[CL] Tottenham Hotspur 1-2 JUVENTUS [March 7th 2018] (24 Viewers)

[Post Ironic]

That's awesome. Like they were playing volleyball.

The New York Times had a great take on it too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/sports/juventus-beats-tottenham-champions-league.html
First:

And yet, at that moment, when the suffering should have been greatest, it looked — somehow — an awful lot like Juventus was enjoying itself. Chiellini and Barzagli, backed into a corner and straining every sinew, seemed to be having fun.

“That is the kind of players they are,” their coach, Massimiliano Allegri, said after his team had held off Tottenham for the 2-1 victory. “The problem is that Chiellini is 34 and Barzagli is 37. That is difficult for us.”

And later:

All of those worries remain true, of course. Juventus is not quite what it was; it is not as strong a team as last year, or as strong a team as in 2015, when it lost to Barcelona in the Champions League final. Buffon, Barzagli and Chiellini are not immortal. Their sheen will fade with time.

Underneath it, though, they have not changed. Beneath the mottled surface, they are still iron, and it is that which carried them through: their refusal to wilt; the wisdom that is measured in battle scars; and, yes, their relish for the fight.

It was there when Chiellini made a last-ditch challenge, and Buffon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck in sheer, screaming delight. It was there when Barzagli beat Lamela to the ball as it bounced along the goal-line in the final minute, and thundered it high into the sky. It was there when Buffon fell on a cross, right at the last, and Chiellini pummeled him with punches in celebration. They are not just good at this, not just at home when they are doing it. They are having fun, too.

Juventus is not what it was. But what it is should not be underestimated. Wizened and grizzled, tough and smart, not just ready for battle but positively looking forward to it. It is one thing to endure an onslaught and come through unscathed. It is quite another to smile as the blows rain down.

It is how Juventus reacts when it is threatened that makes it so dangerous. In those last few minutes, its players would have been forgiven for feeling that the clock was standing still, for wishing that it would move just a little faster. They did not give that impression, though. They looked, instead, like a team that always has time on its side.

 

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[JCK]

It was a back 3 from what I could tell, that's a big reason to why Son was always free in behind the midfield as Barzagli was more central.

The fact is that Alex Sandro was playing in a very advanced role almost on the same line as Douglas Costa on the other flank. In transition to defend it was tough for him to track back and it forced the back three to stay compact close to each other. I will actually go and say that we played a back both in defense and in attack because Alex Sandro would very rarely go to his position. It is exactly why Allegri fielded Asamoah to complete the back 4. It's really silly to discuss it anyway, anyone arguing that it was a back 4 from the first minute should go back and watch the match. The best shot of our shape is minute 35 just ahead of their goal, it looks exactly as those formations they draw before the match starts.

 

[PhRoZeN]

The fact is that Alex Sandro was playing in a very advanced role almost on the same line as Douglas Costa on the other flank. In transition to defend it was tough for him to track back and it forced the back three to stay compact close to each other. I will actually go and say that we played a back both in defense and in attack because Alex Sandro would very rarely go to his position. It is exactly why Allegri fielded Asamoah to complete the back 4. It's really silly to discuss it anyway, anyone arguing that it was a back 4 from the first minute should go back and watch the match. The best shot of our shape is minute 35 just ahead of their goal, it looks exactly as those formations they draw before the match starts.

You don't need to convince or prove to anyone. That was a back 3, it was clear as daylight.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

To be fair though the first half of that game looked some of our players had never passed a football between each other before

All part of the plan

Lull them into a false sense of security and then bam! :Higgy:

 

[MikeM]

The fact is that Alex Sandro was playing in a very advanced role almost on the same line as Douglas Costa on the other flank. In transition to defend it was tough for him to track back and it forced the back three to stay compact close to each other. I will actually go and say that we played a back both in defense and in attack because Alex Sandro would very rarely go to his position. It is exactly why Allegri fielded Asamoah to complete the back 4. It's really silly to discuss it anyway, anyone arguing that it was a back 4 from the first minute should go back and watch the match. The best shot of our shape is minute 35 just ahead of their goal, it looks exactly as those formations they draw before the match starts.

This was the exact formation. It comes down to whether you think Alex Sandro's position is midfield or defence. But Alex Sandro came inside to be in line with the CBs way more often than he went up to join Costa. And Barzagli was found on the touchline way too often for a CB.

We've seen Max use a 3 man defence many times. Never is the RCB left so alone on the flank. If Costa was supposed to be RWB like a Cuadrado style then he failed in spectacular fashion. Costa or Khedira or whoever you think was RM never came even close to as far back in defence as Alex Sandro did.

-------------------Higuain
----------------------------Dybala
----------------------------------------------Costa
--------Matuidi-----Pjanic--Khedira
Alex Sandro
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia-----Barzagli


And when Lichtsteiner came on it went to a more traditional 4-4-2:



Asamoah-----------------------------------Lichsteiner
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia

 

[Dominic]

This was the exact formation. It comes down to whether you think Alex Sandro's position is midfield or defence. But Alex Sandro came inside to be in line with the CBs way more often than he went up to join Costa. And Barzagli was found on the touchline way too often for a CB.

We've seen Max use a 3 man defence many times. Never is the RCB left so alone on the flank. If Costa was supposed to be RWB like a Cuadrado style then he failed in spectacular fashion. Costa or Khedira or whoever you think was RM never came even close to as far back in defence as Alex Sandro did.

-------------------Higuain
----------------------------Dybala
----------------------------------------------Costa
--------Matuidi-----Pjanic--Khedira
Alex Sandro
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia-----Barzagli


And when Lichtsteiner came on it went to a more traditional 4-4-2:



Asamoah-----------------------------------Lichsteiner
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia

Yeah 4-4-2 would describe it best

 

[JCK]

This was the exact formation. It comes down to whether you think Alex Sandro's position is midfield or defence. But Alex Sandro came inside to be in line with the CBs way more often than he went up to join Costa. And Barzagli was found on the touchline way too often for a CB.

We've seen Max use a 3 man defence many times. Never is the RCB left so alone on the flank. If Costa was supposed to be RWB like a Cuadrado style then he failed in spectacular fashion. Costa or Khedira or whoever you think was RM never came even close to as far back in defence as Alex Sandro did.

-------------------Higuain
----------------------------Dybala
----------------------------------------------Costa
--------Matuidi-----Pjanic--Khedira
Alex Sandro
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia-----Barzagli


And when Lichtsteiner came on it went to a more traditional 4-4-2:



Asamoah-----------------------------------Lichsteiner
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia

One of the most important reasons to why we changed shape.

And in that formation you drew, you can see that Alex Sandro in fact was most of the time ahead of Matuidi.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah 4-4-2 would describe it best

The 442 appeared when Lichtsteiner and Asamoah came in, before that it was nothing close to a defensive four.

And this is the last post I will write on this matter.

 

[DAiDEViL]

This was the exact formation. It comes down to whether you think Alex Sandro's position is midfield or defence. But Alex Sandro came inside to be in line with the CBs way more often than he went up to join Costa. And Barzagli was found on the touchline way too often for a CB.

We've seen Max use a 3 man defence many times. Never is the RCB left so alone on the flank. If Costa was supposed to be RWB like a Cuadrado style then he failed in spectacular fashion. Costa or Khedira or whoever you think was RM never came even close to as far back in defence as Alex Sandro did.

-------------------Higuain
----------------------------Dybala
----------------------------------------------Costa
--------Matuidi-----Pjanic--Khedira
Alex Sandro
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia-----Barzagli


And when Lichtsteiner came on it went to a more traditional 4-4-2:



Asamoah-----------------------------------Lichsteiner
-------------------Chiellini--Benatia

Yes. And i don't really blame him for that, he's not a Cuadrado/RWB. But it was the reason Son could pretty much do whatever he wanted to.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't need to convince or prove to anyone. That was a back 3, it was clear as daylight.

 

[MikeM]

3 man defence with a midfielder marking the striker in the centre of the pitch? Is there an example of the inverse where Costa is marking the striker and Alex Sandro is way up the field? No because they are not in the same line! It is exactly how I posted it where AS is behind Pjanic-Khedira and Costa is ahead of them. The formation is completely unbalanced.

In conclusion: Start Lichtsteiner

And also: Cuadrado

 

[pavluska]

Lots of "Spurs dominated" and "we suck and have no chance against other teams" type comments, neither of which I get.

Over two legs, we had more clear chances. They dominated our midfield, that can't be argued, credit where it's due, but there's more to the game. We had the better chances. Gigi didn't even make any big saves in 2nd leg.

With injuries, half-fit players, and tired legs, it's hardly surprising we aren't able to play with a lot of intensity right now. Not sure how that translates to us sucking a month from now.

Spurs played a high line and packed the middle, taking any space away and won every duel. We couldn't go through the middle. We couldn't play long balls over their defense either because Higuain is slow. I think that's how Tot'num always plays, and it happened to be perfect for them vs us...

Until the subs happened. We were playing Zona Mista in attack (those arguing whether it was back-3 or back-4, you're both right ; RB in Zona Mista is something in between a RB and CB) and 442 in defense. Then switched to 442 in attack too with AS playing farther forward, and Licht making overlapping runs. We had to go around them to go past them and spread their defense, and we did. Sanchez made a mistake, their LB sucks, and the rest is history.

- - - Updated - - -

MikeM literally crushed the silly debate lol. Not sure how the clear 442 defensive shape could've been mistaken if you were watching the game.

 

[swag]

The New York Times had a great take on it too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/sports/juventus-beats-tottenham-champions-league.html
First:


And later:

That's great!

 

[Post Ironic]

3 man defence with a midfielder marking the striker in the centre of the pitch? Is there an example of the inverse where Costa is marking the striker and Alex Sandro is way up the field? No because they are not in the same line! It is exactly how I posted it where AS is behind Pjanic-Khedira and Costa is ahead of them. The formation is completely unbalanced.

In conclusion: Start Lichtsteiner

And also: Cuadrado

Yeah, I believe what confused people is we started out with a back 4 shape, Barza stayed wide very briefly, and then seemed to drift in and stay there as a RCB in 3 man defense the rest of the match. Unfortunately, this left that side of the pitch completely open for Spurs to exploit. We literally had no one on that side of the pitch, it was really poor choice from Max to set us up in such an unbalanced fashion, and exposed us badly in the first half, made Son look like a world-beater.

 

[MikeM]

Yeah, I believe what confused people is we started out with a back 4 shape, Barza stayed wide very briefly, and then seemed to drift in and stay there as a RCB in 3 man defense the rest of the match. Unfortunately, this left that side of the pitch completely open for Spurs to exploit. We literally had no one on that side of the pitch, it was really poor choice from Max to set us up in such an unbalanced fashion, and exposed us badly in the first half, made Son look like a world-beater.

The idea was that Costa could help Barza but the thing with Spurs is they don't play it slowly from the back. So you can't move your team up and down compactly.

Costa is up in attack because the ball is at Lloris for example. Then Lloris smashes to Kane and they win the 2nd ball. Now how many times when they won the 2nd ball was our team so far stretched out because they were up the field? Basically the whole match! So we had huge gaps between the midfield and the defence. And with a huge gap that means you have Barzagli exposed completely in acres of space.

I really think Allegri got murdered in the 2nd leg. One of the very few times I can say that.

Considering Spurs do not have the intention to sit back and counter, we could have made it easier on ourselves to play a more compact 4-5-1 with a CDM helping our CBs to get that 2nd ball. And the CDM to also close that huge gap between CMs and CB. And in attack I'm convinced we would score a goal on that high line whether played 4-4-2 or 8-2-0 to be honest.

But as a sidenote: You can see how difficult it is to play a team with a striker like Kane who fights your CBs to death for every ball. You know for sure if you smash it to him that Chiellini will not win it clean. It will fall around Kane 99% of the time. So you can plan to have your support attackers in that area.

If you smash it to Dybala/Higuain most of the time their CB will win it clean straight back up the pitch.

 

[Post Ironic]

The idea was that Costa could help Barza but the thing with Spurs is they don't play it slowly from the back. So you can't move your team up and down compactly.

Costa is up in attack because the ball is at Lloris for example. Then Lloris smashes to Kane and they win the 2nd ball. Now how many times when they won the 2nd ball was our team so far stretched out because they were up the field? Basically the whole match! So we had huge gaps between the midfield and the defence. And with a huge gap that means you have Barzagli exposed completely in acres of space.

I really think Allegri got murdered in the 2nd leg. One of the very few times I can say that.

Considering Spurs do not have the intention to sit back and counter, we could have made it easier on ourselves to play a more compact 4-5-1 with a CDM helping our CBs to get that 2nd ball. And the CDM to also close that huge gap between CMs and CB. And in attack I'm convinced we would score a goal on that high line whether played 4-4-2 or 8-2-0 to be honest.

2015-16 Juventus 2nd leg setup vs Bayern would have smashed this game. I do believe, when everyone is healthy and in form we have a much better team this year than that year, but that particular set-up would have completely nullified Spurs.

 

[IliveForJuve]

Thank you, MikeM.

You literally shat on the folks who claimed we played with 3 at the back.

 

[JUVESUPPORTER]

Other than a 10 minute period in the first leg and a 15 minute period in the second leg Tottenham were dominating us.

Our midfield will be eaten alive if we come up against Real. Khediera is non existent. Our midfield is so distinctively average for a top European side. Matuidi, Pjanic and Costa are all just below world class unfortunately and Kheideira isn't close. Honestly can't see us progressing to final with our current midfield unfortunately.

 

[dyl1dyl]

Other than a 10 minute period in the first leg and a 15 minute period in the second leg Tottenham were dominating us.

Our midfield will be eaten alive if we come up against Real. Khediera is non existent. Our midfield is so distinctively average for a top European side. Matuidi, Pjanic and Costa are all just below world class unfortunately and Kheideira isn't close. Honestly can't see us progressing to final with our current midfield unfortunately.

Yeah, if you offered me a runner up spot at this moment. I'd happily take it even with the heartbreak of another final loss. With that said, with all our injuries this season, im happy with a domestic double and ucl quarters, so anuything beyond this point is gravy.

 

[X Æ A-12]

Other than a 10 minute period in the first leg and a 15 minute period in the second leg Tottenham were dominating us.

Our midfield will be eaten alive if we come up against Real. Khediera is non existent. Our midfield is so distinctively average for a top European side. Matuidi, Pjanic and Costa are all just below world class unfortunately and Kheideira isn't close. Honestly can't see us progressing to final with our current midfield unfortunately.

Good thing you're back. Are the Manure fans still laughing their asses off at us over the Pogba deal you think?

 

[JUVESUPPORTER]

Good thing you're back. Are the Manure fans still laughing their asses off at us over the Pogba deal you think?

I would take him back in a heartbeat.

 

[soccerr9]

Just wanted to quote our little exchange before the game

You proved to be right! The irony is that the 4-4-2/4-2-4 that Allegri switched to with 30 minutes left was the same formation that caused Juve so many issues in the first leg. The biggest difference is Poch using Son in a 4-3-3 in the 2nd leg compared to the narrow 4-2-3-1 with Lamela that he employed in Turin.

Allegri going with a 4-2-4 in Turin vs Poch's narrow 4-2-3-1 meant that Juve were overrun centrally 2 vs 4.
Allegri going with 3-5-2 at Wembley vs the 4-3-3 meant that Juve were overrun out wide particularly on Son's side. Son played so high (essentially as an extra forward rather than wide player) that Costa couldn't get deep enough to track him. This left Barzagli 1v 1. Thankfully Allegri saw this and changed with 30 minutes left. By shifting back to a 4-4-2/4-2-4 Tottenham's wing play was covered while Sandro and Costa were 1v1 with their fullbacks. This created all sorts of space for Dybala and Higuaín to combine centrally.

Pocettino deserves credit for setting up his teams in a way that contrasted what Allegri wanted to do. Allegri deserves credit for the biggest adjustment of the tie with 30 minutes to go. It also helps to have Dybala in 4-4-2 since he is essentially an extra attacking CM compared to Mandzukic.