Happy Independence Day (2 Viewers)

[swag]

But is it the man's work as much as it is the translation of the man's work? Does "gharaniq" truly mean "satanic"?

Well, the guy is an atheist, so that's probably strike one right there. And I can see the point of his work being hurtful. But hurtful is a cultural interpretation. It goes back to what I said about people not being wrong for feeling offended about something, regardless of intent or context, but the reality on any "hurt" in that context is only as good in the person who feels the hurt.

People in this country got woodies at the sight of a woman's ankles 200 years ago -- a concept today that is laughable. It's not the ankles alone that make the erotic statement -- it's the culture around it. And in a parallel way, that's also true with offenses and hurt over something like The Satanic Verses.

On the one extreme, you could say that a person must be aware and sensitive to every conceivable person who might feel offended. At the other, you have an analogy to the white hat computer security guys -- meaning, this is the world today, you cannot change it to meet your narrower cultural expectations, so get used to it now and face the reality out there now because suffering is the avoidance of necessary, short-term pain. Otherwise, you have no business being out there if you cannot handle cultures other than your own. Just as some Westerner has no business being in Pakistan if they cannot respect the local customs.

Not surprisingly, I personally tend to lean towards the latter approach. While I cannot fathom what it must be like as a devout Muslim to experience the insult you might feel in a Satanic Verses, I see book banning as the regressive impulse of the ignorant and see a personal jihad-like struggle with the relevancy and meaning of religion in one's life to be fundamentally human. I cannot fathom from my own personally biased perspective how, for example, getting pissed off at your own diety as part of that jihad can be anything but humanizing and reflective of the Truth with a capital T.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

You were right with your first post (but I just had to give my two cents), I'm afraid we won't agree on this no matter how long we go on about it. At the end of the day you'll call it Freedom of Speech and I'll call it an unnecessary, hurtful, and vile work of a man with no intent to building bridges between people but burning them.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

and that is way, children, religion is evil

you and your tirade on religion is getting old, since you re so "illuminated" leave us "lost" ones be, seriously find something else

 

[Bjerknes]

Yo we be listening to Diggin' in the Crates here at the Burkes house. We be chillin' niggaz

 

[GordoDeCentral]

check out that drop on silver after hours

 

[swag]

You were right with your first post (but I just had to give my two cents), I'm afraid we won't agree on this no matter how long we go on about it. At the end of the day you'll call it Freedom of Speech and I'll call it an unnecessary, hurtful, and vile work of a man with no intent to building bridges between people but burning them.

I follow what you say about intent here. His intents seem more destructive and not at all constructive.

But this all rolls into what I think is a fascinating topic. Without trying to demean a man's or people's faith, I often view organized religions like biological organisms. They originate in a certain place, time, and culture, and they adapt to their environment -- or influence what's around it so that the culture adapts to it.

Where I can get more controversial is that I also see Darwinist parallels between religious proliferation and the proliferation of urban legends. Not to say they are the same, but they are both subject to the same societal forces. Fantastical enough to believe and to pass along -- or too fantastical or not fantastical enough, or culturally relevant enough, that they die out.

I was born in a Catholic background, and I've always wondered why the Gnostics fell away around 300 A.D. and yet Christianity evolved and grew to outlive the Roman Empire, and extend beyond. Not to mention how the vaunted Roman and Greek gods of old are now only viewed in museums.

The relevance of all this to Islam today I see is that I believe we're seeing some fundamental confrontations between the biological make-up of Islam and the wider world society as a whole. The mechanisms that made Islam such a successful and fruitful religion in its own, more isolated "elements" are butting up against the forces of globalization in ways that other religions haven't been challenged.

The Satanic Verses is one example. The reaction to, and also the creation of, the Danish newspaper cartoons being another. But a perfect example is the decentralized nature of Islamic authority. Because Islam is coded with DNA that does not obey a single living authority (which was the root of the horrible corruption in Christianity in the Dark Ages...and even in the priest abuse scandals of today), it limits the abuses to localized imams. And yet that also gives rise to (combined with the words of Mohamed) a handicap at addressing the question of heresy.

Which allows the psychotics with bombs (every religion has them) to more freely claim moral authority and avoid accountability. Which clashes with cultures used to central living religious authorities who presume that a lack of denunciation or "ownership" of the issue condemns the entire religious order. As wrong as this is, this is very much what I believe is at the root of the ignorance that equates Muslims with terrorists in Western culture.

In biology, there are always agents that exploit loopholes in an environment and use a system's defenses against itself. And these forces extend to a greater society. The real tragedy of AIDS, for example, wasn't so much the purely biological or physical manifestations of the disease, it was the loopholes in cultures and social mores that allowed it to proliferate most: public fear of homosexuality and the suppression of discussion and of offering help on moral grounds was the strongest agent the disease had to proliferate. Uganda addressed the social vectors head-on and virtually stopped the disease, while other cultures that swept it under the rug or tried to ignore it just exacerbated the disease and allowed it to kill millions.

Sorry to go off on such a tangent. How belief and social order operate under seemingly biological directives is a fascinating subject for me. And I can't help but talk about things like The Satanic Verses and the cultural divide it "exploits" under those terms.

 

[.zero]

JAI HIND BENACHODYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ahmed]

what's a benachod?

it's like ure saying bhenchod with an Italian accent

 

[Firestarter]

more than EPL, i hope we stop wanking to cricket!

Aarey, tumara desh ko kabhi ne sikhega EPL aur Criket ke taraf mein.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

sikhega? that didnt make sense! just say it in english dude!

 

[Firestarter]

Sikhega = Learn :faq2:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

u mean to say we'll never learn about EPL and cricket?

 

[Ahmed]

Aarey, tumara desh ko kabhi ne sikhega EPL aur Criket ke taraf mein.

:rofl2:

Oye mere bhai, tu Urdu/Hindi mein matt likh, aise to hamein bhi nahin samajh aayegi ke tu kya bol raha hai

 

[.zero]

tum dohno chup behetnaa

 

[Snoop]

shut the fuck up guys and post some India/Pakistan beauties

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

you and your tirade on religion is getting old, since you re so "illuminated" leave us "lost" ones be, seriously find something else

i never claimed of being illuminated. i can't point out that the man was sentenced to death for a work of fiction?

 

[Zé Tahir]

i never claimed of being illuminated. i can't point out that the man was sentenced to death for a work of fiction?

You know...you accuse us of blind faith yet if there's anything blind it's the statement you just made above. Is this a work of fiction?

The Holy Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(sa)
through the Archangel Gabriel. In Urdu an angel is called a 'farishta’.
One of the central characters in the novel is 'Gibreel Farishta’,
who throughout has been referred to as a sex-starved half-god,
half-human, on the loose who indulges in all sorts of vices including
adultery, incest and eating of pork just to prove that God is no
longer omnipotent. (pp. 25-30).

Mecca, which is regarded as the most sacred city in Islam, is
called the 'city of Jahlia’, meaning a city of ignorance. (p. 95).

Prophet Abraham(as) is called a 'bastard’ (p. 95)

Salman Farsi is called amongst other names 'some sort of bum’,
Bilal is called an 'enormous black monster’; these two noble companions
plus another one called Khalid are regarded as 'riff-raff,
trinity of scum, idlers’ and 'those goons those f...ing clowns’. (pp.
101-102). The Prophet’s uncle Hamza is also insulted (p. 104).

Salman Farsi
Bilal
Hamza

Was it also coincidental that the brothel named 'Hijab’, which
supposedly existed at the time of the Holy Prophet(sa), was full of
whores who are given names which are the same as the names of
the noble wives of the Holy Prophet(sa) ?

He has used the name 'Mahound’ to describe
Muhammad(sa). This was in accordance with the medieval propaganda
through the Crusades, which had built up a conception
of Muhammad(sa) as 'the great enemy’ to Christendom who was
transformed into Mahound, the prince of darkness. In 'Midnight’s
Children’ he clearly states, The prophet Muhammed (also known
as...Mahound) (p. 161).

Mahound

Death sentence aside (because I don't agree with that either), you tell me how this is a work of fiction?

 

[Arvin]

yo Tahir what did u do in 14th august?

btw Jashn Azadi Mubarak ho...sorry i am alitle late..

 

[Zé Tahir]

yo Tahir what did u do in 14th august?

btw Jashn Azadi Mubarak ho...sorry i am alitle late..

Khair Mubarik.

I didn't do anything on the 14th, but on the 30th the Pakistani community here has a festival and I'm going attend that. Last year Abrar-ul-Haq and other famous artists came, it was off the chain.

Where do you live?

 

[HelterSkelter]

He doesnt know