Claudio Marchisio (67 Viewers)

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
This guy :D

Seriously Dukac, i'm gonna try to explain the situation again, please read this carefully, cause you are wrongly interpreting it.


When you exercise, you create microtrauma in the muscles, tendons and ligaments. The body has a natural response to recover from this. Because of structural differences, the natural recovery of tendons&ligaments, versus muscles is completely different in speed and mechanism.
Muscles :
Muscle trauma will release various molecules called Receptor tyrosine kinases (RTKs) that bind to the IGF1-R, and thus creating IGF-1. This is by far the most potent signalisating molecule for triggering protein synthesis. Because of the muscle trauma, calcium that is normally stored in the smooth ER, will accumulate in the muscle. This calcium will act as an activator for various proteases that break down muscle protein, which causes inflammation, this inflammation is the pain that is felt from non hypertrophy muscle training. This inflammation is an issue, because it will slow down the protein synthesis and slows down the recovery. However, this inflammatory phase is very short for a conditionned athlete. Most importantly, the amount of inflammation is directly proportional to the amount of muscle trauma and does not increase over time. Your muscle will be performing less if it isnt recovered enough.
Tendons and ligaments :
Tendons and ligaments are mostly made from collagen. Very strong substance. At low stress, they arent good at transferring loads, but as they get more stressed, they become stiffer and transfer the muscle's force MUCH better. Tendons grow in function of the muscle, but the mechanism is much slower. Microtrauma in tendons causes tendocytes to increase expression of IFG-1. However to do this, you need to put a significant strain on them, because collagen is that strong. (this is vital in strenght training. volume builds muscle, but you need to go 80%+ of your maximum to create better tendons, and you need frequency to max out your natural recovery of all of this).
1) When the tendon receives microtrauma however, inflammation of the tissue occurs because inflammatory agents (neutrophils, macrophages and monocytes) will move to the damaged area's and clean the scarred tissue by phagocytosis, inducing an inflammatory responce. So you'll be having slightly inflammated tendons.
2)Then tendon fibroblasts will start repairing the zone by collagen synthesis and depositing this at the wound site. For strenght athletes, this is consistantly happening. So you get consistant inflammation, when it builds too much, you start to feel pain and decreased tendon function. this is overtraining.
3) Then comes the final step of remoddeling. the repair tissue changes to fibrous tissue with the highest stiffness and tension strenght.

The proces duration depends on the amount of trauma. For training induced microtrauma, its about a4-6 days. When you tear off a ligament like marchisio, 1) takes a few days, 2) takes 6 weeks and 3) takes another 10 weeks.
The big issue with training here is that you need to push 85% or higher maximum strenght to force microtrauma, but to make progress you need to keep it continiously going. When making progress, this leads to increased inflammation which will result in acute inflammation. (

As seen in the spoilored explenations above, muscles, ligaments and tendons that recover naturally from training, will be slightly inflammated, and in tendons this can build up. This inflammation will decrease the natural recovery from training. When taking NSAID's, this inflammation caused by training will be kept on a minimum, so the natural recovery will be at its best speed.

When you tear something, it will take 4-6 months to recover. However, the recovery system works in the same way. First the ligament or tendon is reattached. step 1(see second spoiler) will clean up all necrotic tissue, causing inflammation. THis step occurs in the hospital, so the patient will receive intravenous NSAID's to controll this . Once past the worst inflammation response (your knee is swollen as fuck), you can go home and will be prescribed with oral NSAID's for some weeks. After x weeks, a docter will examine your scar tissue. In step 2(see second spoiler), we see the collagen is deposited at the wound. But this can leave bad scar tissue, which will be surgically removed. If the first operation was good, this is not necessary.


So yeah. NSAID's are vital in recovery from inflammation.

@Post-Ironic feel free to correct if i'm wrong
 

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duranfj

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
8,765
Please, someone ban all Marchisio haters from this thread for a while or Ban me instead... cuz If I read just one post about how good is this for the team, I would make a record in cursing, swearing, cussing even their death relatives...

Forza Marchisio
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,845
This guy :D

Seriously Dukac, i'm gonna try to explain the situation again, please read this carefully, cause you are wrongly interpreting it.


When you exercise, you create microtrauma in the muscles, tendons and ligaments. The body has a natural response to recover from this. Because of structural differences, the natural recovery of tendons&ligaments, versus muscles is completely different in speed and mechanism.
Muscles :
Muscle trauma will release various molecules called Receptor tyrosine kinases (RTKs) that bind to the IGF1-R, and thus creating IGF-1. This is by far the most potent signalisating molecule for triggering protein synthesis. Because of the muscle trauma, calcium that is normally stored in the smooth ER, will accumulate in the muscle. This calcium will act as an activator for various proteases that break down muscle protein, which causes inflammation, this inflammation is the pain that is felt from non hypertrophy muscle training. This inflammation is an issue, because it will slow down the protein synthesis and slows down the recovery. However, this inflammatory phase is very short for a conditionned athlete. Most importantly, the amount of inflammation is directly proportional to the amount of muscle trauma and does not increase over time. Your muscle will be performing less if it isnt recovered enough.
Tendons and ligaments :
Tendons and ligaments are mostly made from collagen. Very strong substance. At low stress, they arent good at transferring loads, but as they get more stressed, they become stiffer and transfer the muscle's force MUCH better. Tendons grow in function of the muscle, but the mechanism is much slower. Microtrauma in tendons causes tendocytes to increase expression of IFG-1. However to do this, you need to put a significant strain on them, because collagen is that strong. (this is vital in strenght training. volume builds muscle, but you need to go 80%+ of your maximum to create better tendons, and you need frequency to max out your natural recovery of all of this).
1) When the tendon receives microtrauma however, inflammation of the tissue occurs because inflammatory agents (neutrophils, macrophages and monocytes) will move to the damaged area's and clean the scarred tissue by phagocytosis, inducing an inflammatory responce. So you'll be having slightly inflammated tendons.
2)Then tendon fibroblasts will start repairing the zone by collagen synthesis and depositing this at the wound site. For strenght athletes, this is consistantly happening. So you get consistant inflammation, when it builds too much, you start to feel pain and decreased tendon function. this is overtraining.
3) Then comes the final step of remoddeling. the repair tissue changes to fibrous tissue with the highest stiffness and tension strenght.

The proces duration depends on the amount of trauma. For training induced microtrauma, its about a4-6 days. When you tear off a ligament like marchisio, 1) takes a few days, 2) takes 6 weeks and 3) takes another 10 weeks.
The big issue with training here is that you need to push 85% or higher maximum strenght to force microtrauma, but to make progress you need to keep it continiously going. When making progress, this leads to increased inflammation which will result in acute inflammation. (

As seen in the spoilored explenations above, muscles, ligaments and tendons that recover naturally from training, will be slightly inflammated, and in tendons this can build up. This inflammation will decrease the natural recovery from training. When taking NSAID's, this inflammation caused by training will be kept on a minimum, so the natural recovery will be at its best speed.

When you tear something, it will take 4-6 months to recover. However, the recovery system works in the same way. First the ligament or tendon is reattached. step 1(see second spoiler) will clean up all necrotic tissue, causing inflammation. THis step occurs in the hospital, so the patient will receive intravenous NSAID's to controll this . Once past the worst inflammation response (your knee is swollen as fuck), you can go home and will be prescribed with oral NSAID's for some weeks. After x weeks, a docter will examine your scar tissue. In step 2(see second spoiler), we see the collagen is deposited at the wound. But this can leave bad scar tissue, which will be surgically removed. If the first operation was good, this is not necessary.


So yeah. NSAID's are vital in recovery from inflammation.

@Post-Ironic feel free to correct if i'm wrong
:tup:

Great post.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,845
Zach's post is a good one though, and informative of the healing process for a ACL tear, and recovery from training and injuries in general.

Makes it relevant. I find that stuff interesting. I'm happy we have someone on the forum who can explain this stuff in detail.

Dukac was just misinterpreting what Zach was saying. No harm in clearing that up here. I'm sure most members won't read the post anyways and could care less about the benefits of NSAIDs in the recovery process for tendon and ligament injuries.
 

Carlos Primera

Il Vecchio Signore
Mar 29, 2009
1,185
Worse than Asa's injury. Will take 6 months at least to recover+rehab from. Its actually better to break a bone than tear a ligament as per what some orthopaedic surgeons say. Because unlike bone, the there is very limited/poor vascular supply to ligaments which makes healing a lot slower. Standard treatment of choice is knee reconstruction, where they remove a small portion of the middle of your patella (most common choice) to use as a graft, they then graft this to the ligament ends. Normally there is a period of perhaps 6-8 weeks of not bearing any weight on the injured leg. Healing depends on a person to person basis. What prolongs athletes getting back to action is the time they need for rehab. Due to inactivity there is muscle dystrophy on the injured leg and what you will normally see in people who have had knee reconstruction done is for one leg to be noticeably skinnier/no muscle tone compared to the good leg. Now for Everyday joe's this isn't much of a big deal given time. For athletes like Marchisio they will need specialized strengthening/rehab regimes desingned for them. After that you have to get his stamina et al, in peak condition for professional football. Whats important is that he isn't rushed to action to soon and let him take all the time he needs, otherwise there is a risk of the reconstructed knee rupturing again.

There are some new methods that are meant to assist with improved recovery times for knee injuries. Someone mentioned plasma enriched therapy, which improves supply of blood to the knee, though I think these are mainly used in meniscus injuries, most high profile athlete Incan think of who underwent this was Kobe Bryant a few years back when he injured his meniscus. There are also some new methods being trialed including one where a blood enriched sponge type material is injected into the knee which helps the torn ligament ends heal, but I dont think there has been much studies conducted on this type of method to compare its efficacy vs. Standard knee reconstruction which is normally the gold standard.

On the beight side, if you look at someone like Roberto Baggio who fucked his knee up worse during his time in Fiorentina, in an era where medical science was less refines, it never stopoed him from being one of the all time greats. Obviously there are cases like Ronaldo's where he was robbed of much of the physical gifts which made him unplayable (still enjoyed an all time great career mind you), but Marchisio was never this type of player anyway.

Get Marchissio as much time as he needs to get better. Beppe meanwhile to sign some one who can cover cm in the summer.
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
Someone who has a chronic need to seem like he is in the right at all times.
I was having a conversation with some people, that guy misread something and attacked me, so i made several posts trying to make him understand


You see, first ligaments and later tendons have been my key weakness my entire life, and i'm having to work my way around it.

I've adressed the problematic tendons mostly. But the brachioradialis tendon and triceps tendon for both arms remain the main issue. Tricep and bicep isolation to increase muscle mass and frequent use of voltare gel as local NSAID have significantly aided the issue, but it still returned about 2 weeks ago, when all 4 tendons went into accute inflammation at the end of my contest preparation.

Still, at the competition yesterday, i managed a new personal record of 175kg, with a good amount of progress to work towards. 2 grams of ibuprofene each day kept the inflammation from going to actual tendinitis, while still lifting up to 85% for reps.

Yeah, it will be a cold day in hell before i'm going to allow anyone to question the recovery aid of NSAID's in tendon inflammation.
 

Hængebøffer

Senior Member
Jun 4, 2009
25,185
Worse than Asa's injury. Will take 6 months at least to recover+rehab from. Its actually better to break a bone than tear a ligament as per what some orthopaedic surgeons say. Because unlike bone, the there is very limited/poor vascular supply to ligaments which makes healing a lot slower. Standard treatment of choice is knee reconstruction, where they remove a small portion of the middle of your patella (most common choice) to use as a graft, they then graft this to the ligament ends. Normally there is a period of perhaps 6-8 weeks of not bearing any weight on the injured leg. Healing depends on a person to person basis. What prolongs athletes getting back to action is the time they need for rehab. Due to inactivity there is muscle dystrophy on the injured leg and what you will normally see in people who have had knee reconstruction done is for one leg to be noticeably skinnier/no muscle tone compared to the good leg. Now for Everyday joe's this isn't much of a big deal given time. For athletes like Marchisio they will need specialized strengthening/rehab regimes desingned for them. After that you have to get his stamina et al, in peak condition for professional football. Whats important is that he isn't rushed to action to soon and let him take all the time he needs, otherwise there is a risk of the reconstructed knee rupturing again.

There are some new methods that are meant to assist with improved recovery times for knee injuries. Someone mentioned plasma enriched therapy, which improves supply of blood to the knee, though I think these are mainly used in meniscus injuries, most high profile athlete Incan think of who underwent this was Kobe Bryant a few years back when he injured his meniscus. There are also some new methods being trialed including one where a blood enriched sponge type material is injected into the knee which helps the torn ligament ends heal, but I dont think there has been much studies conducted on this type of method to compare its efficacy vs. Standard knee reconstruction which is normally the gold standard.

On the beight side, if you look at someone like Roberto Baggio who fucked his knee up worse during his time in Fiorentina, in an era where medical science was less refines, it never stopoed him from being one of the all time greats. Obviously there are cases like Ronaldo's where he was robbed of much of the physical gifts which made him unplayable (still enjoyed an all time great career mind you), but Marchisio was never this type of player anyway.

Get Marchissio as much time as he needs to get better. Beppe meanwhile to sign some one who can cover cm in the summer.
You're over analyzing this. Cola Zero and ibuprofen and he'll be good to go in two months.
 

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
Worse than Asa's injury. Will take 6 months at least to recover+rehab from. Its actually better to break a bone than tear a ligament as per what some orthopaedic surgeons say. Because unlike bone, the there is very limited/poor vascular supply to ligaments which makes healing a lot slower. Standard treatment of choice is knee reconstruction, where they remove a small portion of the middle of your patella (most common choice) to use as a graft, they then graft this to the ligament ends. Normally there is a period of perhaps 6-8 weeks of not bearing any weight on the injured leg. Healing depends on a person to person basis. What prolongs athletes getting back to action is the time they need for rehab. Due to inactivity there is muscle dystrophy on the injured leg and what you will normally see in people who have had knee reconstruction done is for one leg to be noticeably skinnier/no muscle tone compared to the good leg. Now for Everyday joe's this isn't much of a big deal given time. For athletes like Marchisio they will need specialized strengthening/rehab regimes desingned for them. After that you have to get his stamina et al, in peak condition for professional football. Whats important is that he isn't rushed to action to soon and let him take all the time he needs, otherwise there is a risk of the reconstructed knee rupturing again.

There are some new methods that are meant to assist with improved recovery times for knee injuries. Someone mentioned plasma enriched therapy, which improves supply of blood to the knee, though I think these are mainly used in meniscus injuries, most high profile athlete Incan think of who underwent this was Kobe Bryant a few years back when he injured his meniscus. There are also some new methods being trialed including one where a blood enriched sponge type material is injected into the knee which helps the torn ligament ends heal, but I dont think there has been much studies conducted on this type of method to compare its efficacy vs. Standard knee reconstruction which is normally the gold standard.

On the beight side, if you look at someone like Roberto Baggio who fucked his knee up worse during his time in Fiorentina, in an era where medical science was less refines, it never stopoed him from being one of the all time greats. Obviously there are cases like Ronaldo's where he was robbed of much of the physical gifts which made him unplayable (still enjoyed an all time great career mind you), but Marchisio was never this type of player anyway.

Get Marchissio as much time as he needs to get better. Beppe meanwhile to sign some one who can cover cm in the summer
.
I've torn off a ligament aged 16 and broke the bone it is attached to 1 year later. Fracture took half as long to recover at best, and the bone will be stronger than before. Yeah, i'll take that fracture :D

- - - Updated - - -

You're over analyzing this. Cola Zero and ibuprofen and he'll be good to go in two months.
I see you didnt bother reading. NSAID's are a part of the first weeks of the recovery proces he'll face

- - - Updated - - -

ACL injuries are unpredictable.
His ALC could have been completely fine and still rupture when your leg is blocked and you take such a tackle.


Its the main downside from beeing that low fat%
 

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