Happy Birthday Zionists! (1 Viewer)

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

And this Robert Spencer is the only one that understands Quran. Good for him.

What you quoted is true though, and he backs up what he has to say with quotes from scripture.

 

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[Bisco]

Ohh, it is?



http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/islam_unbelievers.html

Islamic law divides non-Muslims into several categories, depending on their relation with the Islamic state. Christians and Jews who live under Islamic rule are known as dhimmis ("protected peoples"). According to this pact, the personal safety and security of property of the dhimmis were guaranteed in return for paying tribute (jizya) to the Islamic state and acknowledging Muslim supremacy. Historically, dhimmis enjoyed a measure of communal autonomy under their own religious leaders, but were subject to legal, social and religious restrictions meant to highlight their inferiority.[118] The status was extended to Zoroastrians and sometimes to polytheists (such as Hindus), but not to atheists or agnostics.[119] Those who live in non-Muslim lands (dar al-harb) are known as harbis, and upon entering into an alliance with the Muslim state become known as ahl al-ahd. Those who receive a guarantee of safety while residing temporarily in Muslim lands are known as ahl al-amān. Their legal position is similar to that of the dhimmi except that they are not required to pay the jizya. The people of armistice (ahl al-hudna) are those who live outside of Muslim territory and agree to refrain from attacking the Muslims.[120][121] Apostasy is prohibited, and is punishable by death.[122][123]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Other_religions

is this what u were asking about bruke?

 

[Zé Tahir]

Why not take a serious jab at it? Don't take a roundabout way out by laughing at 3 lines. What about the idea presented?

I did Burke, I went through all of it. The thing is that this guy is clearly anti-Islam, he's not neutral in any sense of the word.

I'm always open to discussions with people of all faiths and creeds and that includes you, but if the arguments presented are not logical then all I can do is to laugh.

People have taken parts of the Qur'an just as these people have and haven't bothered to investigate their meanings, and I know they haven't because people of their mindset think they're so smart that they don't need to.

A lot of the quotations given in the text are metaphorical, a lot of them were revealed to Prophet Muhammad during his exile and the Meccans were trying to kill him and his followers. Also the author has failed to quote verses of the Qur'an that would contradict his argument. The site isn't called the "Bane of Religion" for no reason.

Now the question is, are you willing to take a jab at something I show you?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Islamic law divides non-Muslims into several categories, depending on their relation with the Islamic state. Christians and Jews who live under Islamic rule are known as dhimmis ("protected peoples"). According to this pact, the personal safety and security of property of the dhimmis were guaranteed in return for paying tribute (jizya) to the Islamic state and acknowledging Muslim supremacy. Historically, dhimmis enjoyed a measure of communal autonomy under their own religious leaders, but were subject to legal, social and religious restrictions meant to highlight their inferiority.[118] The status was extended to Zoroastrians and sometimes to polytheists (such as Hindus), but not to atheists or agnostics.[119] Those who live in non-Muslim lands (dar al-harb) are known as harbis, and upon entering into an alliance with the Muslim state become known as ahl al-ahd. Those who receive a guarantee of safety while residing temporarily in Muslim lands are known as ahl al-amān. Their legal position is similar to that of the dhimmi except that they are not required to pay the jizya. The people of armistice (ahl al-hudna) are those who live outside of Muslim territory and agree to refrain from attacking the Muslims.[120][121] Apostasy is prohibited, and is punishable by death.[122][123]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Other_religions

is this what u were asking about bruke?

No, I'm asking about atheists, like me.

And who the fuck is Bruke?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I did Burke, I went through all of it. The thing is that this guy is clearly anti-Islam, he's not neutral in any sense of the word.

I'm always open to discussions with people of all faiths and creeds and that includes you, but if the arguments presented are not logical then all I can do is to laugh.

People have taken parts of the Qur'an just as these people have and haven't bothered to investigate their meanings, and I know they haven't because people of their mindset think they're so smart that they don't need to.

A lot of the quotations given in the text are metaphorical, a lot of them were revealed to Prophet Muhammad during his exile and the Meccans were trying to kill him and his followers. Also the author has failed to quote verses of the Qur'an that would contradict his argument. The site isn't called the "Bane of Religion" for no reason.

Now the question is, are you willing to take a jab at something I show you?

That doesn't mean he is more right or wrong though, as all spiritual texts are hypocritical. Especially the Bible and the Quo'ran, apparently.

And will I take a stab at something you show me? Only if it talks about atheists, like me, and their fate in the afterlife. As that was my original question.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

''Nonbelievers in Muslim lands are restricted so much that they must either convert to Islam just to live, or, they choose to die.''

false

Nonbelievers,Orthodox,Catholic people etc lived peacefully for centuries in Ottoman lands.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

''Nonbelievers in Muslim lands are restricted so much that they must either convert to Islam just to live, or, they choose to die.''

false

Nonbelievers,Orthodox,Catholic people etc lived peacefully for centuries in Ottoman lands.

Then the scriptures are false? The quotes are wrong? The question is, did those people live as equals, or were they enslaved, et cetera?

:analcanon: BLOOM, there it goes.

 

[Omair]

Burke, I didn't want to post in this thread .. but this post about Qur'an contains such wrong things .. first of all, I'm Saudi and our educational system is dubbed very extremist .. and we're not taught to kill off nonbelievers in case they don't convert .. I'm not a follower for the Saudi Wahhabi teachings .. all I'm saying that even extremists don't believe in what Robert Spencer has stated above ..

Anyway, this can go forever but I just wanted to tell you that not anything that's written about Islam is true .. and that article you posted is one of them ..

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Burke, I didn't want to post in this thread .. but this post about Qur'an contains such wrong things .. first of all, I'm Saudi and our educational system is dubbed very extremist .. and we're not taught to kill off nonbelievers in case they don't convert .. I'm not a follower for the Saudi Wahhabi teachings .. all I'm saying that even extremists don't believe in what Robert Spencer has stated above ..

Anyway, this can go forever but I just wanted to tell you that not anything that's written about Islam is true .. and that article you posted is one of them ..

The Quo'ran was written about Islam, right?





LOOK, TO EVERYONE, I'm not trying to hate on Islam, or Muslims. I have Islamic friends. My question is, what do scriptures say about ATHEISTS....

That is my only question.

 

[Omair]

And one more thing .. Lay low until we're superior again to wage war ?? What the hell ?? we're not low lives you know .. and our religion teaches how to be role models to everyone .. being such sly hypocrites is not what Islam teaches us ..

Historically, I never recall an occasion when Muslims failed a treaty or an agreement ..

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Then the scriptures are false? The quotes are wrong? The question is, did those people live as equals, or were they enslaved, et cetera?

:analcanon: BLOOM, there it goes.

explanation is different.

There is no Forced conversion in Islam.Islam says you should not harm any other people(whatever their religion).You can fight against them only if necessary(in war).

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

And one more thing .. Lay low until we're superior again to wage war ?? What the hell ?? we're not low lives you know .. and our religion teaches how to be role models to everyone .. being such sly hypocrites is not what Islam teaches us ..

Historically, I never recall an occasion when Muslims failed a treaty or an agreement ..

Peace treaties with Israel?

I'm not sure, just asking....

 

[Omair]

The Quo'ran was written about Islam, right?





LOOK, TO EVERYONE, I'm not trying to hate on Islam, or Muslims. I have Islamic friends. My question is, what do scriptures say about ATHEISTS....

That is my only question.

No .. Qur'an isn't written about Islam .. What we believe is that Qur'an is Allah's words to Prophet Mohammed, to be basically the law of Islam and the connection between Allah and Muslims .. and it's about life and Islam not only the latter ..

problem is many anti-islamists analysts just read what they find "wrong" without knowing context and why those verses were given to the prophet .. for example those verses in the 9th chapter .. are not about nonbelievers everywhere .. it's about nonbelievers in Makkah ..

 

[Omair]

Peace treaties with Israel?

I'm not sure, just asking....

I don't know of recent treaties .. I'm talking of the Ottoman empire and before ..

nevertheless, with Israel, I never heard of a treaty broken by Arab countries ..

 

[Zé Tahir]

That doesn't mean he is more right or wrong though, as all spiritual texts are hypocritical. Especially the Bible and the Quo'ran, apparently.

And will I take a stab at something you show me? Only if it talks about atheists, like me, and their fate in the afterlife. As that was my original question.

I can tell you that if you're an atheist but respect other people's faiths then you aren't necessarily destined for hell or anything. It is a misconception that Muslims believe that all non-believers are evil and will burn in hell.

Truth is Only God decides our fate.

Read this:

People who persecute in the name of religion are totally ignorant of the essence of religion. Religion is a metamorphosis of hearts. Religion is not politics and its adherents do not make up political parties. Neither is it a nationality with limited loyalties, nor a country with geographical borders. It is the transformation of hearts—transformation for the good of the soul. The home of religion is in the depths of the heart. It is beyond the sway of the sword. Mountains are not moved by the sword, nor are hearts changed by force. While persecution in the name of religion is the repetitive theme in the history of human aggression, freedom of conscience is the Quran’s repetitive theme.

The Prophetsa was asked again and again to proclaim: 'This is the truth from your Lord; let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ (18.30) Truth is obviously a matter of the heart; it has nothing to do with force. Once it has been seen it cannot be blotted out by any power. Hence the Quran’s assertion that once truth is known it is our choice to accept or reject it. Yet, elsewhere, the Quran says: 'Verily, this is a reminder: so whosoever wishes may take to the way that leads to his Lord.’ (76.30) No charter of human rights can surpass the clarity of the Quranic phrase faman Shaa’ (whosoever wishes). The word 'whosoever’ is all inclusive. It is surprising that after such a clear declaration anyone could possibly think that Islam supports the use of force.

Again, in the 39th chapter of the Quran, the Prophetsa is ordered to tell unbelievers: 'It is Allah I worship in sincerest obedience.’ Now, as far as you are concerned, 'Worship what you like besides Him.’ (39.16)

Since freedom of conscience—freedom to believe and to preach—is the cornerstone of religion, and repression of religious heresy is the aim of antireligious forces, the Quran lays great emphasis on the freedom of conversion. The last line of Chapter 109 of the Quran sums up the basic principle of a true religion. 'For you, your religion and for me, my religion.’ In an earlier passage (10.108), God refers to the same principle by asking a rhetorical question. Addressing the Holy Prophetsa, He says: 'If thy Lord had enforced His will, surely all those on earth would have believed, without exception? Will thou, then, take it upon thyself to force people to become believers?’ In the scheme of creation, man must have complete free will to believe or otherwise; there is no compulsion; a man must use his reason and understanding. After all, faith is a gift given by God to those He thinks deserve it.

Then the scriptures are false? The quotes are wrong? The question is, did those people live as equals, or were they enslaved, et cetera?

:analcanon: BLOOM, there it goes.

When the Holy Prophet conquered Mecca he didn't force anyone to convert and he didn't harm anyone. The Meccans were scared because they knew of all the harm they had caused the Muslims but they were assured that no harm would come to them. In fact Prophet Muhammad offered the Christians protection.

The Prophetsa, exalted by Allah to a position with no equal, showed his persecutors only unsurpassable love, mercy and forgiveness in return for their evil. When victory finally came and the polytheists of Mecca were subdued by the Prophetsa, he ordered a general amnesty. There was no massacre and no punishment for his persecutors. No arrests were made. No executions took place. Instead of retribution there was the Quranic proclamation: 'Let no reproach be on you this day. May Allah forgive you. He is the most merciful of the merciful.’

That day the cruelest of the cruel were pardoned. Those who had tormented helpless slaves on the burning sand were forgiven. Those who had dragged Muslims through the streets like dead animals were absolved. Those who had breached the peace were pardoned, as were those who had stoned defenseless Muslims—even the woman who had eaten the liver of the Prophet’ssa uncle.

source: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_1.html

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Okay, thanks guys.

But I do want to get back on topic just a bit.....


CUMMON, TAHIR! GOING OFF TOPIC LIKE THAT!

 

[Zé Tahir]

Okay, thanks guys.

But I do want to get back on topic just a bit.....


CUMMON, TAHIR! GOING OFF TOPIC LIKE THAT!

Pm me your thoughts when ever you have time (if you want).

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Ahhh, it's not that big of a deal.

It'd be easier just to call anyway.

 

[JCK]

Let's keep this civilized.

 

[Sadomin]

Happy Birthday Israel.