They were forbidden after girls called other girls whores and it led to fights. They are forbidden in Turkey because there are extremist muslim sections (this is what the ECHR claim).
Buy on AliExpress.com
Did loverboy get it right? (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter Seven
- Start date
Buy on AliExpress.com
Seven, I was talking about hijabs up there, Burqa's way too much (also a identity thing, who the heck are you supposed to knows who is who, impractical for basic stuff like the bank, the police, the airport, or anything else that requires ID. Plus it really isnt anything religious about it, just extreme tradition of a minority).
I dont see how ANYONE can ban hijabs whatsoever (expecially schools, is an outrage), it might not be so ideal for some, but I fail to see in this day and age how you can have negative connotations with simple hijabs, its just a casual and normal custom. It doesnt deterr from anything.
I dont see how ANYONE can ban hijabs whatsoever (expecially schools, is an outrage), it might not be so ideal for some, but I fail to see in this day and age how you can have negative connotations with simple hijabs, its just a casual and normal custom. It doesnt deterr from anything.
I don't really know what the Europan Court of Human Rights says about Burqahs, but I do know what they say about religious clothing and I paraphrased it above. The problem, like I said, is one of conflicting rights. So before you can ban them (and I agree with this), you'd have to establish that they do harm. If, like you claim, you can't prove that they do any harm, you obviously can't ban them.
There are two cases that I remember very vividly and in both the context was hugely important: in Switzerland a woman was fired because she wore the hijab and tried to persuade children into wearing it too (in which case the "harm" was indoctrination), in the case in Turkey the "harm" hijabs would cause, was the possibility that they would aid extremist movements. Which is not too unlikely given the link between extremists and clothing.
Now in Belgium it is mostly forbidden in schools, because it leads to fights. More so than other pieces of clothing. So in the context those schools can decide that the violation of the rights of freedom of religion and the right of personal integrity is so important that the right to wear a religious symbol is limited. I tend to agree with that idea.
As for hijabs and government officials, it's the strict separation of State and Church that allows this. It's the same for Catholic symbols as well.
There are two cases that I remember very vividly and in both the context was hugely important: in Switzerland a woman was fired because she wore the hijab and tried to persuade children into wearing it too (in which case the "harm" was indoctrination), in the case in Turkey the "harm" hijabs would cause, was the possibility that they would aid extremist movements. Which is not too unlikely given the link between extremists and clothing.
Now in Belgium it is mostly forbidden in schools, because it leads to fights. More so than other pieces of clothing. So in the context those schools can decide that the violation of the rights of freedom of religion and the right of personal integrity is so important that the right to wear a religious symbol is limited. I tend to agree with that idea.
As for hijabs and government officials, it's the strict separation of State and Church that allows this. It's the same for Catholic symbols as well.
You obviously understood what I'm saying. But I don't really think you can be any sensible source of information, because you think stoning is people alright. I'm sorry, but if you think stoning is okay, you have no place in my society.
I'm asking because I want to hear from people like Fred and Osman. I disagree with Fred on a whole number of issues, we insult each other a lot and I just know that he intentionally misunderstands me at times, but I also know that he isn't likely to be either a plain retard or lie. And you are.
I'm asking because I want to hear from people like Fred and Osman. I disagree with Fred on a whole number of issues, we insult each other a lot and I just know that he intentionally misunderstands me at times, but I also know that he isn't likely to be either a plain retard or lie. And you are.
The Switzerland case. I'd agree with that, especially if the children you talk about, were girls that were too young to make their own judgment. So understandable that the teacher would be fired. But then again, you're punishing other women that did nothing wrong for the act of a few. Which is never fair.
As for Turkey's case. They're just way too simplistic and over generalising. 99% of women wearing Burqa's have no affiliation to any radical religious movement.
As for Turkey's case. They're just way too simplistic and over generalising. 99% of women wearing Burqa's have no affiliation to any radical religious movement.
The ECHR cases are almost always about individuals though. I haven't read anything about general national laws yet. It's about schools, universities, government jobs. Not about wearing a hijab when you're outside.
I kind of agree with you about the Turkey case, but remember that it is limited to university grounds. So IMHO it's not that big of a deal.
And Burqas.. well.. I think that in most European countries they are banned for security reasons anyway, like Osman said. So I don't think we even need particular laws.
I kind of agree with you about the Turkey case, but remember that it is limited to university grounds. So IMHO it's not that big of a deal.
And Burqas.. well.. I think that in most European countries they are banned for security reasons anyway, like Osman said. So I don't think we even need particular laws.
There are two issues here.
First, women's freedom to wear whatever they want. The people who think this freedom is more important than other issues, I would like to know how deeply committed you are to this principle. Do you really believe they should wear whatever they want? Do you support bikinis as well? If the women around you decided to wear bikinis would you champion their freedom?
The second issue is more difficult, and it has to do with female oppression. You see, just because you ask a woman wearing a burqa if she feels free and she tells you yes isn't very convincing. Why not? Because we as people adapt to whatever situation we encounter. To someone who's always lived like this it feels completely natural, how would they know that there is another way? See, we know this because we've had a feminist movement. There was a time in the not too distant past when women in Europe were being oppressed. If you'd ask a woman in the 50s whether she feels happy staying home with the children and having no prospects of a career, she would also say yes. How could she not when noone else was doing anything different? But today's women, who have come far towards gender equality, they would reject that "yes" because it's coming from someone who doesn't know that there is another way to live. In fact, they would reject their own "yes" from years ago as uninformed.
People rationalize their own situation, it's what we all do, we tell ourselves that our present situation is the way we like things to be. Why? So that we can avoid depression and despair. It's a defense mechanism.
So now we don't operate under the assumption that it's the women who are choosing to wear these. We claim that it's the husbands, and in general, the cultural norms that have shaped people that way.
So the question is this: Operating under the presumption that ultimately it's men who decide what their women wear, do you think they should be free to order any kind of clothing they want? Suppose you're a male, would you support your male friends imposing on their women what to wear?
First, women's freedom to wear whatever they want. The people who think this freedom is more important than other issues, I would like to know how deeply committed you are to this principle. Do you really believe they should wear whatever they want? Do you support bikinis as well? If the women around you decided to wear bikinis would you champion their freedom?
The second issue is more difficult, and it has to do with female oppression. You see, just because you ask a woman wearing a burqa if she feels free and she tells you yes isn't very convincing. Why not? Because we as people adapt to whatever situation we encounter. To someone who's always lived like this it feels completely natural, how would they know that there is another way? See, we know this because we've had a feminist movement. There was a time in the not too distant past when women in Europe were being oppressed. If you'd ask a woman in the 50s whether she feels happy staying home with the children and having no prospects of a career, she would also say yes. How could she not when noone else was doing anything different? But today's women, who have come far towards gender equality, they would reject that "yes" because it's coming from someone who doesn't know that there is another way to live. In fact, they would reject their own "yes" from years ago as uninformed.
People rationalize their own situation, it's what we all do, we tell ourselves that our present situation is the way we like things to be. Why? So that we can avoid depression and despair. It's a defense mechanism.
So now we don't operate under the assumption that it's the women who are choosing to wear these. We claim that it's the husbands, and in general, the cultural norms that have shaped people that way.
So the question is this: Operating under the presumption that ultimately it's men who decide what their women wear, do you think they should be free to order any kind of clothing they want? Suppose you're a male, would you support your male friends imposing on their women what to wear?
