How is it frustrating. I don't get why you would have a problem with the risks other people are taking.
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Coronavirus (COVID-19 Outbreak) (32 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
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Because he is American and the hospital system in America can’t carry the burden of half the population going unvaccinated, with all restrictions being lifted. Already in multiple states elective surgeries are being delayed again, and icus and hospitals are filling up to the point where field hospitals are being set up again, staffing shortages are becoming a problem, etc.
So no, it’s not just a risk people are individually taking. They are choosing to push the hospital system to the point of collapse. Now if those same anti-vax people were okay with mask mandates and some degree of social distancing, it would be a different story, but majority of them are opposed to both the vaccine and all mitigation efforts.
So no, it’s not just a risk people are individually taking. They are choosing to push the hospital system to the point of collapse. Now if those same anti-vax people were okay with mask mandates and some degree of social distancing, it would be a different story, but majority of them are opposed to both the vaccine and all mitigation efforts.
It's frustrating because I can't understand it. Also generally the people that believe that line of thinking will also tend to do absolutely nothing else instead. I have a few friends that are weary of the vaccines and haven't gotten it, but they'll at least do simple things like wear masks indoors that help contribute to reduction of the spread and protect themselves. As @Post Ironic basically said, the individual choices of people have a societal cost. It's REALLY not a fun time when things get stretched to their limit.
To put it simply, I don't like to see people die or suffer when it could be mostly, if not completely, preventable. Whether I agree with their opinions or not.
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I'm not either, but I guess they just want to give people an out.
To put it simply, I don't like to see people die or suffer when it could be mostly, if not completely, preventable. Whether I agree with their opinions or not.
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I'm not either, but I guess they just want to give people an out.
Then don't drink, don't do drugs, don't be fat, don't enjoy a single dollar of disposable income that could be saving people, don't even dare to drive or fly. In other words don't dare to be free. The societal cost is incurred no matter what people do. Fortunately in some countries there are unalienable rights that don't suffer the tyranny of the self-anointed.
Probably not the best examples for the point you're trying to make.
Don't drink, be fat: Sure, but me being drunk doesn't make you drunk. And a fat person cannot infect someone else. (Although judging by certain populations, you would think obesity is an infectious disease
)
Don't drive: Well, in order to be allowed to drive you need a license. Not unlike a COVID passport to be allowed to enter somewhere, you could say.
Don't dare to be free: I don't know exactly what you mean, but in general freedom is limited. My freedom stops where yours is/could be endangered.
Also, I am still very, very interested to hear the answer to a very simple question from everyone who sees the vaccine as purely personal choice: If your hospitals don't have enough beds to treat everyone who needs treatment, how would you decide who to admit & who to sacrifice?
Based on age? Based on wealth? Based on obesity? Based on having refused the vaccine? Luck of the draw? First come, first served? Based on gender? Based on skin colour? Etc. How do you see this actually working?
Don't drink, be fat: Sure, but me being drunk doesn't make you drunk. And a fat person cannot infect someone else. (Although judging by certain populations, you would think obesity is an infectious disease
)Don't drive: Well, in order to be allowed to drive you need a license. Not unlike a COVID passport to be allowed to enter somewhere, you could say.
Don't dare to be free: I don't know exactly what you mean, but in general freedom is limited. My freedom stops where yours is/could be endangered.
Also, I am still very, very interested to hear the answer to a very simple question from everyone who sees the vaccine as purely personal choice: If your hospitals don't have enough beds to treat everyone who needs treatment, how would you decide who to admit & who to sacrifice?
Based on age? Based on wealth? Based on obesity? Based on having refused the vaccine? Luck of the draw? First come, first served? Based on gender? Based on skin colour? Etc. How do you see this actually working?
Ok, that's perfectly fine with me. I mean it, I have no issues with that idea.
But could you also explain how that would work in the real word though? Because I can't.
Does that mean not admitting anyone to the hospital? Better yet, as @Nejc mentioned, survival of the fittest basically means hospitals can be closed down immediately.
And here's the kicker: in terms of COVID, if you compare a vaccinated person vs an unvaccinated person, the vaccinated one will ultimately be "the fittest" (speaking in general, obviously).
But could you also explain how that would work in the real word though? Because I can't.
Does that mean not admitting anyone to the hospital? Better yet, as @Nejc mentioned, survival of the fittest basically means hospitals can be closed down immediately.
And here's the kicker: in terms of COVID, if you compare a vaccinated person vs an unvaccinated person, the vaccinated one will ultimately be "the fittest" (speaking in general, obviously).
If you believe in the vaccine and their effectiveness then you 1) shouldn't end up as a severe case in the hospital, since vaccine helped you have mild symptoms 2) shouldn't worry about those who didn't get one, nor worry about yourself, since, again, you believe in the vaccine. So if you have 10 people in your family and everyone got one, then you're pretty much safe and, yeah, fittest, if you wanna call it like that. So why would you worry about it exactly? If majority took it, then hospitals shouldn't be overwhelmed surely. As for the mutations, even vaccinated people can spread it, so it can mutate anyway.
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
But stop beating around the bush. Who gets admitted to the hospital & who doesn't. It's a simple enough question.
Or if you want to use the example of a family. You also have 10 people in your family. All 10 require hospital treatment. There are 5 beds available. Who deserves treatment, who doesn't?
2) Yes.
But stop beating around the bush. Who gets admitted to the hospital & who doesn't. It's a simple enough question.
Or if you want to use the example of a family. You also have 10 people in your family. All 10 require hospital treatment. There are 5 beds available. Who deserves treatment, who doesn't?
Probably not the best examples for the point you're trying to make.
Don't drink, be fat: Sure, but me being drunk doesn't make you drunk. And a fat person cannot infect someone else. (Although judging by certain populations, you would think obesity is an infectious disease)
Don't drive: Well, in order to be allowed to drive you need a license. Not unlike a COVID passport to be allowed to enter somewhere, you could say.
Don't dare to be free: I don't know exactly what you mean, but in general freedom is limited. My freedom stops where yours is/could be endangered.
Also, I am still very, very interested to hear the answer to a very simple question from everyone who sees the vaccine as purely personal choice: If your hospitals don't have enough beds to treat everyone who needs treatment, how would you decide who to admit & who to sacrifice?
Based on age? Based on wealth? Based on obesity? Based on having refused the vaccine? Luck of the draw? First come, first served? Based on gender? Based on skin colour? Etc. How do you see this actually working?
Don't drink, be fat: Sure, but me being drunk doesn't make you drunk. And a fat person cannot infect someone else. (Although judging by certain populations, you would think obesity is an infectious disease
)Don't drive: Well, in order to be allowed to drive you need a license. Not unlike a COVID passport to be allowed to enter somewhere, you could say.
Don't dare to be free: I don't know exactly what you mean, but in general freedom is limited. My freedom stops where yours is/could be endangered.
Also, I am still very, very interested to hear the answer to a very simple question from everyone who sees the vaccine as purely personal choice: If your hospitals don't have enough beds to treat everyone who needs treatment, how would you decide who to admit & who to sacrifice?
Based on age? Based on wealth? Based on obesity? Based on having refused the vaccine? Luck of the draw? First come, first served? Based on gender? Based on skin colour? Etc. How do you see this actually working?
Really simple actually, we get rid of subsidized universal insurance, except for very specific protected classes, and we let insurance companies increase premiums based on risk factors. Choices have concequences right?
It sounds cruel but you have to look at the bigger picture because a simple yes or no can't answer your question. (You know, that thing like: do your parents know you're gay? Like that, a simple yes or no is not enough or even possible).
When I say that I'm not looking forward to seeing people die but rather trying not to see so many people dead. I don't see how can one rule be applied for all countries. But we don't know how long will this last, we don't know whether it will mutate or not, we don't know how it will affect countries even with vaccines. Lockdowns and curfews might be applied by some but it's not possible to compare all countries and apply the same rule. Like I said: consequences. Just because we had quite strict measure we're seeing crazy spikes in prices (at least here) to the point that it's becoming hilarious and sad at the same time. It's literally huge. Then, we see many companies go to the shitter. People are being left without job and finding one is not a piece of a cake.
What is a solution? Have majority vaccinated, have restrictions, wear masks, have social distancing until.... when? Until the whole thing disappears? I just don't see that happening and I don't think it's even possible to stop the world/economy like that. Shortly, I think we're going to live with it. And imo living is not having restrictions, lockdowns, curfews and hyperinflation. Maybe more people would die (maybe) but everyone ignores money that would keep others alive and have others financially secured.
But it's not beating around the bush, isn't it? How do we get overwhelmed hospitals if so many people took the vaccine? If that happens then it looks like a fraud to me.
When I say that I'm not looking forward to seeing people die but rather trying not to see so many people dead. I don't see how can one rule be applied for all countries. But we don't know how long will this last, we don't know whether it will mutate or not, we don't know how it will affect countries even with vaccines. Lockdowns and curfews might be applied by some but it's not possible to compare all countries and apply the same rule. Like I said: consequences. Just because we had quite strict measure we're seeing crazy spikes in prices (at least here) to the point that it's becoming hilarious and sad at the same time. It's literally huge. Then, we see many companies go to the shitter. People are being left without job and finding one is not a piece of a cake.
What is a solution? Have majority vaccinated, have restrictions, wear masks, have social distancing until.... when? Until the whole thing disappears? I just don't see that happening and I don't think it's even possible to stop the world/economy like that. Shortly, I think we're going to live with it. And imo living is not having restrictions, lockdowns, curfews and hyperinflation. Maybe more people would die (maybe) but everyone ignores money that would keep others alive and have others financially secured.
But it's not beating around the bush, isn't it? How do we get overwhelmed hospitals if so many people took the vaccine? If that happens then it looks like a fraud to me.