Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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just to make my self abundantly clear, i never claimed i know the ultimate truth, nor do i claim I'm the only right person in this entire thread and all other opinions are wrong however make no mistake i speak on my behalf, on what i believe, and what i want for my country. i lived here since 2001 and even though I'm leaving this country in the beginning of august I'm still on the ground. i know where every single street is in Cairo specially the ones that have these clashes, and more importantly i speak the language of this country. i participate in demo's and i see the numbers for what they are, and i hear the opinions of the people in these demo's. I'm born to two Egyptian parents who have taught me a few things that have been integrated into my gene's and who i am today and for that I'm grateful. amongst the things my parent raised me up to stand for are the following:
1- my country, even if there are times i hate certain things about its people, or even if i hate how behind from the rest of the world it is. i have a lot of passion for this country that i call home.
2- religion is a relationship between me and god, and no one what so ever can judge me except the all mighty. also they taught me, what i think is the best thing they ever taught me, and its respecting people of other faith whether they r Christians, Jews, Sunni, Shiaa, .....etc. I'm but a human being and have no right what so ever to base how i treat a person based on his/her religion. as long as a person shows me mutual respect then he/she deserves my utmost respect and love.
I've read some of the posts in the past three pages, from turk's opinion of how my mum a 53 year old was dragged down by me with out knowing the secret intentions of going down all the way to Ahmed's articles. off course i respect every one's right to do so, i don't own this thread make no mistake, and i def know this all too well. however I'd like people who seem to believe a very specific point of view to tell me how would they feel if they where in thier beloved countries and witnessed the beat of the street, and the clashes yet is being told by others no no no what you saw is Photoshop or no no this is a lie blah blah. I'd like them to tell me how would they feel if a group of people claiming that they represent islam and every one else is an infidel and insisting that thier countries army split like in syria, or begging ( i wont call it, "calling" bec that's giving these pest's an honor they don't deserve) foreign forces to invade there respective countries. how would they feel if their country is being dragged by the neck to the stone ages, where you r judged solely on your religion or faith, or back in time where women are just creatures to fuck, and deliver babies, and clean houses. think about it and before you post do put your self in my shoes.
with this off my chest, i'm blessed that most of the members in this thread who post don't post in agreement with my views bec they like me, or what not, but bec they understand the situation on the ground, they know what the Mb represents and they clearly understand why the people did what they did by removing the traitor named morsy. i call him a traitor bec he choose to sacrifice an entire country solely to remain in power! with no regard to the unity of the country or its national security. i call him a traitor bec he sent letters to the united states, russia, china, etc telling them to refuse the people's movement and in return he would agree to any of there wishes!! this isn't fabrication's all you have to do is listen to what his adviser of foreign affairs tweets, and says on CNN and off course Al-jazeerah. mr hadad doesn't seem to respect him self before respecting the passport of the country he represents.
i wont reply to any post in this thread, i will speak my view's the way i see things, if people want to take my view into consideration so be it, it will make me happy, that people are keen on knowing things on the ground. however as of today i wont go into debate, its easy to sit in your rooms out side egypt where its safe and peaceful and pass out judgements on my county men or there armed forces. its extremely easy to speak of human rights when you r home sleeping next to wife, and your children are perfectly safe and not attacked by the very people you all of a sudden sing songs of praise for or demand they have there full rights. niether are you the police officer or army solider in the street being attacked by clans with machine guns and expected to be in full restraint because there are some who will cry a river and act like victims!! like claiming they were praying when they started the attacks but when the amry moves in they turn into religious bastards and act like they r praying. a tactic that has been used over and over. i have zero respect for people who try to frame there armed forces, nor do i have respect for people who call on intervention from the very people he called infidels!! its shocking how the usa and isreal went from infidels, and apes to allies!! i will tell people here everything from an egyptain and i solely represent my self i never claimed to speak on the behalf of any other member here.
with that being said for those who want to understand what happened last night, here is what happened.
1- last night millions as you saw on tv went to the street to show there support to there armed forces. amongst them was me!
2- after the point was made, and every one both domestically and internationally toke note of the message we egyptains wanted to deliver to both the army and the international body. a group of Mb members moved from where there sit in is in nasr city and moved towards a bridge known as the 6th of october bridge. for people living aborad the 6th of october bridge is a massive bridge that connectes cairo to giza! as you can imagine its the main life line in cairo's traffic!! these mb memebrs wanted to close it and they were met with refusal from the police forces bec as of last night these acts will not be tolerated what so ever!!! they started throwing the police with stones and where met with TEAR GAS. there were armed members with machine guns, that started firing in a scene very similar to the attack on the republic guard earlier this month. 73 members where captured last night int hese events with there machine guns. there are eye witnesses from the buildings near there sit in that mentioned that members from the 95th group in the mb started getting on top of surrounding buildings. these members are snipers the exact same ones who were involved in the famous incident that toke place in cairo during the jan 25th rev. these events where photographed from the air by the military just like the ones in the republic guard.
NOTE: THE MB REFUSE TO THIS MINUTE TO ALLOW THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS THEY CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE POLICE FORCES TO UNDERGO AUTOPSY!! why?? bec only with autopsy can they prove if the victims where killed with police bullets or by other kinds of bullets.
in alexandria a group of mb members detained in one of the oldest mosques in alexandria, the QAD ibrahim mosque a lot of people that include activists where they were subjected to acts of torture and today units from the egyptain army broke into the mosque to resuce the people and once again the members of the mb gave in to the army and are now being detained.
these are the events that happened last night.
in a few hours i will post a collection of vid's, and pictures for all of you to see and its up to you judgement to choose what you want to believe.
finally my point of view is very straight forward and clear from day one. i support my countries right for a better and safer future, and i support my countries Armed force. no one in the army claimed terrorism was meant to the pro morsy supporters who are un-armed however any person regardless of his political alignment caught with an armed weapon, or terrorizing people will be met with brute force and the army has my complete support in this. i will not wait for some of these radicals who are filled with hate for what this country represents kill one of my loved one's and say oh they have the right to demonstrate or they have the right to carry arms. this will not be a haven for such people who are traitors in my book.
1- my country, even if there are times i hate certain things about its people, or even if i hate how behind from the rest of the world it is. i have a lot of passion for this country that i call home.
2- religion is a relationship between me and god, and no one what so ever can judge me except the all mighty. also they taught me, what i think is the best thing they ever taught me, and its respecting people of other faith whether they r Christians, Jews, Sunni, Shiaa, .....etc. I'm but a human being and have no right what so ever to base how i treat a person based on his/her religion. as long as a person shows me mutual respect then he/she deserves my utmost respect and love.
I've read some of the posts in the past three pages, from turk's opinion of how my mum a 53 year old was dragged down by me with out knowing the secret intentions of going down all the way to Ahmed's articles. off course i respect every one's right to do so, i don't own this thread make no mistake, and i def know this all too well. however I'd like people who seem to believe a very specific point of view to tell me how would they feel if they where in thier beloved countries and witnessed the beat of the street, and the clashes yet is being told by others no no no what you saw is Photoshop or no no this is a lie blah blah. I'd like them to tell me how would they feel if a group of people claiming that they represent islam and every one else is an infidel and insisting that thier countries army split like in syria, or begging ( i wont call it, "calling" bec that's giving these pest's an honor they don't deserve) foreign forces to invade there respective countries. how would they feel if their country is being dragged by the neck to the stone ages, where you r judged solely on your religion or faith, or back in time where women are just creatures to fuck, and deliver babies, and clean houses. think about it and before you post do put your self in my shoes.
with this off my chest, i'm blessed that most of the members in this thread who post don't post in agreement with my views bec they like me, or what not, but bec they understand the situation on the ground, they know what the Mb represents and they clearly understand why the people did what they did by removing the traitor named morsy. i call him a traitor bec he choose to sacrifice an entire country solely to remain in power! with no regard to the unity of the country or its national security. i call him a traitor bec he sent letters to the united states, russia, china, etc telling them to refuse the people's movement and in return he would agree to any of there wishes!! this isn't fabrication's all you have to do is listen to what his adviser of foreign affairs tweets, and says on CNN and off course Al-jazeerah. mr hadad doesn't seem to respect him self before respecting the passport of the country he represents.
i wont reply to any post in this thread, i will speak my view's the way i see things, if people want to take my view into consideration so be it, it will make me happy, that people are keen on knowing things on the ground. however as of today i wont go into debate, its easy to sit in your rooms out side egypt where its safe and peaceful and pass out judgements on my county men or there armed forces. its extremely easy to speak of human rights when you r home sleeping next to wife, and your children are perfectly safe and not attacked by the very people you all of a sudden sing songs of praise for or demand they have there full rights. niether are you the police officer or army solider in the street being attacked by clans with machine guns and expected to be in full restraint because there are some who will cry a river and act like victims!! like claiming they were praying when they started the attacks but when the amry moves in they turn into religious bastards and act like they r praying. a tactic that has been used over and over. i have zero respect for people who try to frame there armed forces, nor do i have respect for people who call on intervention from the very people he called infidels!! its shocking how the usa and isreal went from infidels, and apes to allies!! i will tell people here everything from an egyptain and i solely represent my self i never claimed to speak on the behalf of any other member here.
with that being said for those who want to understand what happened last night, here is what happened.
1- last night millions as you saw on tv went to the street to show there support to there armed forces. amongst them was me!
2- after the point was made, and every one both domestically and internationally toke note of the message we egyptains wanted to deliver to both the army and the international body. a group of Mb members moved from where there sit in is in nasr city and moved towards a bridge known as the 6th of october bridge. for people living aborad the 6th of october bridge is a massive bridge that connectes cairo to giza! as you can imagine its the main life line in cairo's traffic!! these mb memebrs wanted to close it and they were met with refusal from the police forces bec as of last night these acts will not be tolerated what so ever!!! they started throwing the police with stones and where met with TEAR GAS. there were armed members with machine guns, that started firing in a scene very similar to the attack on the republic guard earlier this month. 73 members where captured last night int hese events with there machine guns. there are eye witnesses from the buildings near there sit in that mentioned that members from the 95th group in the mb started getting on top of surrounding buildings. these members are snipers the exact same ones who were involved in the famous incident that toke place in cairo during the jan 25th rev. these events where photographed from the air by the military just like the ones in the republic guard.
NOTE: THE MB REFUSE TO THIS MINUTE TO ALLOW THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS THEY CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE POLICE FORCES TO UNDERGO AUTOPSY!! why?? bec only with autopsy can they prove if the victims where killed with police bullets or by other kinds of bullets.
in alexandria a group of mb members detained in one of the oldest mosques in alexandria, the QAD ibrahim mosque a lot of people that include activists where they were subjected to acts of torture and today units from the egyptain army broke into the mosque to resuce the people and once again the members of the mb gave in to the army and are now being detained.
these are the events that happened last night.
in a few hours i will post a collection of vid's, and pictures for all of you to see and its up to you judgement to choose what you want to believe.
finally my point of view is very straight forward and clear from day one. i support my countries right for a better and safer future, and i support my countries Armed force. no one in the army claimed terrorism was meant to the pro morsy supporters who are un-armed however any person regardless of his political alignment caught with an armed weapon, or terrorizing people will be met with brute force and the army has my complete support in this. i will not wait for some of these radicals who are filled with hate for what this country represents kill one of my loved one's and say oh they have the right to demonstrate or they have the right to carry arms. this will not be a haven for such people who are traitors in my book.
That was very moving Bisco, much love brother 
Showed that church sounding it bells for breaking of fast video to my co-worker, he is coptic and kind of got emotional , said it's his old church.
Showed that church sounding it bells for breaking of fast video to my co-worker, he is coptic and kind of got emotional , said it's his old church.
thank you all for the warm words and words of encouragement. i know your wishes are honest and i have a tonne of respect for you guys. thank you and i will do my best to keep you guys informed as much as i can 
@<a href="http://forum.juventuz.org/member.php?u=271" target="_blank">Osman</a>:
thats very sweet i'm sure he was touched it was a great gesture that gives people hope of tomorrow. in a bit i will write a post about the people in nasr city and hopefully this will shed some light as to what is going on and why there are clashes even though any sane person will know its a loosing war with an army and police force on one side and the people who last night showed there real numbers all over the country.
thank you all once again
god bless you.- - - Updated - - -
ok lets start
first things first: #‎Egypt‬ ‪#‎OpEgypt‬ | Attorney General prevent the burial of the victims of the violence yesterday without a full autopsy to know the types of shots.
i think this is very resonable and if they have been indeed killed by police or army bullets we will know.
here is a vid and please feel free to ask me any thing you like i will answer as honestly as i can i have nothing to lie about :
the ministry of interior announced they don't use rubber bullets but only tear gas, since i from the start promised to say everything this is un- true and i base this on a fb page that i trust and indeed there are some officers with the police who were indeed using rubber bullets ( there is a chance its sound round but i'm know expert on this and so for the mean time lets go with this until i find out more about this.) i will post the picture in the pic section bec i'm not good with how i post pictures in the reply section.
once again any questions you have no matter how silly you think it might be feel free to ask and i will answer if i know, if i don't i will check for more details.
secondly and more importantly i translated an article written in arabic for you to read, think of it as sth worth considering and thinking out. you might not agree but i call out for logical thinking and little common sense. when reading every line i write.
why yesterday?
today specifically, some muslim brotherhood had to die WHY?
so they can send a message to the world portraying the effect of Sisi's call for people to give him the mandate. and to protray it as a mandate to kill the muslim brotherhood in particular.
so how do muslim brotherhood get killed?
the way is easy and simple,
firstly: members and pro morsy youth carry white weapons ( knives, swords, etc), shot guns that fire tiny marbles ( forgive me i dont know it in english but this bullet doesn't kill you what happens is it releases some metal or rubber beads that penetrate your outer skin) and off course live ammunition. then go to close down a main road example the 6th of october bridge like i mentioned above ( sorry once again i couldn't get much stats but i will tell u details bec thats the bridge i take to my uni 5 times a week ) so block roads and drag the police and/or army into a clash and start firing on them so they return fire back at you ( in this case they r met with tear gas, at least until last night once again based on the picture i posted from the morning are different ( i will explain don't worry, i got info on why). so def when such clashes start there will be victims quite simply.
or if this doesn't become fruitful
clash with the police and from behind your own line ( the muslim brotherhood) snipe a few of your own ( exactly what happened when they attacked the republic guard!!, and this also backs eye witnesses who assured the police and army that there were people with guns on top of there roofs!!) amidst all this chaos and this way you stick it to both the police and army, the important thing there are people who fall dead. all this is orchestrated with ensuring al jazeerah is there live!! ( the only channel who manages to be on time in these events IDENTICAL TO THE CLASHES IN REPUBLIC GUARD WHICH HAPPENED AT 4 AM CAIRO LOCAL TIME WHAT R THE CHANCES!) this way you send messages to the western media and civil right organizations look they r killing us we r victims we r un-armed, by this you have framed the military and police and you emerge as a victim.
then we move on to another sinister plan. there is a video by ahmed mansour, and for people who don't know who he is, he is a leading egyptain reporter/commentator on al jazeerah with very close ties to the muslim brotherhood. according to his plan that was leaked ( its moments like this you have to stand loooong in front of Allah's verse in the quran " and they deceive and god deceives them behind there backs) any way in this video he states the following plan for the current situation:
you ( the muslim brotherhood) need to portray the situation domestically and internationally that this is a conflict between the real revolutionaries and the ex regime ( mubarak's regime) and that we should put our hands with each other again to combat this. we (the muslim brotherhood) come out and say YES we admit morsy was wrong, blah blah and we will fix our mistakes. you also give reasons for why violence is being used, and you say see, look at the mandate you gave Sisi he is killing us and we are innocent and peaceful people who are mis-understood. you then move on to rename the egyptain army and call them SISI's militia and we turn egypt into syria and we try to get blessing from isreal and the usa ( as if these two nations will go down this road with a country of egypt's size and weight in the region, just shows you the way of thinking) and by this we r returned back to power and the usa and isreal give us our blessings bec we will ensure there best interests ( i will discuss at length as soon as i get a chance bec as you can imagine i have very limited time bec i'm packing as i'm leaving egypt, but i promise i will write my opinion and the street's opinion regarding isreal since its a topic with a lot of fog on it)
i'm not telling you nor am i asking you to take this as sth written in stone but its worth thinking about. in a tiny bit, i will write a post regarding the muslim brotherhood sit in, and i am not basing this on tv, i'm basing this on things i've discussed and heard from people who live in this area they r sitting in ( in nasr city) and from people who actually know people who r there and what they r saying back, i've been blessed to have friends who r freelance reporters in western media and i will post what they told me. once again anything i write here is not written in stone, but do use your brains and give it a thought.
pictures to follow shortly.
p.s Alen let my spelling mistakes slip tonight
i've had a long day - - - Updated - - -
pictures
first picture: this is a picture of activist Ahmed thabet who was detained by the muslim brother hood in a make shift torture camp with in the Qaed ibrahim mosque ( vid will follow) and this is how he looks like after being rescued by army special forces this morning. needless to say the MB members who detained him are now under arrest.
second picture: if people are familiar with Sadat's assassination this is where he was assinated, and its also the memorial of the un-known solider ( a solider who got killed in egypts 73 war) this is the main road that leads to raba adaway if you r coming from Heliopolis. if you where to stand there facing the two visible minarets raba would be in front of you, and to your back would be the road that leads to the 6th of October bridge. i posted this picture and i ask, in which city in the world is such action allowed?? yet they wonder. not to mention this place is holy to us bec as i mentioned its where sadat and the un-known solider are buried.
third picture: these are police officers and apparently civilians who are with them, i know for fact the civilians holding fire arms are police and this is a scene very common with in the police force bec they are actually secret police but due to the on going battle they r carrying fire arms.
fourth picture: this is a picture of a detained citizen who faked being a police officer in yesterday's events. let me explain why he is fake
first of all last night and this morning events where between mb and central security forces and any 3 year old in egypt will tell you they wear black, not only this, the only police force who wear white are public police and they r not issued weapons and if they r its a small berta ( mind the spelling or the name it self but its a small hand pistol) this lovely guy was caught with a machine gun there is an important piece of information: today it was announced there will be an investigation on last night's events bec there is a lot of questions that need to be asked regarding this morning's battle where the police did fire rounds. so in the coming day or two we will find out more, also add in the autopsy of those killed in the past 24 hours. these are going to reveal quite a lot. i need to also be very clear, as if god is trying to give the MB a taste of there own medicine, amongst morsy's election promises, he promised the ministry of interior affairs will be corrected and after getting to office he like many other promises he made never fulfilled. the irony is there were activists who lost there lives whilst morsy was in power and the mb always called them thugs, armed robbers, and that the police never fires live ammunition etc look at how the tables have turned. off course make no mistake i'm not happy to see many people loose there life, at the end of the night its an Egyptian soul regardless ( even though i cant be a hypocrite if indeed the ones killed by the police where armed i have zero sympathy bec i put my self in the police officers place, if any one here is faced with live ammunition or any sort of weapon ( dont convince me you will be lucky guessing with some one firing sth at you) you would fire in defense its human nature doesn't take a genius.
update: 63 of the bodies have been autopsied, ten remaining and they should announce the results. I'm guessing pretty soon.
Attachments
Though i strongly disagree, at least you're making your point in respectable manner. Most of the times. What is unacceptable though, your attempt to justify more than 100 dead and 4000 wounded by using junta arguments. Game being played here is clear. Since Muslims are still main factor in elections, they should be dragged down streets. Shooting at crowd, incite rebellion, crush them with your tanks and jets like Assad is doing. Reshape the demography, live happily forever and ever. Your assumption of USA and Israel might choose an Islamic government over a secular one because that's best for their interest is simply unreal.
As for those clowns; I took you seriously even though i was aware of your intentions, i have tried to reason with you. Like it or not, i offered my view and all i got from you as counter argument were petty insults and retarded emoticons. From now on, your reactions worth less than a donkey's fart as you have less understanding than an animal. You're vile enough to make fun in a situation people suffering greatly. Call me bigot, as if you're not blinded by hate of religious, not able to respond without stupid jokes and insults, you are not even aware of it. Education takes ignorance away but you will remain as whelp if you born and raised that way.
Defending a coup: the American way
In his piece “Defending the Coup,” conservative New York Times columnist David Brooks does the opposite. “Islamists might be determined enough to run effective opposition movements and committed enough to provide street-level social services,” writes Brooks, “But they lack the mental equipment to govern. Once in office, they are always going to centralize power and undermine the democracy that elevated them.”
Before you ask who these mentally deficient Islamists are, Brooks lists them and highlights their unique culture: “It has become clear -- in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Gaza and elsewhere -- that radical Islamists are incapable of running a modern government. Many have absolutist, apocalyptic mind-sets. They have a strange fascination with a culture of death.”
No, it's not a conspiracy theory -- because that only happens among the mentally unequipped in the Global South -- this is well-respected journalism. They are everywhere, looting our “pure democracy” like rats, so dedicated to dying instantly. As you read about these freaks, I bet you remember the motto (quoted from Marx) in Edward Said's “Orientalism”: “They cannot represent themselves; they must be represented.” And yet, don't get excited, fellow Americans (especially those working in the military-industrial complex)!
Here is Brooks' caveat: “In reality, the U.S. has no ability to influence political events in Egypt in any important way. The only real leverage point is at the level of ideas.”
Yes, we are thankful to Mr. Brooks for his brilliant ideas, very well reflected in the aforementioned article. It wasn't so long ago, however, that conservative circles were raising a red flag over the issue and reporting on the US governments' active reticence. Philip Giraldi's March 2013 essay in The American Conservative, “Gulf States Buy Egyptian Riots,” may be the best example. Giraldi, a former CIA officer, noted the following long before the Egyptian coup: “So who is behind the unrest? The money fueling the confrontation comes from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, none of which are enamored of the Muslim Brotherhood or Morsi. They fear that the untidy democracy, such as it is, in Egypt and elsewhere amid the Arab Spring could spill over to their states, and they desire a return to something like the military-backed regime of Mubarak, which was politically reliable and dedicated to suppressing political extremism and even dissent in all forms. A government of national unity, backed by the army, that would give lip service to democratic institutions would be just fine.”
And how about our weak government, having brilliant ideas for mentally ill freaks but no influence at all? Well, here you go: “There is some sentiment on the US National Security Council and in the White House favoring a return to something like the Mubarak rule in Egypt, if that could be arranged 'democratically,' without sparking a wider conflagration.”
Now, Egypt is on the brink of a civil war, plunged further into chaos day by day.
Democratically arranged coup? Supporting Mubarak-type dictators through Gulf states' money? And, after all, brilliant ideas that defend the intervention, pouring from “objective” columnists?
Defending democracy is hard. It entails not only mental health but also a sincere heart.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-322027-defending-a-coup-the-american-way.html
Ikhwan after coup: ballot or bullet?
The Muslim Brotherhood (or Ikhwan), which has made major political gains in Egypt since the Arab Spring, is facing the most serious crackdown in its decades-long history after the army ousted the country's first democratically elected president in early July.
After the army forcefully removed Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Morsi from power, senior members of the country's oldest and largest Islamist organization were detained and its headquarters were ransacked and burned.
Members of Ikhwan, which has for many decades grown underground, had gained top positions soon after the Arab revolution.
It was the Arab Spring -- which occurred unexpectedly in the Arab world starting at the end of 2010 and created a domino effect, resulting in the fall of dictators in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya -- that brought Morsi to power.
In an effort to keep the movement at bay, Ikhwan was cracked down on hard during the eras of Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar El Sadat and Hosni Mubarak, who was overthrown in 2011 following the uprisings in Egypt, which is the birthplace of the movement.
During its history the group made several attempts to get involved in politics, however all these attempts failed and the group continued to grow underground.
Now the movement faces the risk of becoming radicalized as it has rejected being included in the political process that is being steered by the military junta.
Radicalization of the movement would be the worst scenario for the Arab country. Ikhwan should fight via the ballot box rather than taking up arms.
A few days ago, I had an interesting conversation with a senior Egyptian diplomat, to whom I asked: “Isn't the possibility of the radicalization of Ikhwan not a concern for you all?” The answer was terrifying. He said, “I would prefer Ikhwan to become radicalized then to allow Egypt to become like Iran.” He further added that “whatever the price is, we are ready to pay!”
In case Ikhwan radicalizes, Egypt, like Syria, would turn into a fertile ground for jihadist groups and al-Qaeda, which do not hesitate to transform countries into a proxy battlefield.
Yes, it is not a secret that the Muslim Brotherhood received a serious blow with the coup and needless to say that the movement's mistakes had played an important role in paving the way for the coup.
Last year, when I had interviews with the senior Muslim Brotherhood leaders in Cairo, what I observed was that these guys lacked a concrete roadmap for the future. However, to be honest, these guys were also not given much time to create such a roadmap. Indeed, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood example shows us that being in opposition is very different than being in power.
However, now that coup has happened, the only thing left for the Muslim Brotherhood to do is to be involved in the new political process rather than boycotting it. Ballot rather than bullets should speak in Egypt! Here, the responsibility does not only fall on the shoulders of Ikhwan but also of opposition and the new coup regime, which should avoid pushing Ikhwan out of the political game.
Indeed, the Middle East is the region of conspiracies and what I stated is the worst scenario for Egypt. I hope I will turn out to be in the wrong.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-321899-ikhwan-after-coup-ballot-or-bullet.html
How to depose an unpopular leader -- and how unpopular was he?
Arguments continue to flood political corridors, academic circles and social networks blindly insisting that what is unfolding in Egypt is not a coup.
The argument is that President Mohammed Morsi had lost everyone's support, and there was no way to get rid of him other than inviting a military coup. President Morsi certainly did not enjoy universal approval, but, in addition to all arguments refuting the "democracy through coup" delusion, the claim that a clear majority were against him is questionable. A PEW Poll (May 2013) showed views of Egyptians towards Morsi were: 53 percent favorable, 43 percent unfavorable. That is considerably higher than President Barack Obama and all EU leaders' approval ratings. Interestingly, his approval ratings were higher than all opposition leaders, his disapproval ratings lower than theirs.
Similarly for the demonized Muslim Brotherhood (MB), the argument claims that the coup was a response to an overwhelming popular rejection of the MB (and for some a conviction that they had to be pushed out of politics -- if not from existence altogether -- for Egypt's sake, as expressed in some disturbing chants celebrating their downfall such as "tonight, tonight, Ikhwaan no longer tonight!"). However, the same poll shows that views of the MB were 63 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable. That is indeed lower than the 75 percent who had favorable views of the MB in 2011, but for a movement in power, particularly after a revolution, the drop is certainly not surprising. Their experience in power has certainly had good and bad judgments. My aim, in highlighting these statistics is not to claim that President Morsi and the MB are faultless; we all know that is untrue. But their mistakes are political misjudgments, not crimes for which they should be excluded and persecuted, and should be addressed at the ballot box. Those who use "unpopularity" to justify the abortion of the democratic process and the invitation of a military coup should be worried in case that argument is used against them in the future. That applies to the opposition National Salvation Front (NSF) leaders whose approval ratings, according to the same survey, were not stellar, and, notably, below the man they wished to depose by coup (47 percent had unfavorable views of Hamdeen Sabbahi and 54 percent had unfavorable views of Mohamed Elbaradei) while we know it is certainly easier to be popular in opposition than it is in power.
Many academics and politicians who are not sympathetic to the MB, but are committed to democratic principles, had repeatedly argued that the experience of Islamists in power would lead to the erosion of their popularity, creating a better balance in the political scene. That hypothesis was sadly left untested by the suspension of the natural political process to test the MB's popularity in the next elections. This does not only deprive academics and observers from testing their theories, but more dangerously deprives Egyptians of the hard-won chance to exercise their right of holding their elected leaders accountable through the ballot box. This has dealt a fatal blow to belief in democratic means as the right means for expressing resentment and for political change. The grave consequences are already before our eyes, and I sincerely pray -- against all odds and all historical precedents -- that the elected president and constitutional order are restored and the democratic process is urgently resumed to avoid further disastrous consequences for Egypt.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-320315-how-to-depose-an-unpopular-leader-and-how-unpopular-was-he.html
As for those clowns; I took you seriously even though i was aware of your intentions, i have tried to reason with you. Like it or not, i offered my view and all i got from you as counter argument were petty insults and retarded emoticons. From now on, your reactions worth less than a donkey's fart as you have less understanding than an animal. You're vile enough to make fun in a situation people suffering greatly. Call me bigot, as if you're not blinded by hate of religious, not able to respond without stupid jokes and insults, you are not even aware of it. Education takes ignorance away but you will remain as whelp if you born and raised that way.
Defending a coup: the American way
In his piece “Defending the Coup,” conservative New York Times columnist David Brooks does the opposite. “Islamists might be determined enough to run effective opposition movements and committed enough to provide street-level social services,” writes Brooks, “But they lack the mental equipment to govern. Once in office, they are always going to centralize power and undermine the democracy that elevated them.”
Before you ask who these mentally deficient Islamists are, Brooks lists them and highlights their unique culture: “It has become clear -- in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Gaza and elsewhere -- that radical Islamists are incapable of running a modern government. Many have absolutist, apocalyptic mind-sets. They have a strange fascination with a culture of death.”
No, it's not a conspiracy theory -- because that only happens among the mentally unequipped in the Global South -- this is well-respected journalism. They are everywhere, looting our “pure democracy” like rats, so dedicated to dying instantly. As you read about these freaks, I bet you remember the motto (quoted from Marx) in Edward Said's “Orientalism”: “They cannot represent themselves; they must be represented.” And yet, don't get excited, fellow Americans (especially those working in the military-industrial complex)!
Here is Brooks' caveat: “In reality, the U.S. has no ability to influence political events in Egypt in any important way. The only real leverage point is at the level of ideas.”
Yes, we are thankful to Mr. Brooks for his brilliant ideas, very well reflected in the aforementioned article. It wasn't so long ago, however, that conservative circles were raising a red flag over the issue and reporting on the US governments' active reticence. Philip Giraldi's March 2013 essay in The American Conservative, “Gulf States Buy Egyptian Riots,” may be the best example. Giraldi, a former CIA officer, noted the following long before the Egyptian coup: “So who is behind the unrest? The money fueling the confrontation comes from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, none of which are enamored of the Muslim Brotherhood or Morsi. They fear that the untidy democracy, such as it is, in Egypt and elsewhere amid the Arab Spring could spill over to their states, and they desire a return to something like the military-backed regime of Mubarak, which was politically reliable and dedicated to suppressing political extremism and even dissent in all forms. A government of national unity, backed by the army, that would give lip service to democratic institutions would be just fine.”
And how about our weak government, having brilliant ideas for mentally ill freaks but no influence at all? Well, here you go: “There is some sentiment on the US National Security Council and in the White House favoring a return to something like the Mubarak rule in Egypt, if that could be arranged 'democratically,' without sparking a wider conflagration.”
Now, Egypt is on the brink of a civil war, plunged further into chaos day by day.
Democratically arranged coup? Supporting Mubarak-type dictators through Gulf states' money? And, after all, brilliant ideas that defend the intervention, pouring from “objective” columnists?
Defending democracy is hard. It entails not only mental health but also a sincere heart.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-322027-defending-a-coup-the-american-way.html
Ikhwan after coup: ballot or bullet?
The Muslim Brotherhood (or Ikhwan), which has made major political gains in Egypt since the Arab Spring, is facing the most serious crackdown in its decades-long history after the army ousted the country's first democratically elected president in early July.
After the army forcefully removed Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Morsi from power, senior members of the country's oldest and largest Islamist organization were detained and its headquarters were ransacked and burned.
Members of Ikhwan, which has for many decades grown underground, had gained top positions soon after the Arab revolution.
It was the Arab Spring -- which occurred unexpectedly in the Arab world starting at the end of 2010 and created a domino effect, resulting in the fall of dictators in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya -- that brought Morsi to power.
In an effort to keep the movement at bay, Ikhwan was cracked down on hard during the eras of Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar El Sadat and Hosni Mubarak, who was overthrown in 2011 following the uprisings in Egypt, which is the birthplace of the movement.
During its history the group made several attempts to get involved in politics, however all these attempts failed and the group continued to grow underground.
Now the movement faces the risk of becoming radicalized as it has rejected being included in the political process that is being steered by the military junta.
Radicalization of the movement would be the worst scenario for the Arab country. Ikhwan should fight via the ballot box rather than taking up arms.
A few days ago, I had an interesting conversation with a senior Egyptian diplomat, to whom I asked: “Isn't the possibility of the radicalization of Ikhwan not a concern for you all?” The answer was terrifying. He said, “I would prefer Ikhwan to become radicalized then to allow Egypt to become like Iran.” He further added that “whatever the price is, we are ready to pay!”
In case Ikhwan radicalizes, Egypt, like Syria, would turn into a fertile ground for jihadist groups and al-Qaeda, which do not hesitate to transform countries into a proxy battlefield.
Yes, it is not a secret that the Muslim Brotherhood received a serious blow with the coup and needless to say that the movement's mistakes had played an important role in paving the way for the coup.
Last year, when I had interviews with the senior Muslim Brotherhood leaders in Cairo, what I observed was that these guys lacked a concrete roadmap for the future. However, to be honest, these guys were also not given much time to create such a roadmap. Indeed, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood example shows us that being in opposition is very different than being in power.
However, now that coup has happened, the only thing left for the Muslim Brotherhood to do is to be involved in the new political process rather than boycotting it. Ballot rather than bullets should speak in Egypt! Here, the responsibility does not only fall on the shoulders of Ikhwan but also of opposition and the new coup regime, which should avoid pushing Ikhwan out of the political game.
Indeed, the Middle East is the region of conspiracies and what I stated is the worst scenario for Egypt. I hope I will turn out to be in the wrong.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-321899-ikhwan-after-coup-ballot-or-bullet.html
How to depose an unpopular leader -- and how unpopular was he?
Arguments continue to flood political corridors, academic circles and social networks blindly insisting that what is unfolding in Egypt is not a coup.
The argument is that President Mohammed Morsi had lost everyone's support, and there was no way to get rid of him other than inviting a military coup. President Morsi certainly did not enjoy universal approval, but, in addition to all arguments refuting the "democracy through coup" delusion, the claim that a clear majority were against him is questionable. A PEW Poll (May 2013) showed views of Egyptians towards Morsi were: 53 percent favorable, 43 percent unfavorable. That is considerably higher than President Barack Obama and all EU leaders' approval ratings. Interestingly, his approval ratings were higher than all opposition leaders, his disapproval ratings lower than theirs.
Similarly for the demonized Muslim Brotherhood (MB), the argument claims that the coup was a response to an overwhelming popular rejection of the MB (and for some a conviction that they had to be pushed out of politics -- if not from existence altogether -- for Egypt's sake, as expressed in some disturbing chants celebrating their downfall such as "tonight, tonight, Ikhwaan no longer tonight!"). However, the same poll shows that views of the MB were 63 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable. That is indeed lower than the 75 percent who had favorable views of the MB in 2011, but for a movement in power, particularly after a revolution, the drop is certainly not surprising. Their experience in power has certainly had good and bad judgments. My aim, in highlighting these statistics is not to claim that President Morsi and the MB are faultless; we all know that is untrue. But their mistakes are political misjudgments, not crimes for which they should be excluded and persecuted, and should be addressed at the ballot box. Those who use "unpopularity" to justify the abortion of the democratic process and the invitation of a military coup should be worried in case that argument is used against them in the future. That applies to the opposition National Salvation Front (NSF) leaders whose approval ratings, according to the same survey, were not stellar, and, notably, below the man they wished to depose by coup (47 percent had unfavorable views of Hamdeen Sabbahi and 54 percent had unfavorable views of Mohamed Elbaradei) while we know it is certainly easier to be popular in opposition than it is in power.
Many academics and politicians who are not sympathetic to the MB, but are committed to democratic principles, had repeatedly argued that the experience of Islamists in power would lead to the erosion of their popularity, creating a better balance in the political scene. That hypothesis was sadly left untested by the suspension of the natural political process to test the MB's popularity in the next elections. This does not only deprive academics and observers from testing their theories, but more dangerously deprives Egyptians of the hard-won chance to exercise their right of holding their elected leaders accountable through the ballot box. This has dealt a fatal blow to belief in democratic means as the right means for expressing resentment and for political change. The grave consequences are already before our eyes, and I sincerely pray -- against all odds and all historical precedents -- that the elected president and constitutional order are restored and the democratic process is urgently resumed to avoid further disastrous consequences for Egypt.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-320315-how-to-depose-an-unpopular-leader-and-how-unpopular-was-he.html
still awaiting to hear the final report of the autopsied bodies of the sad events that occurred late on friday and extended to the early hours of the next morning. the general atmosphere at the moment is, sad and many have released messages of deep concern on the performance of the police forces. for a second lets put a side any framing intentions aside ( there is evidence and no one is claiming there are were no individuals trying to portray this out of context) i have several question marks on the interim governments choice of keeping the current minister of interior, a man who this government inherited from morsy's time. a fact remains however you look at it, the mb are reaping the fruits of ignoring this main issue, whether when revolutionaries where being hunted one by one in the famous mahmoomed mahmoud incidents, where the Mb acted like by standers whilst they were in power, and off course the ministry of interior was great and needed no change in there frame what so ever. i wont say they deserved it bec as i came out to find from interacting with a few who actually support morsy some are there genuinely to show there support, however few or many they may be of the total present in rabaa. some are naive and loyal not thugs or trouble makers, but are sent by the head's of the sit in's for political gains a move any one who read's or knows about the MB will tell you its in there gene's. still no argument regarding use of force against those who use it make no mistake the two are very different. there are some opinions the army should've been the one's there instead of the police, but i dont share this sentiment, the armies job is not in main land egypt but on the out skirts of the cities and mainly in sinai which is being wiped out of terrorism figures day after day and progress is finally visible.
today the presidency has issued the pm power to issue the police and army a like powers of detaining of terrorist or violence seeking individuals. is it necessary i guess time will tell, although truth be told there is slight reservations on this at least thus far no one has come out and spoken about this in public in a clear way at least from the activists side.
amongst other things, i have a massive reservation of how the army handles its media issues! i'm sorry at this stage you r not only dealing with the domestic public who are aware of what's on the ground not to mention have easy and abundant access to information. there are severe short comings in there speech towards the international community, i expected the army will at least release there written statements in both arabic and english not to mention i think all there press conf need to be sub titled this is no longer an egyptain affair but has been international from day one and it was expected. i hate al jazeerah yes, i think they r biased pricks who have an agenda they r serving but i'd rather the army do its job and instead of countering jsc performance domestically only where its effect is weak!! they asked the people to stand by there side and they got that from the start and up until the 26th of july its now there turn to act professional in the media sector for themselves to ensure the international community gets to know the facts as they are. i would also encourage if they pull a gulf war 1990 move by allowing foreign press to go along with them in terrorist combat missions so they can portray the true events of what they r up against in sinai and also what they r up against with mb members who are armed and show up during any signs of potential to market there "we r victims of brutality"
i'm encouraged by the fact some Egyptians don't want the mb to be completely dissolved after the dust settles down ( i'd rather they are involved politics out in public than go under ground bec its when they go under ground we see the ugly face of this ideology) , but like them i think new strict rules need to be implemented via the law system. meaning i think political groups with religious back grounds in a country that is not entirely muslim or has various schools in islam represent timed bomb's and play on vibe's that not necessarily take the country as a whole forward. time's have changed that's evident but if we r to be a respectable country law's should be implemented and any citizen from the pres to the youngest citizen should be held accountable for his or her actions.
today the presidency has issued the pm power to issue the police and army a like powers of detaining of terrorist or violence seeking individuals. is it necessary i guess time will tell, although truth be told there is slight reservations on this at least thus far no one has come out and spoken about this in public in a clear way at least from the activists side.
amongst other things, i have a massive reservation of how the army handles its media issues! i'm sorry at this stage you r not only dealing with the domestic public who are aware of what's on the ground not to mention have easy and abundant access to information. there are severe short comings in there speech towards the international community, i expected the army will at least release there written statements in both arabic and english not to mention i think all there press conf need to be sub titled this is no longer an egyptain affair but has been international from day one and it was expected. i hate al jazeerah yes, i think they r biased pricks who have an agenda they r serving but i'd rather the army do its job and instead of countering jsc performance domestically only where its effect is weak!! they asked the people to stand by there side and they got that from the start and up until the 26th of july its now there turn to act professional in the media sector for themselves to ensure the international community gets to know the facts as they are. i would also encourage if they pull a gulf war 1990 move by allowing foreign press to go along with them in terrorist combat missions so they can portray the true events of what they r up against in sinai and also what they r up against with mb members who are armed and show up during any signs of potential to market there "we r victims of brutality"
i'm encouraged by the fact some Egyptians don't want the mb to be completely dissolved after the dust settles down ( i'd rather they are involved politics out in public than go under ground bec its when they go under ground we see the ugly face of this ideology) , but like them i think new strict rules need to be implemented via the law system. meaning i think political groups with religious back grounds in a country that is not entirely muslim or has various schools in islam represent timed bomb's and play on vibe's that not necessarily take the country as a whole forward. time's have changed that's evident but if we r to be a respectable country law's should be implemented and any citizen from the pres to the youngest citizen should be held accountable for his or her actions.
The more I read, the more I get the impression that the MB fucked itself over in 2011 when it rooted out most of the reformers and let the old guard hardliners run the show with zero sense of collaboration, cooperation, and consensus-building. It sounds like there's a lot of dangers in the few reformers still within the MB being polarized to the side of Morsi given the violence -- and therein lies the long-term peril of both sides not diffusing the situation.
But for all the reformers who left the MB by 2011 knowing what was to come, I hope they could play a constructive and organizable role in all of this.
Stay strong, Bisco.
But for all the reformers who left the MB by 2011 knowing what was to come, I hope they could play a constructive and organizable role in all of this.
Stay strong, Bisco.
beat me to the punch swag!! that is indeed accurate as can be, and was going to be the topic my up coming post revolved around. excellent point
thank you bro
thank you bro
But that's a common theme to the frailties of any human organization - whether religious, political, charitable, business, or whatnot. The people who found organizations almost ultimately get marginalized by the newer generations of recruits that they bring in that organization as it grows. It becomes a battle of new ideas vs the old ones. And sometimes it becomes so extreme as to oust the founders who have come to create it.
That's not always entirely a good thing. But in the case of the MB where the society around them was changing so much, continuing to reject ideas such as party pluralism and women's rights puts the entire organization at odds with the majority of the society.
I guess this is what Aboul-Ela Maadi called the "great theft", when the MBs viability hinged on how well the reformers could modernize the organization from within.