Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (27 Viewers)

[Ford Prefect]

 

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[Enron]

Kitten Caboodle.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The spiritual world is separate from the physical one. I believe a person chosen by God to deliver his message can spiritually communicate.

"Spiritually communicate"? Sounds like hocus-pocus to me.

If you really believe in prophecies, then you should believe in Krishna too, right? He did fulfil the prophecy of being the the 8th son of Devaki who would go on to kill King Urgasena.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Your soul is not physical though. When you pray aren't you trying spiritually "communicating"? It's not something you do face to face physically or over some sort of physical device.

No that's fine, I don't intend any malice either.

I am a Muslim who has accepted the reformer of the age; the 2nd coming. He didn't bring any new laws (i.e. Torah, Bible, Quran) but came with the same message which people had begun to go astray from. You're not the first one to think we (Ahmadi's) are non-Muslim though. We're persecuted in many countries and declared non-Muslim by law in Pakistan...something that's against Islamic teachings which goes to show the current state of Islam.

Yes it is a spiritual act because we use that nature. Yet the spirit is part of the whole that we encompass. So therefore it takes place in the same plane. It is like veils that are slightly moved. When the spiritual veil is moved the psychical world gets a glimpse of that reality hence miracles and supernatural wonders. Prayer and meditation are a conduit between these veils

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Just so you know how I and probably others feel, seeing you two talking about spirits and the spiritual world is like seeing 2 men talking about the elephant in the room.... which actually is not there.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

BTW, how could I not notice the similarities in the names Brahma and Abraham before!

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Just so you know how I and probably others feel, seeing you two talking about spirits and the spiritual world is like seeing 2 men talking about the elephant in the room.... which actually is not there.

just so you know for one who says he is seeking, the truth is you do not seek, you mock , ridicule and your mind was made up long ago. You are not seeking you don't really want answers about faith all you want is a chance to take shots at people who believe, and frankly it disappoints me I didnt expect it from you

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

just so you know for one who says he is seeking, the truth is you do not seek, you mock , ridicule and your mind was made up long ago. You are not seeking you don't really want answers about faith all you want is a chance to take shots at people who believe, and frankly it disappoints me I didnt expect it from you

I've made up my mind on the system upon which I will base my beliefs on. I've come to the conclusion that a faith-based belief system is neither rational nor practical. I've adopted the evidence-based belief system, which is practically what the world around us is based upon. And I try to stay consistent with this belief system, and try not to have double standards in my belief system.

So yes, I'm not really seeking answers about faith or answers based on faith. You may like to call it 'ridicule', but all I'm doing is calling it as I see it.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

I've made up my mind on the system upon which I will base my beliefs on. I've come to the conclusion that a faith-based belief system is neither rational nor practical. I've adopted the evidence-based belief system, which is practically what the world around us is based upon. And I try to stay consistent with this belief system, and try not to have double standards in my belief system.

So yes, I'm not really seeking answers about faith or answers based on faith. You may like to call it 'ridicule', but all I'm doing is calling it as I see it.

Calling as you see it? While you jest at the expense of those who believe different than you? Tolerant I see

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Calling as you see it? While you jest at the expense of those who believe different than you? Tolerant I see

I jest at a lot of things. Religious beliefs being one of them.

Why is it intolerant? I'm not asking you to stop expressing your beliefs or forcing you to subscribe to mine.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Calling as you see it? While you jest at the expense of those who believe different than you? Tolerant I see

Tolerance and acceptance are different things. Probing a belief system and asking it prove itself falls under neither. Peer review is vital for any form of rational development to take place, if you can't defend yourself maybe you should question why.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Tolerance and acceptance are different things. Probing a belief system and asking it prove itself falls under neither. Peer review is vital for any form of rational development to take place, if you can't defend yourself maybe you should question why.

Good point. It's the reason why I feel religious criticism has become sort of a social taboo. I sense this from some friends and co-workers when I start questioning them about their beliefs. Their defences pop up immediately in the form of body language, facial expressions, change of tone in their voice, and the excuses they state to stay away from discussing them(for ex. everyone has the right to believe what they want; all gods are actually the same, so it doesn't matter; and the all famous discussion-ender: it's all about faith). I usually tend not to push them anymore as I don't want to jeopardize the relationship we have. And when I do, it results in me feeling really bad for doing it(Tahir and Andrea for ex). But I see how it works in the favour of people of faith and faith itself.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Tolerance and acceptance are different things. Probing a belief system and asking it prove itself falls under neither. Peer review is vital for any form of rational development to take place, if you can't defend yourself maybe you should question why.

probing a belief system is one thing, asking honest questions with mature debate, but once ridicule and jest come into play it is neither serious probing nor is it tolerant

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

But it is a means to make you take a step back and realize how ridiculous your beliefs are. The intent is not malicious, it's not to cause harm or pain.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

But it is a means to make you take a step back and realize how ridiculous your beliefs are. The intent is not malicious, it's not to cause harm or pain.

that is an arrogant statement at best the fact that you say that, just shows how you look down upon me and all the rest on this forum and world who believe different than you

 

[Martin]

that is an arrogant statement at best the fact that you say that, just shows how you look down upon me and all the rest on this forum and world who believe different than you

Do you think people who believe in aliens are ridiculous? Psychics? Unicorns?

Somewhere we all draw the line in our minds between what's believable and what's pure fantasy.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

@AC: This is exactly the kind of response I was expecting from you after that post. "What? You're calling my beliefs ridiculous? How dare you do that?! How dare you call my beliefs ridiculous?!". That is your arrogance preventing you from accepting our criticism and analysing and review your beliefs and instead attack the person who's criticising your beliefs. Time and time again we've shown how the basis of your beliefs are weak, fallacious, and realistically impossible. Yet you continue to believe in such irrational stuff. We ridicule you hoping that you'd take a step back and take a look at what we pointing out as wrong. But you never listen!

 

[AndreaCristiano]

@AC: This is exactly the kind of response I was expecting from you after that post. "What? You're calling my beliefs ridiculous? How dare you do that?! How dare you call my beliefs ridiculous?!". That is your arrogance preventing you from accepting our criticism and analysing and review your beliefs and instead attack the person who's criticising your beliefs. Time and time again we've shown how the basis of your beliefs are weak, fallacious, and realistically impossible. Yet you continue to believe in such irrational stuff. We ridicule you hoping that you'd take a step back and take a look at what we pointing out as wrong. But you never listen!

what your doing isnt criticism Sheik. Proper critical thought doesnt include insults, and ridicule. Analyzing something is and actual discussion and look at the situation, not calling it ridiculous, and fantasy and the believers names., All your above premises are only how you see my beliefs while others understand what I am saying. You and the doubters never listen, we the believers do not call you or your beliefs names or jest about them. Look at Ze Tehir and I we had proper debate. You and your merry men just laugh and call people and there beliefs derogatory names, so no im not arrogant your just immature in your debate

---------- Post added 09.03.2012 at 15:19 ----------

Do you think people who believe in aliens are ridiculous? Psychics? Unicorns?

Somewhere we all draw the line in our minds between what's believable and what's pure fantasy.

I dont ridicule people for their beliefs two of my friends are wicca thats what they believe then that is what they believe who am Ito mock or judge

 

[Martin]

So you've never thought to yourself "that's ridiculous" about something someone has said they believe? Then you are the most uncritical person in the world, and also the most thoughtless one.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

So you've never thought to yourself "that's ridiculous" about something someone has said they believe? Then you are the most uncritical person in the world, and also the most thoughtless one.

never ridiculous, no have I wanted to understand how they come to the belief and discuss it with them yes, but for me ridiculous implies stupidity so I dont mock and assume a person is stupid and they deserve ridicule hence ridiculous meaning that it is deserving of ridicule