Did loverboy get it right? (3 Viewers)

[Seven]

I think Hijabs have to be an individual thing, like that teacher trying to indoctrinate kids (the consequences should be for that teacher, not hijabs in general), but hijabs in general should be allowed all over IMO.

In general yes, definitely. I mean, if a woman is wearing a hijab while sitting on the bus, that doesn't really affect anyone. But in school situations or when we're talking with government officials (who have to be 100% objective), I think it might not be such a bad idea to tell people they have to leave the hijab at home. In all fairness it's a bit of an exaggeration anyway to say that, as a woman, you feel exposed when people see your hair. Some compare it to being completely nude, but it is obviously not the same.

 

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[Osman]

But I would think people would have gotten used to hijabs by now, that its nothing comprising or controversial at all. The stereotypical negative connoations should have worn of by now, and be a more casual part of a minority religion (in Europe, west). It totally defeats the purpose of having an hijab if you are taking it off for work.

 

[Seven]

But I would think people would have gotten used to hijabs by now, that its nothing comprising or controversial at all. The stereotypical negative connoations should have worn of by now, and be a more casual part of a minority religion (in Europe, west). It totally defeats the purpose of having an hijab if you are taking it off for work.

It's getting worse every day. And not because people hate muslims. Far from. It's the fact that some muslim girls use it to talk about Islam. Which is not too bad, you can talk about what you want, but some of them are very, very verbal. It's not about expressing your religion anymore, it's about being part of a social group.

So it's creating difficult situations. I'd say it's far more of a problem now than it was five years ago. And one of the things is that there you see far more hijabs and burqahs in Belgium now than you did a while back.

 

[Fred]

There are two issues here.

First, women's freedom to wear whatever they want. The people who think this freedom is more important than other issues, I would like to know how deeply committed you are to this principle. Do you really believe they should wear whatever they want? Do you support bikinis as well? If the women around you decided to wear bikinis would you champion their freedom?


The second issue is more difficult, and it has to do with female oppression. You see, just because you ask a woman wearing a burqa if she feels free and she tells you yes isn't very convincing. Why not? Because we as people adapt to whatever situation we encounter. To someone who's always lived like this it feels completely natural, how would they know that there is another way? See, we know this because we've had a feminist movement. There was a time in the not too distant past when women in Europe were being oppressed. If you'd ask a woman in the 50s whether she feels happy staying home with the children and having no prospects of a career, she would also say yes. How could she not when noone else was doing anything different? But today's women, who have come far towards gender equality, they would reject that "yes" because it's coming from someone who doesn't know that there is another way to live. In fact, they would reject their own "yes" from years ago as uninformed.

People rationalize their own situation, it's what we all do, we tell ourselves that our present situation is the way we like things to be. Why? So that we can avoid depression and despair. It's a defense mechanism.

So now we don't operate under the assumption that it's the women who are choosing to wear these. We claim that it's the husbands, and in general, the cultural norms that have shaped people that way.

So the question is this: Operating under the presumption that ultimately it's men who decide what their women wear, do you think they should be free to order any kind of clothing they want? Suppose you're a male, would you support your male friends imposing on their women what to wear?

1) I don't think anybody said that women(or men) should be allowed to wear whatever they want. The issue here is, is the burqa really harmful, or are we being our usual over generalizing and stereotypical selves?

2) Why wouldn't a woman wearing a burqa or a hijab for that matter feel free? ? Does uncovering your hair or face by default free you? That's an interesting concept you got there.

3) Why do you assume that women wearing Hijab do so out of oppression or force by males?
I can tell you that the large majority of muslim women wear Hijab by their own choice. Unless your in a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where you are by law forced to wear the Hijab(which isn't so much different than what Sarkozy is doing, just going to the opposite extreme). That of course i completely disagree with.

I think Hijabs have to be an individual thing, like that teacher trying to indoctrinate kids (the consequences should be for that teacher, not hijabs in general), but hijabs in general should be allowed all over IMO.

True.

 

[Seven]

Telling people to wear ONE thing or telling them NOT to wear ONE thing is a very very big difference, Fred.

 

[Ramin]

Burqah's should be banned everywhere, including muslim countries.

Its ridiculous.

 

[Seven]

1) I don't think anybody said that women(or men) should be allowed to wear whatever they want. The issue here is, is the burqa really harmful, or are we being our usual over generalizing and stereotypical selves?

2) Why wouldn't a woman wearing a burqa or a hijab for that matter feel free? ? Does uncovering your hair or face by default free you? That's an interesting concept you got there.

3) Why do you assume that women wearing Hijab do so out of oppression or force by males?
I can tell you that the large majority of muslim women wear Hijab by their own choice. Unless your in a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where you are by law forced to wear the Hijab(which isn't so much different than what Sarkozy is doing, just going to the opposite extreme). That of course i completely disagree with.




True.

Well, I guess the Hijab issue is not as clear. TBH I have to admit that even I don't see a big problem. Like I said, situation would have to be pretty extreme. But government officials cannot show to be muslim IMO. That's a no no. If that means they can't work for the government, so be it.

Is there anyone who really defends Burqahs on this forum? Because I do see them from time to time. First time I saw a burqah "in the flesh" it scared the hell out of me .

 

[Osman]

I think it somehow got more common laters years, when anti-islamic sentiment grew in the world, and as a reaction to it, parts of the muslim world became more radizalized.

Before that it was an obsecure minor traiditon by some ultra conservative countries (or rural societies). For examples, never had I heard of the notion of any somali muslim wearing burqas ever before, but last year, I seen few cases, and its really telling and bit weird. Was never heard of before for somalis.

 

[Martin]

1) I don't think anybody said that women(or men) should be allowed to wear whatever they want. The issue here is, is the burqa really harmful, or are we being our usual over generalizing and stereotypical selves?

2) Why wouldn't a woman wearing a burqa or a hijab for that matter feel free? ? Does uncovering your hair or face by default free you? That's an interesting concept you got there.

3) Why do you assume that women wearing Hijab do so out of oppression or force by males?
I can tell you that the large majority of muslim women wear Hijab by their own choice. Unless your in a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where you are by law forced to wear the Hijab(which isn't so much different than what Sarkozy is doing, just going to the opposite extreme). That of course i completely disagree with.

1) The argument is that yes it is harmful. People wearing such an outfit are similar to police in full riot gear, you cannot identify them anymore, it's just a uniform covering everything. Secondly, it's socially "hostile" (hostile is not really the right word but I don't know what to call it). How can you interact with such a person in public, how can a policeman or a shopkeeper or anyone at all properly communicate with someone whose face is completely covered? When I say hostile that means it inhibits communication, it's isolational. And that doesn't promote a good society imo.

2) Let's not beat around the bush, we know exactly what this is about. It's about sexual repression. The argument behind this is that you don't expose your body to anyone but your husband, your husband is the only one who can see you. What this means is that the woman is in some sense the property of the man, because the man can strut around with his hair and arms exposed, but the woman can't.

Now you can tell me that there is this one woman who suffers from anxiety and when she goes out in public wearing a burqa she feels less exposed and safe, and thus it's a sense of freedom. And if that really were the motive this would be a different debate. (But even in such a case treating the anxiety would be the way to go.) But is it? Is it really?

3) I wasn't talking about the hijab, though. But then it is nowhere near as radical as the burqa.

 

[Seven]

@Osman: but what came first? The chicken or the egg?

 

[Seven]

1) The argument is that yes it is harmful. People wearing such an outfit are similar to police in full riot gear, you cannot identify them anymore, it's just a uniform covering everything. Secondly, it's socially "hostile" (hostile is not really the right word but I don't know what to call it). How can you interact with such a person in public, how can a policeman or a shopkeeper or anyone at all properly communicate with someone whose face is completely covered? When I say hostile that means it inhibits communication, it's isolational. And that doesn't promote a good society imo.

2) Let's not beat around the bush, we know exactly what this is about. It's about sexual repression. The argument behind this is that you don't expose your body to anyone but your husband, your husband is the only one who can see you. What this means is that the woman is in some sense the property of the man, because the man can strut around with his hair and arms exposed, but the woman can't.

Now you can tell me that there is this one woman who suffers from anxiety and when she goes out in public wearing a burqa she feels less exposed and safe, and thus it's a sense of freedom. And if that really were the motive this would be a different debate. (But even in such a case treating the anxiety would be the way to go.) But is it? Is it really?

3) I wasn't talking about the hijab, though. But then it is nowhere near as radical as the burqa.

I completely agree with this. But like Martin says, this is about burqahs. Hijabs are a different story.

 

[Hist]

There are two issues here.

First, women's freedom to wear whatever they want. The people who think this freedom is more important than other issues, I would like to know how deeply committed you are to this principle. Do you really believe they should wear whatever they want? Do you support bikinis as well? If the women around you decided to wear bikinis would you champion their freedom?


The second issue is more difficult, and it has to do with female oppression. You see, just because you ask a woman wearing a burqa if she feels free and she tells you yes isn't very convincing. Why not? Because we as people adapt to whatever situation we encounter. To someone who's always lived like this it feels completely natural, how would they know that there is another way? See, we know this because we've had a feminist movement. There was a time in the not too distant past when women in Europe were being oppressed. If you'd ask a woman in the 50s whether she feels happy staying home with the children and having no prospects of a career, she would also say yes. How could she not when noone else was doing anything different? But today's women, who have come far towards gender equality, they would reject that "yes" because it's coming from someone who doesn't know that there is another way to live. In fact, they would reject their own "yes" from years ago as uninformed.

People rationalize their own situation, it's what we all do, we tell ourselves that our present situation is the way we like things to be. Why? So that we can avoid depression and despair. It's a defense mechanism.

So now we don't operate under the assumption that it's the women who are choosing to wear these. We claim that it's the husbands, and in general, the cultural norms that have shaped people that way.

So the question is this: Operating under the presumption that ultimately it's men who decide what their women wear, do you think they should be free to order any kind of clothing they want? Suppose you're a male, would you support your male friends imposing on their women what to wear?

I thought you guys believed in moral relativism

 

[icemaη]

I've a little doubt here, by burkha you mean the veil or only the black gown kinda thing?

 

[Martin]

I've a little doubt here, by burkha you mean the veil or only the black gown kinda thing?

The veil

 

[Martin]

I thought you guys believed in moral relativism

Please don't start talking like all the debates we had flew right over your head. I know you're not that dumb.

 

[icemaη]

The veil

Oh, okay. The black (generally) gown thing is called the burkha in my country.

 

[.zero]

TBH, i never understood muslim women wearing burqa's and i always thought it was a bit excessive. Wearing the Burqa is neither compulsory nor even required in Islam.

really? then why is it only practiced by muslims? and why is it still enforced? it has to be religiously driven no?

- It's a choice they make, at least in most families it is. You can be a muslim and not wear the burqa, but some women choose it not because they are forced but because it's part of their tradition. Remember that arab muslim women in general have a completely different mindset from European women. They still believe that exposing one's self at the beach for example is a cultural tabboo. They don't want to do it. Whether they have this mindset because their familly and culture have been spoonfeeding it to her is not very relevant here.

The point is that these women may feel that they are betraying their culture and religion and it's not very ethical to force them into to doing this.

- Why is it aggressive?

i don't think its a choice per se. if everyone around you is doing it and that is how you are raised then you will most likely follow suit. its not a matter of betraying, its a matter of social conditioning where they are taught that this is the norm and anything else is an abnormality.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

is this like the supreme court forcing gay marrige on the ignorant public, until they are ready to see their ignorance? time will tell i guess, all i am saying is that this could work

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

I kind of agree with you about the Turkey case, but remember that it is limited to university grounds. So IMHO it's not that big of a deal.

no, it is not limited to university grounds. i won't go into details but it is much more complicated.

They are forbidden in Turkey because there are extremist muslim sections (this is what the ECHR claim).

i can only say what echr claim is not telling the truth. it is about ''some promises'' made in early of 20th century.

 

[Fred]

really? then why is it only practiced by muslims? and why is it still enforced? it has to be religiously driven no?



i don't think its a choice per se. if everyone around you is doing it and that is how you are raised then you will most likely follow suit. its not a matter of betraying, its a matter of social conditioning where they are taught that this is the norm and anything else is an abnormality.

It is of course religiously driven. But like i said before it is not required nor compulsory to cover the face in Islam. If you read the whole thread i was asking if there were any muslims here that were in favor of the burqa, because i really want to know what their reasoning is in regards to the burqa.

As far as i'm concerned it's just a radical interpretation to the idea that muslim women should cover themselves.