more important books.

 

[PhRoZeN]

I do intend to read some of his works. Kitab el Tawheed, i heard is one of his more important books.

Yeah its one of his popular ones, another one is Usool at thalaata. The Salafis are just people who liked his works but he came from a hanafi/hambali school of thought so has a lot of commonalities with other muslims too.

 

[PhRoZeN]

So I thought id actually read what this freedom lovers got to say. I didnt reach far until I reached this point.

"A few years later I read in the Qur'an how the seventh-century Arabs
felt in the presence of Muhammad, which, as several verses describe
"threw terror into their hearts" (Sura 8:12"

How retarded is he and manipulative. That verse has no reference to Muhammed throwing terror into the hearts but God himself.

Just a little background behind it

This verse were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century. A battle in which the pagans of Makkah traveled more than 200 miles to Madinah with an army of about 1000 to destroy Muslims. Prophet Muhammad and fellow Muslims had suffered severe persecutions and torture for 13 years in the city of Makkah. And now that they had fled Makkah and found a sanctuary in the city of Madinah, they were once again threatened. Muslim Army was only about 300 strong. God gave the order to Muslims to fight to defend their lives and faith. The enemy came to them with the intent to kill Muslims. It was a war to defend themselves and their Faith. It was a war imposed upon Muslims.

Theres so much that can be said behind these verses but for a gimp like gert to come out and throw out verses like an ignorant fool he is, just come to show he wants freedom to be a slanderer and a lier. Well Gert, do so as you wish but you aint fooling me.

Okay I went till here. As a rule of thumb, I generally do not comment about religions on the forum. But I do read the articles. That statement is wrong and taken out of context. Actually not even taken out of context. Just blatantly manipulated. The verse (the verse number is wrong its 43:17 I believe) says the fathers face turns black when he sees a daughter. This was before Islam came into the life of the people of Mecca. Not during or after Islam. The Quraish used to bury their daughters alive at birth. The sura goes on to tell that they'll be accountable for what they did to their daughters.
I'm not really well versed in Islam, so others can add. But I'm fairly sure about the origin and use of the verse mentioned. I'll read no further, unless someone says I have to.

An article that is full of lies and fallacies.

Im glad people use their heads.

 

[- Angelus -]

(ولتكن منكم أمة يدعون إلى الخير ويأمرون بالمعروف وينهون عن المنكر وأولئك هم المفلحون )

i dont remember which sura i think its al3mran

this is the verse fred and no thay will not dissolv it and i hope not

yes The committee for promotion of virtue and prevention have alot of proplems becaus of the pepoles who runs it most of them didnt get the proper education ... most of them just ignorant want to do well and they lack the means to do so and most of the wrong incident happened in riyadh ... i live in dammam and my hair reach half of my back and i never get any proplems with them ... outsider dont know how many good thing thay do for our community drugs , vice , and the last thing the start to do catch men who blackmail girls by pictures or whatever and keep the girls anonymous and no one have any idae about her even her parents

i agree it have alot of proplems but in general its good organization for us

 

[Fred]

Yes like i told Bisco before, i am aware of that verse. Promotion of virtue and prevention of sin is in the Koran, but not in the way the committee is doing it. You promote virtue by convincing people, not by beating them up and hitting them, that is forcing "virtue" not promoting it.

 

[ReBeL]

Yes like i told Bisco before, i am aware of that verse. Promotion of virtue and prevention of sin is in the Koran, but not in the way the committee is doing it. You promote virtue by convincing people, not by beating them up and hitting them, that is forcing "virtue" not promoting it.

In addition, if they want to impose these "good" acts on normal people, they should start by making the ruling family being committed to these regulations before imposing them on others.

The committee should not be hypocrite. Either apply regulations on everybody or just keep silent and mind your own business.

 

[WΏΏdy?]

soo much talking and i dont think ive seen a single person admitting he was wrong/right or that he learned something..
i dont see the point of a thread where people ask questions and dont reply to the answers they get

 

[Fred]

Ya, everything will be fine and this thread would have a purpose if Martin just admitted he was wrong and embraced Islam

 

[WΏΏdy?]

or he just had time to kill and wicked martin posted a random article and is laughing the hardest at the whole discussion
point is if this thread was about the article martin posted,then the thread is done...