Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (15 Viewers)

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,485
Rough stuff. But if the military doesn't keep things in check, this could backfire. They need to avoid seeming the aggressors at all costs here in order to maintain any credibility and to keep the MB support from swelling up.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
Rough stuff. But if the military doesn't keep things in check, this could backfire. They need to avoid seeming the aggressors at all costs here in order to maintain any credibility and to keep the MB support from swelling up.
true!! they need to do a lot of hard work, and more importantly they need to avoid un fruitful confrontations, the other side is not easy and are very tricky and cheeky and i can go a tad far and say they r evil so a lot of restraint is needed, and i think in all fairness they need to allow human right watch groups stand with the military during encounters so they can be witnesses along with foreign media. the difference between the mb and the army is in this crystal point. people trust the army, the international community doesn't and this is why the mb excel they portray the victim card internationally, they couldn't care less about the domestic side ( in my book that's treason but in politics its being cunning) so the army need to up there game and prevent giving the mb space to maneuver. the mb have lost a massive chunk of there support thus far, playing into there trap will put the army on the same side.
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,852
Victim card? Of course it's their fault if they die. They were Tusken Raiders anyway. Those Tuskens walk like men, but they're vicious, mindless monsters. True victim here is the junta, even though they overthrew the elected president, arrested hundreds and killed even more. None of these would happen if people would choose a secularist, co-operative president instead of a Muslim. Since people are not qualified enough to make right decision and govern themselves, new strict rules need to be implemented via the law system. Muslims should be banned from participating in elections, even though they are %80 of the population. It's quality over quantity.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
the countdown is in progress already and the clash is coming courtesy of the MB. let me explain the situation as things stand now. as expected the mb are willing to market there sick philosophies no matter what. today a group of 8 year old girls and boys where paraded with stuff like martyr in the making, if they were really men and know god like they claim women and children should be allowed to move out if a confrontation is what they want, as sickening as this it proves the army are in a confrontation with chickens who are willing to sacrifice children who know nothing about why they r there!!! off course make no mistake the head's of the mb hiding like cowards amongst there supporters will not even give a fight and tomorrow you will see they will be caught a live. they r all good at heating up people, lying to them by giving them false hope they r fighting for a cause ( i'm dying to explain to all of you what there sit in consists of but i'm busy ramadan really kills the day) or lying to them by telling them they r having a having a war for islam!! any ways today the sit in in rab3a has been announced as a threat to national security and there is nothing peaceful about it, how is it peaceful with them breaking the pavements and building road blocks in an area of cairo known that its military property!! not even private or public property. any ways i think the show down can be avoided if the mb choose to accept the reality that stands today nearly a month after morsy was removed or they give in to the reconciliation talks that will be sponsored by the EU in the coming day or two i guess. if they refuse and i think they will the confrontation to bring an end to the terrorizing we r witnessing in this spot in cairo will come to an end and i think it will not be what many think it will be a huge blood shed mark my words the mb will back off they r trying to see if the military will call there bluff.

note: yes not every one in there sit in carries weapons but, there individuals with in the sit in that have weapons. the latest stunt is they started moving around gas canisters towards possible entries for the army entrance.

note: popular islamic scholars are calling on mb to back down and avoid confrontation by bringing an end to this.

note: several organizations are calling on the mb to avoid bringing an end to any chance of having a future with in egypt.

if a certain some one tells me but this is not allowed i suggest we watch how when things get out of hand ( in egypt its lvl100000000 out of hand in nasr city) the police goes in and brings order.

to be clear there wont be any political group what so ever with arms its simple as that. long are gone the days of political groups with a tiny army and i think its fair.

update: noticeable decrease in numbers present in nasr city sit in. i hope this is a good sign to an end to this show down where there is no winner but a massive loss for the mb in lives and any sort of political future. and the head's will be joined with there beloved morsy.

- - - Updated - - -

until i get to writing about the details of the mb sit in, here is an account that paints a pretty close picture of what goes in there:

worth a read for sure.

http://www.madamasr.com/content/account-torture-rabea
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
who exactly is in the mb sit in, currently present in nasr city? ( note they have a second sit in, at one of Giza suburb's ( much smaller sit in) and they have there share of violence however nothing comes close to the main sit in in nasr city)


Nasr city is a massive neighborhood in east Cairo, however the sit in is at a tiny intersection marked by a mosque called the rabaa, el adewya mosque and hence this intersection which isn't a square gets the name. now this rabaa traffic light is actually the entrance to the neighborhood and hence the biggest issue with having this sit in, in that area. also there is a road that leads to this intersection called el-nasr road ( literally means the victory road in reference to the 73 war) on this nasr road you have a few important land marks of extreme importance. firstly you have the stand where Sadat was killed in October of 1981, right in front of this spot is a memorial for both Sadat ( he is actually buried there) and the un known solider are buried. behind the memorial is Cairo international stadium and conference hall's and behind the stand where the assassination toke place is the national security branch of nasr city ( a compound with an UN-pleasant history during the Mubarak era) parallel to nasr road is a road that has what is believed to be army barracks but off course no one knows exactly but to put it in simple terms its military owned and hence the issue.

now we come to who exactly is there. now obviously members of the MB who came from nearly all of Egypt's provinces bec they were targets and rejected from these cities and hence toke refuge there, you def have pro morsy civilians, and you have people who are anti morsy but also anti coup, and you have poor citizens who find salvation in these very dire economical conditions the country is in and off course its Ramadan and i will get to those later.

i'll start off with the mb members, and these include main players within the hard line group leading the mb and off course has the supreme leader of the Muslim brotherhood. it also has members of the council group. then you have the mb regular members and they can be considered the foot soldiers and serve no purpose in the decision taking of the sit in. why r they all there? and where exactly are they? now obviously they choose to be in the street over there after several key members of the mb specially the hard line leaders where detained, specially the second in command kayert el shater was detained along with the head of the freedom and justice party the political arm for the mb. so they r in side and protected by there own security and the fact there are angry people surrounding them and so no harm or no chance for them to be arrested in these circumstances. as for there where a bout's well according to military sources they know where exactly they are. you need to know there are informers with in them and it's how things work, the Muslim brotherhood has been infiltrated on so many level's and so its not hard to know exact locations. there were reports that the top heads where divided on two locations, one being the mosque it self which was turned into a make shift residence for these top head's and is tightly guarded. ( the mosque is big so off course a certain area was allocated to them) and another group has been identified to be in one of the residential flats looking on the intersection at one of the mb members personal residence.

the pro morsy group are mainly civilians who come from Cairo and other provinces and due to piss poor luck i suppose they cant go back to there provinces since the mb uses private buses to bring them from there provinces to demonstrate. what usually happens is, the buses bring them and at the end of the night usually around 8 these buses go back to the cities they come from. the problem here is, these bus owners have been subject to attacks by anti morsy groups, and hence choose the lesser of two evil and avoid any affiliation with the mb like the plague. its also a known fact the mb pays all expenses such as traveling expenses, and they give them pocket money and meal's thru out the day so these poor civilians are actually there with no way to go back home and this plays in the MB's favor. also the pro morsy civilians come from different back grounds, some have minimum education and so literally buy the dream that is been told them from the main stand in rabaa, whilst others are firm believers thanks to the mb top head's constant preaching that should they leave the square they will be detained ( off course its un true bec there were people who managed to leave before the shit hit the fan and they were only subject to physical checking on there way out to ensure no one came out with any sort of weapon and the vid's are on youtube). off course there are people that have been convinced that this is actually against Islam to the degree, a foreign reporter who was allowed to wander around and interview people ( sth that is banned for any Egyptian tv or news paper reporter!!) and what caught my eye is one of the people she asked, answered her that he was here bec Azan the call for prayer will be banned in Cairo and so this is unislamic!! to this degree and i kid you not this is also on youtube.

now we get to the the anti coup people, these represent people with good education, and usually come from middle class families and they have concerns about being returned to the old days of mubarak. they refuse the military whole heartily and hence show support to morsy. i think the reality is starting to sink in and they will be the ones to leave or indeed some left over the course of this week.

the poor, people tend to forget a few facts about Egypt and how things work with the MB. the mb is a social institution on paper and only and i repeat only during the need do they catch up on there social activities like providing health care, food supplying, and other social services of the kind however when there are no election the well runs dry ( part of the reason the poor where in the front lines against them bec they quickly caught on the game and that they r being used for specific reasons like votes) now after a year of morsy we have been destroyed economically despite slight improvement over the past month but make no mistake people are getting it hard, and in Ramadan expenses increase dramatically in any Egyptian family, so i can only imagine how hard it must be for people with very low income ( sometimes close to zero) and this fact played right into the hands of the mb now they serve meals for people to break there fast's and once again the reporter who was allowed to wonder was shocked at people telling her straight out, its ok if morsy doesn't return as long as we still have this sit in we couldn't care less. this is how the mb works through out its history its using the magnet of religion and the magnet of people's need's and as ugly as it might seem it works and you cant blame the people either ( also this is exactly the reason why only a delusional person will buy that the mb will improve education or the economic well being of people, if they do, no one would vote for them and hence why these two issues where nearly UN-touched specially the education sector that is from the stone age's. mubarak made sure people where taught what prevents them from thinking hmm why r things this way, add to this the fact life is hard in egypt so a normal civilian barely has time to think about politics bec he has mouths to feed, the exact same thing happened with morsy and was going to continue thats how you keep a leash on your population, even though mubarak got raped by the internet age in Egypt the MB didn't catch up on the lesson even though they wanted to "censor the internet from porn a line i've heard numerous times and know full well, this is smart talk for banning what doesn't sit well with us"

now bec i ride taxi's as i don't own a car, i meet people from several part's of Cairo. some come from middle class area's and some come from old neighborhood's like sayda zaineb, boluq etc and these neighborhoods are very different to middle and rich neighborhoods in Cairo, in these neighborhoods people are closely knitted, and usually know each other from birth and so every one knows every one and a secret usually doesn't stay a secret for very long time. according to several taxi drivers i rode with ( at least 5 told me the exact same things) there are people from there neighborhood's who are hired/paid by the MB according to what they bring to the table. now if you have a gun you get paid the most per day plus a break fast meal and late night meal! ( when i say gun i don't mean your regular type of gun i mean under the stair way made guns) if you come to the table with a thick wooden stick/sword/knife you move into a lesser pay grade but get two meal's. these people once again due to dire condition's go with the philosophy in mind, things are hard and they r paying so why not!! (NOTE: THIS IS HEARSAY AND SO ACCURACY MAY VARY HOWEVER THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE DETAINED IN EVENTS THAT OCCURRED SINCE THE 30TH WHO CONFESSED TO THIS)


remember the funny pictures of people wearing body Armour and kind of lookED like the ninja turtles? well these are mb members or the foot soldiers. its no secret there are members of the mb with guns that range from shot gun with metal bead's to machine guns. according to robert fisk who was allowed to wonder around he was escorted by one of them and states clearly while they claim they are unarmed he was escorted by a guy carrying a Kalashnikov. any one who read's the history of the mb will know there biggest problem with any Egyptian government is the fact they have a military section or a tiny army which is trained and has weapons. i say this bec its not by coincidence the armed forces and police forces seize piles of weaponry entering the country the latest being this week where a cargo coming from turkey was caught in the harbor of port said, and two land cruiser jeeps where stopped coming in from the western borders of Egypt near the city of marsa matrouh which is west OF Alexandria.


there have been bodies, with clear marks of being tortured found littered around the rabaa intersection in what is believed to be people who might have been suspected to be infiltrators/thieves or people who simply wanted to leave. if the blog entry i posted above is anything to go with, i think these are people who objected on certain calls made by the main stand in this sit in which has specific responsibilities that I will come too in a minute. i cant confirm these reports however i can confirm the fact these bodies where found with obvious torture marks.

within the sit in there is a make shift hospital which until the clashes dealt with people getting sick due to fasting in this heat. i need to point out the Egyptian ministry of health in these demonstrations is considered neutral and they r sadly the most occupied people over the course of the past three years. now there are massive criticisms pointed out at the mb and i think they are very valid. how things work even during the roughest nights in tahrir is as follows. clashes erupt people get injured, people carry injured person to nearest ambulance, ambulance rushes to hospital that is on the ready for such injures. regardless of sides this is how it worked. with the events of nasr city the mb insisted that the injured go into there make shift hospital which is not prepared what so ever to handle the wounded, let a lone have surgeries and this is in particular why the death toll actually increased!!!! this is also why i referred to that night as the night of marketing yet another situation of "oh look at us we r victims" what good would it be if the dead bodies where not lined up for portraying to the media?!? what would al jazeerah broadcast? some wonder why the dead where taken there instead of the ambulance taking them to the hospitals to identify them and reach there families? its a detail open for various analysis and i wouldn't blame people for reaching certain conclusions which at best stink.

we come to the final piece that makes rabaa what it is, this piece is perhaps the main setting and its the main stand/stage. this stage serves various purposes such as, announcements, lectures, news, propaganda, etc. there are various spokes people and usually they r hand picked. of all the spokes people there are three very significant ones.

1- mohammed badie who was brought into the sit in via an ambulance and whilst wearing a burqa to avoid being detained on his way to the sit in due to intense police check points. ( rumor has it the army gave him the chance to bring an end to this, and he did in fact promise but later on broke his promise just in time for cnn to broadcast his speech live) mohammed badie for those who don't know is the supreme leader of the Muslim brotherhood.

2- mohammed el beltagey, a prominent member of the muslim brotherhood and one of those who is responsible for coming up with dreamy speeches like " morsy will be with us on Sunday ( that was last sunday) and his famous speech where he openly stated that once morsy is reinstated terrorist attacks in Sinai will be halted in what is a clear indication this was per-planned and explains why morsy was giving away prison exemptions like crazy bec guess where did these people go?? Sinai and not the touristic destinations of Sinai but northern Sinai which is a hot bed for terrorists some of which come via the tunnels ( hence my objection on the tunnel fiasco)

3- safwat hegazi, now no one is as despicable as this man. no matter what he does he has the word hypocrite written all over his face. he is one of the main if not the main spokes person responsible for pushing the people to get into loosing confrontations with the army, police, and even the people. on numerous occasion's he stated that who ever splashes morsy with water we ( mb or pro morsy) will splash him with blood. he is a scholar even though i seriously doubt he is but over the past few years being an islamic scholar went from being a job for god and educating the public of there religion to being a job for the dollar or fast money hence the deterioration in what comes out in the name of religion. he is not considered mb per say however he is one of there main allies. i cant stress enough on the fact he openly insulted shiek's and scholars from the ultra conservative group ( salafists) for not choosing to side with the mb in this crisis and instead opted for the spilling of blood and choose to side with the people ( fact the ultra conservatives where always regarded by the mb as a threat more than an ally even though in numerous occasions they were seen as allies but once morsy came to power the honey moon was over with the first ministry given to the mb. need to point out that salafists by nature are not as violent or bloody unlike there distant cousins the jihadi salafists who consider the mb infidels mind you. the two share the salafi part but ideologically are very different even in belief's)


yes i admit there are people in the rabaa sit in who are used, there are people in rabaa who by the dim reality have no choice to stay whether for financial reasons or even personal safety reasons. there are also people who whole heartily support morsy and are willing to offer them selves as martyr's. while there is a group of people who are simply being mislead with empty promises and wrong under standings of the reality they live in ( note many of these are starting to realize this)

the biggest suffers of all this, are non other of the residents of the buildings in rabaa!!! they live in a disaster!!! its very un safe for them, they have been on phones pleading for some one to help them bec its become unbearable on the human level to live. imagine having timings as to when you can get out of your house and return to your own house!! imagine how its un safe for your wife or daughters to go down!! imagine the fact you r being used as a shield by force feels more like you r a prisoner, and imagine the fact there are old citizens who have to hear there non sense on loud speakers all day long and thru the night!! these people have filed complaint after complaint and are awaiting salvation. not only the direct residents of the buildings looking at rabaa intersection but the entire nasr city neighborhood is suffering due to traffic obstruction's and the simple fact its unsafe.


the removal of this sit in is a matter of time, and the Muslim brotherhood with no regard to the safety of there own people seem to be rushing towards this clash they know they will loose!! this begs the question, where are the children of the top head's of the mb?!?! where are morsy's own children?? off course they don't participate!!! only the poor and brain washed with lies give there life for morsy a president who will never return to the palace, and the entire world has taken this is a reality after last Friday's massive demonstrations.

these people who claim to be representing Islam forget sth of massive importance and its, the holy prophet preached by being an example, so even in battles he was always in the front line's he never hid behind others. here we have men who call for jihad and preach night and day about the heaven that awaits these "martyr's" yet he him self is unwilling to sacrifice his own life or his son's lives, let a lone stand in the front line of confrontations. i wrote in my post earlier that i can bet any one here the top heads will be caught a live in fact they will hand them selves in. days will prove this to every one.

the main loss in all of this, is the simple reality there might be people who will loose there life and for what? a human who has proved his failure and gambled on there very life from the start. a person who choose the throne of Egypt over the well being of its people and national security, a person who has no problem with this countries less fortunate being the price in blood and souls. the mb has lost the very affection that brought them to power, they have lost the creditability and more importantly they have lost any chance for redemption and reconciliation with the Egyptian street. they still have a dim chance to save the very existence of this group but should they go into the confrontation i can safely say they lost. always put in consideration the bigger picture, Egypt is the birth place of the mb, and the fact the mb is getting it rough in Tunisia now after the Tunisians them selves saw how the people managed to remove the main branch from power so they have everything to loose ( in reference to the mb).

finally i hope this gives you guys an insight as to what is the rabaa intersection or sit in. i tried my best to type all the accounts i heard from people and the information i read and gathered about the mb, there history, and how they work. once again this post is not written in stone however its a very close picture to the reality as i see it, and as many in Egypt see it.
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,852
The wrath of the streets

It seems like what happened in Egypt is unique to that country, thus it's very difficult to understand what is really going on there and to learn from it. We need to discuss a new situation whose effects will be felt throughout the region.

What we have before us is a new term that has recently been marketed in the international markets: a "good coup" or "legitimate coup." This new term ignores the electoral success of undesired governments. Moreover, it legitimizes overthrowing elected governments by force. And in seeking to achieve their aims, the coup plotters used every available opportunity of "public support" and media power. In Turkey, which suffered great tragedies from military coups, one can easily say that "there is no such thing as a good or bad coup." But how can you explain to the people of a country in which there is no established culture of democracy that a coup is first and foremost a crime against humanity?

In order to gain legitimacy, the plotters of the good coup first seek to secure the support of the people. There is great risk at this point. Although social engineers manipulate the people into protesting in the streets, no one can foresee where these protests will lead. According to the new theory, people don't have to wait for elections. We should look at Egypt, Tunisia and the Middle East from this perspective and try to guess what will happen next. The people rush to famous squares and election results are swept aside. Means of mass communication are used to forge public opinion and legitimize the good coup.

Over the last week, Egypt's military regime decided to implement a never-before-seen strategy and encouraged its supporters to take to the streets. In other words, they have declared that they will pit civilians against one another. This strategy cannot be the result of a moment of anger, because 26 days have passed since the coup. The country is under the military's control. And supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi are continuing their protests in certain areas. It's as if the Egyptian generals were saying, "If the Morsi supporters insist on protesting us, then we will pit our supporters against them and put them in their place.” As a result, 200 people have lost their lives and more than 5,000 people have been injured. Is it possible to treat this deep wound? Won't the Egyptian people continue to suffer from this atrocity for decades to come? Why?

There are several reasons, but the most important result of manipulating people in the Middle East into taking to the streets is the undermining of Islamic political groups' belief in democracy. Even if this isn't their primary goal, it will be the consequence. It's crystal clear that pro-Islam parties are unwelcome in some parts of the world. This is why some countries where democracy is fully established are warm to the idea of the good coup. This is why the military regime in Egypt wasn't satisfied with seizing the government and went a step further, preferring to eliminate social groups they consider dangerous by pitting people against one another. In this way, the regime aims to push promising political groups toward illegality in order to undermine the legitimacy of people who do not surrender to the junta.

All countries in the region should closely follow each step of this staged scenario. In fact, a similar scenario is playing out in Tunisia. The assassination of opposition politician Mohammed Brahmi paved the way for the Tunisian opposition to rush to the streets and protest. We should now try to find out who planned these incidents to get people into the streets.

It is known that coup plotters have always used street demonstrations as a tool to lay the groundwork for coups. Those who wage psychological warfare and want to create the conditions for coups pit the people against one another. Painful experiences in our recent past are the best examples of this. Now we face another situation: In addition to shady operations to get the masses out on the street and pave the way for a coup, the coup administration is settling scores with those who don't surrender to the junta in the streets by pitting coup supporters against them. The street demonstrations that lay the groundwork for coups are part of a plan; pitting the people against one another after the coup might be part of this plan as well. This is why those who act without premeditation and without considering coup plotters' strategy are not only risking their lives but also inadvertently helping those who want to prevent the democratization of the Islamic world. We need to act with great care and patience. We need to consult each other before taking action.

Acting according to the pulse of the people in the streets is the worst decision to make and will have heavy consequences. In order to deal a blow to coup plotters who want to control the Islamic world through new totalitarian regimes, we should act within the democratic and legal systems, avoid social conflicts and object to all illegal actions regardless of their excuses. This is only possible with qualified staff. Those who have been exhausted by infighting cannot achieve this.

It is certain that the wrath of the streets will devour the tyrants, but until that day comes we need to defend innocent people's rights and make it through this critical process without too many problems.
http://todayszaman.com/columnist-322100-the-wrath-of-the-streets.html

Ikhwan teaches democratic lesson

President Mohammad Morsi, who came to power as the first democratically elected president in Egypt, has been ousted by a military coup after one year in office.

Morsi supporters -- the Muslim Brotherhood -- poured into the streets in most cities of the country to protest the military intervention. As you may remember, Morsi made a call for his supporters to resist the coup without resorting to violence. This call raised concerns that the move could set off violent clashes. True, bloody days began, but it was the blood of Muslim Brotherhood members, spilled by the coup makers. On Saturday, Ikhwan leaders announced that they would not rely on violent methods or killing even though hundreds of protestors have been killed.

This is truly admirable. Despite attempts by Defense Minister Gen. Abdel Fattah al-Sisi to justify the coup and lure Ikhwan into clashes, Ikhwan is teaching the world a lesson in democracy by relying on civil disobedience and peaceful protests. Ikhwan has a hundred-year history. Two of its important leaders were killed; it is a movement that generally subscribes to civilian and peaceful methods despite sporadic bouts of violence. For this reason, we shouldn't exaggerate Ikhwan's mature attitude too much. But we should confirm that they are showing a fairly commendable democratic stance in Egypt -- and under tough conditions.

The psychological threshold for coups is one month. In other words, if protests don't cease after a month, it becomes hard for the coup to take root. This critical threshold is almost over in Egypt, and this is why Sisi is authorizing violence against Ikhwan supporters: It is his only way out. In this way, the injustice of the coup will be forgotten and the irrational and violent tendencies of “Muslims” will be proven to the coup-supporting Western world. Of course, after this point, violence will be called a method to protect democracy because “Ikhwan left us no other option.”

It would be irrational to categorize the West as coup-friendly because of its pragmatic preference regarding Egypt and to create a new kind of anti-Westernism out of this. Unfortunately, there are frequent clashes between realpolitik and the universal rules of democracy. And Western states justify anti-democratic policies by using media power to convince their people. This happened again when the latest massacre in Egypt was presented as a clash between Sisi and Morsi supporters.

I previously argued that the East and West should overcome 20th century paradigms in their relations with each other. The West should abandon its colonial paradigm and approaches, and the East should no longer view the West as a demon. The West saw the democratic efforts of Muslims in Egypt and Turkey through an outdated lens; this was a huge mistake. For this reason, in the Gezi crisis and Sisi coup, they adopted an unethical stance and made categorical assessments.

In the Gezi crisis, they tended to use the protests in an attempt to prove their biases. Because of this attitude, the Turkish public may become less open to even constructive and reliable criticism.

It's good to see that religious people in Turkey and Egypt are practicing democratic values rather than resorting to violence. They stay away from these traps. This is a source of hope for our common future.
http://todayszaman.com/columnist-322107-ikhwan-teaches-democratic-lesson.html

The royal baby and the Egyptians

As the world turns we continue to witness news, good and bad, from all around our planet.

Last week it was not only the people of the United Kingdom but also that of the rest of the world which waited for the birth of the newest member of the royal family with excitement and curiosity. People bid on the gender, name and even the hair color of the future monarch of the country. And the royal baby finally came on Tuesday. It was a boy! The next day the beautiful family picture of Prince William, his wife Kate and their then unnamed boy made the headlines again all around the world. The frenzy was not over when his name was announced as George, but at least slowed down.

Meanwhile in Egypt, the commander-in-chief of the military, Gen. Sisi, asked the supporters of the military coup to rally against the “violence” in the country. Since the military had overthrown the first democratically elected president of the country, Mohammad Morsi, on July 3, his supporters have filled Cairo’s Adawiya Square in particular to protest the military coup.

Despite all, the West refrained from calling the coup a coup and almost turned a blind eye to the will of the Egyptian people. In the early hours of Saturday, the army opened fire on civilian Morsi supporters in the country. At the time of this post’s writing, the death toll was at least 200 while thousands were injured. Yet the world remained silent. Western media fall short of reflecting an unbiased account of the events in Egypt. The BBC, for example, told its readers on its website early on Saturday that “more than 100 people have been killed at a protest by supporters of ousted Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi in the capital Cairo, doctors say,” without referring to the brutality and the unlawful actions of the military.

I cannot help but think that not much will change and that justice will not be served so long as the world pays more attention to a royal baby than the killing of hundreds of people in the Middle East or in other less developed parts of the world. We live in such a West-centric world that the life of a royal baby is considered more valuable than maybe the total of the peoples of the Middle East.

Fortunately, Turkey will have a proud record at least in terms of defining the events in Egypt as a military coup and unacceptable while the majority of the world remains indifferent, to say the least.

One of the highlights of last week was an ad that appeared in The Times daily against Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. In short, the letter, signed by 30 prominent individuals, including celebrities such as Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon, condemned the police brutality during the recent Gezi Park protests in Turkey. That is fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and leading figures can be concerned about events taking place anywhere around the world.

Although I suspect that they have hardly any idea about what actually happened in Turkey, I can see why they wish to react against police brutality. We all did. However, their letter not only fails to mention the violent nature of the protests in Turkey but also likens the supporters of a democratically elected political party to Nazis.

Every life that was lost during and after the Gezi Park protests is valuable. The pain of the families of the victims will be permanent. But it is at the very least unethical to connect all five lives lost -- some of which were lost after Erdoğan’s rallies -- to people who gathered in those rallies. Excessive use of tear gas and violence by the police should definitely be investigated, but the ad in The Times simply mixed apples and oranges by raising concerns about the Kemalist nature of the state. Indeed, it is only ironic to criticize Erdoğan, who has a highly personal style of governance, as a dictator while making a reference to the most oppressive era in modern Turkish history, namely the 1930s.

Now, given those celebrities’ high sensitivities for human rights and in the face of the massacre in Egypt, I wonder whether they would be willing to place an ad in a leading Western newspaper to condemn the coup in Egypt and ask for the restoration of democracy.

Western double standards become even more painful when the values we aspire to are the Western values and the world has no better option than Western liberal democracies, which only seem to care about the well-being of their own people.
http://todayszaman.com/blog-322041-the-royal-baby-and-the-egyptians.html

Now applaud the coup makers of Egypt!

This call is not to Saudi Arabia or the Gulf states which pay no attention or value to democracy or the dignity, honor and human rights of their peoples or even human life. Allah made them persecutors and tyrants who inflict continuous torture on their people by depriving them of the courtesy of respecting the most fundamental rights and freedoms of the people they govern.

It is not reasonable to expect that those who stay reluctant and disrespectful to the democratic rights and demands of their people would become sensitive to the legitimate demands of other people.

For this reason, this call is to the European Union authorities, the leaders of EU countries and the entire West, including the EU and the US. It is meant for the leaders of the countries who arguably pay the greatest attention and value to democracy, human rights, rule of law, accountability, civilian administration and freedoms. My call is to those who measure the prestige of each country by reference to democratic criteria, universal law and fundamental rights and freedoms.

Please feel free to applaud zealously the Egyptian generals who conducted a coup and massacred people in its aftermath. You should do this because this is what consistency requires. You should applaud these coup makers because you have your fingerprints on the trigger mechanism of every gun pointed at civilians deliberately. You should applaud the generals who conducted a coup and massacres because every bullet taken out of the body of a wounded or murdered civilian protester was purchased by the US dollars and euros you gave the coup makers.

Feel free to applaud them because this is the natural outcome of your affinity with the coup makers and the bandits who coercively ousted a democratically elected leader and arrested him. Even your reluctant responses to the repeated questions by Today's Zaman's representative in Brussels, Selçuk Gültaşlı, “Won't you define what is happening in Egypt as a coup?” alone require that you should applaud the bloodthirsty coup makers. This is the natural outcome of your failure to call a clear military intervention staged against a legitimate and democratically elected government a “coup.” Applauding the foreseeable massacres of the “preferred” coup makers is the natural outcome of this.

Do not contradict yourself; be consistent. Just congratulate your beloved coup-making generals, the painters of this horrific picture drawn by blood, before the blood spilled from the bodies of 200 civilians and 5,000 wounded people fades away. Shake their bloody hands. Hug them tightly and congratulate and honor your heroes for their courage to aim their weapons on the foreheads and chests of the unarmed and harmless protesters.

In a statement Friday, US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said: “The law does not require us to make a formal determination ... as to whether a coup took place, and it is not in our national interest to make such a determination.” I am sure that the same laws do not prevent you from applauding the coup maker generals that you supported by virtue of the sacred American interests which are so important that the lives of millions could be sacrificed. So come on Pentagon, the US State Department and even the White House; get up and zealously applaud what happened in Egypt.

Besides, considering that US State Secretary John Kerry hesitated to make even a miniscule reference to condemnation in his statement where he defined the developments leading up to the horrible massacres as a “pivotal moment,” at least you should feel free to appreciate what these general did. Given that Washington does not want to cut the flow of $1.3 billion to the coup maker generals in Egypt, you should also support this action by applauding these generals.

The European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, who failed to call the coup in Egypt a coup in her statement, at least “deeply deplores” the deaths during demonstrations in Egypt and urged all sides to halt violence. Ashton who, in addition to failing to condemn the massacres, equates the coup maker generals with the victims by calling on “all sides to halt violence,” should feel extremely free to applaud the generals who committed massacres if there is still a shred of consistency on the streets of Brussels.

Even though he condemned the massacre and the perpetrators, Britain's Foreign Secretary William Hague, who failed to place an emphasis on democracy during the coup in Egypt, did remain reluctant to distinguish the bandits and coup makers from the innocent civilians whose most basic democratic rights had been violated and taken away. Instead of such a timid approach, he should have applauded the coup maker generals for the sake of some consistency.

Had the clear and consistent attitude of Turkey, which has experienced extreme pains and sufferings in its near past due to the harms by the juntas and the coups, vis-à-vis the coup maker generals since the beginning of the coup in Egypt been pursued by all civilized and allegedly democratic states and institutions, do you think that these massive massacres committed indiscriminately would have taken place anyway? I do not think so. For this reason, those who still fail to openly criticize and condemn the coup makers of Egypt that committed massacres and spoil these generals by encouraging them indirectly and giving a green light to their actions should not be hypocritical; for the sake of avoiding hypocrisy, they should at least strongly applaud these generals.
http://todayszaman.com/columnist-322105-now-applaud-the-coup-makers-of-egypt.html
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
Bisco mate, I know it water under the bridge now with everything that happened but i always wondered if there was a notion to form a constuti on of sorts or a draft before the election? to limit or prevent some of the moves taken by the mb once they get in power or was it not valid/seen as an option?
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
Bisco mate, I know it water under the bridge now with everything that happened but i always wondered if there was a notion to form a constuti on of sorts or a draft before the election? to limit or prevent some of the moves taken by the mb once they get in power or was it not valid/seen as an option?
this is indeed what will happen, to avoid any group of people taking us hostage the same way the pricks did when they wrote a constitution that didn't represent all parties that make up Egypt. already a panel of 10 major constitutional experts and judges are drafting the new constitution. then it will be presented to the different parties if they would like to add sth, then people vote for it and we move on from there.

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p.s if the turkish are fascinated by the mb we r willing to give them to you guys for FREE!!! we can pay you money to take them and you can all applaud how peaceful and angelic they are :)
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,852
this is indeed what will happen, to avoid any group of people taking us hostage the same way the pricks did when they wrote a constitution that didn't represent all parties that make up Egypt. already a panel of 10 major constitutional experts and judges are drafting the new constitution. then it will be presented to the different parties if they would like to add sth, then people vote for it and we move on from there.

p.s if the turkish are fascinated by the mb we r willing to give them to you guys for FREE!!! we can pay you money to take them and you can all applaud how peaceful and angelic they are :)
Will it be presented to israel as well? Because if they don't agree, what your people say doesn't matter.

Our doors are open for those who escaped from cruelty of pharaohs. They are welcomed here, like the 500,000 Syrians came in last 2 years and even more Kurds when they ran from Saddam.
 

icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
34,981
this is indeed what will happen, to avoid any group of people taking us hostage the same way the pricks did when they wrote a constitution that didn't represent all parties that make up Egypt. already a panel of 10 major constitutional experts and judges are drafting the new constitution. then it will be presented to the different parties if they would like to add sth, then people vote for it and we move on from there.

- - - Updated - - -

p.s if the turkish are fascinated by the mb we r willing to give them to you guys for FREE!!! we can pay you money to take them and you can all applaud how peaceful and angelic they are :)
Will the MB be part of it? Considering they do have some support, it'd be interesting to see how the new constitution is drafted with/without their input.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
Will the MB be part of it? Considering they do have some support, it'd be interesting to see how the new constitution is drafted with/without their input.
including the mb, should they agree to reconciliation and legalizing there group, so its in sync with egyptain law's.

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Will it be presented to israel as well? Because if they don't agree, what your people say doesn't matter.

Our doors are open for those who escaped from cruelty of pharaohs. They are welcomed here, like the 500,000 Syrians came in last 2 years and even more Kurds when they ran from Saddam.
yes off course!!! isreal has to give us blessing for constitution, that's how we pharaohs roll nowadays :D the only thing of concern between Egypt and Isreal is the peace treaty and there is no issues regarding that.

yup please take them, they r 500,000 too and will add a lot to your country with how peaceful and democratic they are :) and they r muslim's like no other muslim out there. :tup:
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,852
including the mb, should they agree to reconciliation and legalizing there group, so its in sync with egyptain law's.

yes off course!!! isreal has to give us blessing for constitution, that's how we pharaohs roll nowadays :D the only thing of concern between Egypt and Isreal is the peace treaty and there is no issues regarding that.

yup please take them, they r 500,000 too and will add a lot to your country with how peaceful and democratic they are :) and they r muslim's like no other muslim out there. :tup:
Then keep rolling until your time is up. :tup:

Why don't you guys go to a referendum on joining israel as vassal? By doing so, you don't even need think about a new constitution or holding elections. Sisi of Mossad, the national hero, would have stay in his post as governor. Those who oppose would have been decimated even faster, like in Palestine. They have white phosphorus and stuff like that to keep things balanced in region. Most importantly you were intruders in the promised lands which belong god's chosen people.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,981
Then keep rolling until your time is up. :tup:

Why don't you guys go to a referendum on joining israel as vassal? By doing so, you don't even need think about a new constitution or holding elections. Sisi of Mossad, the national hero, would have stay in his post as governor. Those who oppose would have been decimated even faster, like in Palestine. They have white phosphorus and stuff like that to keep things balanced in region. Most importantly you were intruders in the promised lands which belong god's chosen people.
Nah, it took us 40 years in the desert, a rain of frogs and god killing every egyptian family first born son to get out, We ain't going back there!

Other then that, your grasp on reality is so weak it's scary. Do you really think Turkey will take any mb rafugees in? the only reason Erdogan is standing by your peeps over there is because he is scared shitless that the same thing will happen to him, which with your country history he got every reason to be.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
Then keep rolling until your time is up. :tup:

Why don't you guys go to a referendum on joining israel as vassal? By doing so, you don't even need think about a new constitution or holding elections. Sisi of Mossad, the national hero, would have stay in his post as governor. Those who oppose would have been decimated even faster, like in Palestine. They have white phosphorus and stuff like that to keep things balanced in region. Most importantly you were intruders in the promised lands which belong god's chosen people.
sisi of mossad :lol: ok what ever floats your boat. shame you r missing out on a good man :tup: keep thinking he is mossad man :lol:
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,852
Other then that, your grasp on reality is so weak it's scary. Do you really think Turkey will take any mb rafugees in? the only reason Erdogan is standing by your peeps over there is because he is scared shitless that the same thing will happen to him, which with your country history he got every reason to be.
Should they come here, there is no other option then accepting them in. They would eventually return to their country stronger than before. But junta want them keep locked, hanged if possible. They're trying hard to frame them. You can hate Morsi but accusing him of being a spy :lol: That Mubarak picture is good finding btw. I didn't know that fucker too, is a member of brotherhood. Not the Muslim one.

As for Turkiye, don't worry. 'Harmful elements' in army have been wiped out. Now they are closer to values and belief of the nation.

Head of army, breaking fast with private soldiers. 10 years ago's unimaginable is today's reality.



sisi of mossad :lol: ok what ever floats your boat. shame you r missing out on a good man :tup: keep thinking he is mossad man :lol:
To be honest, i had my doubts. I wasn't sure if he was a traitor or deceived, until seeing this

"I urge the people to take to the streets this coming Friday to prove their will and give me, the army and police a mandate to confront possible violence and terrorism"

Not only mobilized his rabid dogs called 'baltageya' against people but also massacred them just because they were standing there to oppose military coup.

Such a good man he is. Good as much as the thief, stealing your car infront of your eyes, when you scream 'hey, where are you going', he is turning back and smashes into you.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,384
muslim brotherhood acknowledge new interim president and request guarntee's :) yes this is a cheeky smile because it was coming.

sisi is a man held in high regard, he saved the country unlike some one :)

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Jul 2, 2006
18,852
muslim brotherhood acknowledge new interim president and request guarntee's :) yes this is a cheeky smile because it was coming.

sisi is a man held in high regard, he saved the country unlike some one :)

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smile because of what? They were evil because they didn't recognize coup government, now they are cowards because they don't fight?

what a great man, saved the country from its people.

As i said, this is breaking point between west and east. They choose to turn blind eye, they will have no right to say anything for the events yet to happen.

The West is exporting violence

One of biggest massacres of the modern age occurred in Rabaa al-Adawiya Mosque Square.

Civilian, unarmed and defenseless people were deliberately targeted by snipers. The massacre was carried out by security officials of the state. This is not opening fire on the rallying crowd; this is a systematic massacre in which security officials, like hunters, targeted and killed certain people. With this method, the military rule seeks to suppress the opposition and keep the society under control.

What does this correspond to in the civilized world? Under normal conditions, the coup perpetrators must be tried for the offense of massacre. The history of universal human rights -- which are also called "Western values" -- for the past 30 years tells us that there is no other option. Such a widespread violation of human rights cannot be regarded as a mere domestic matter of a country. International institutions must take action and implement a number of sanctions including intervention. But that is not the way it works. Coup perpetrators are so confident that they openly threaten to conduct similar massacres in order to intimidate the opposition. This is because the West's human rights world does not show any serious reaction. No one moves a finger about the massacre in Cairo. A whole heritage of ethical principles and achievements is collapsing. The human rights century is coming to such an abrupt end. The universal principles and institutions of human rights are going bankrupt.

The Egypt coup and its wake have reinforced among Muslims the belief that the West's principles of human rights and democracy are hypocritical. These universal rules are not valid among Muslims.
If Western societies stop classifying Muslim people according to their religion and start to employ humanitarian criteria, then they will realize the profound disappointment in the Muslim world. The dictatorial rules are killing human beings, not the practitioners of a specific religion. The Arab Spring was nothing but a quest for democracy and freedoms. It would enable Muslims to meet the rest of the world in terms of universal human values. The support the West is lending to coup perpetrators instead of democracy is creating a profound feeling of deception and humiliation. Worse still, what will be the reactions and attitudes created by this feeling? The answer to this question is important not only for Muslims, but also for the entire world. This is because the number of channels by which this feeling can be expressed without resorting to violence and rage is decreasing. If the massacres of the coup perpetrators continue, how long can the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) keep its supporters away from violence? How long will it be possible to prevent violence from begetting violence?

The daily violence in Iraq is taken for granted and seen as a mere remnant of the US occupation. Syria is a cradle for new organizations that adopt civil war and violence as their method. No one is doing anything to stop the civil war in Syria. Loneliness, helplessness and fear of death; these are the primary feelings of the Middle Eastern people. The quagmire of violence is spreading in this geography. Al-Shabab's attack against the Turkish Embassy in Mogadishu should give a terrifying idea about the rationale of this quagmire. The victims of this attack are Muslims, and the volunteers who seek to help Somalis are facing death.

This picture clearly indicates a quagmire in which violence will inescapably take root. The West must realize that this quagmire, which it ignores because of its diplomatic interests, poses a great threat directly to itself. By turning a blind eye to human rights violations, the West is exporting violence accompanied by a profound sense of helplessness to the Muslim world.
http://todayszaman.com/columnist-322194-the-west-is-exporting-violence.html
 

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