[Champions League] BATE Borisov - Juventus (30 September, 2008) (2 Viewers)

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,412
Firstly, I think its rather unfair to blame Ranieri in this, as dissapointed as I am. The reason being I'm sure at least 95% of us licked our lips and thought we'd trounce BATE when we saw the line up, probably the most attacking lay out we've ever lined out personell wise ( save a couple of 4-3-3 games of which playing a 4-3-3 yesterday would have had horrific consequences). I'm positive few people expected BATE to come at us like that even though they were home.
I feel the need to point out (again), that formation and tactics are two different things, but the coach is responsible for both of them.
CR was heavily criticized for his selection and fielded a more popular, by public demand team, but the orders they had, our tactical plan and the way they were deployed its still the coaches decision...
We should use this team against serie A defensive teams, against this particularly pacey team, we should use another approach and that was visible in the first 5'. We should suffocate their midfield and leave them no space to run down our flanks. Then methodically and carefully, build up our attack based on technique and not speed, so we would cancel their advantage and use our superior material more efficiently.
And then wait for their weak defense to make a mistake.
Thats a typical approach to beat inexperienced teams like BATE,
quite the opposite tactics needed in serie A
So we cannot be happy only because CR chose the player he used in some serie A games, against some certain teams, he made a mistake there not fielding them and he made another today fielding them.
He has material superior to Bate's and he miserable failed to use this superiority to his advantage, coaches with superior teams have no excuses, the other coaches are playing with a handicap against, you have to screw up bad to lose when the odds are with you, minor tactical mistakes are excused by the players superior skill to make up for them.
BATE imposed their play and tempo and we couldnt react.
When all of the players fails, it means there is no individual fault, but a collective one, guess who is responsible for the entire teams gameplay,
thats right the coach. We have no tactical plan, our teamwork. The players do not have clear orders, they are not trained to do smth properly and when the opponents pressures them, they dont know what to do, it is a typical symptom our team displays, for ages...

The first half despite ending 2-2 was an utter nightmare. Its been a long time since a team marauded us like that - pressurising every one in the team when they got the ball. When we've lost previously, we just sucked in terms of ideas going foward but yesterday, we were just plain owned in the 1st half. Last time I felt that way was the 2-0 at Highbury. Camo and Sissoko were seeing major ass flames in the middle coz their 5 man midfield was everywhere
Everyone at the back had a bad day. Chiellini looked like he had weights in his boots. It also didnt help that DC was upfront the majority of the time causing Giorgio to be sucked out of the centre.
Typical symptoms against pacey teams, but the creativity issue is permanent and Giovinco's presence it is not only because of the use of inappropriate material, but also because of inappropriate tactics.
DC was fast enough to run back and follow their right wing backs and RMs, most of the threats that came to our left rear flank where CMs slipping between our DM-CMs and drifting wide. Luckily Neddy realized that thing and positioned himself at the right place to help defensively.
I dont think that CR ordred that, because Neddy was always good at that, no matter who the coach was...
Maybe the correct tactical approach was to use Iaq as the upper forward, Giovinco at the left flank, LM, with Neddy at the center, LCM, to cover and support him,
so that DC will focus at defending and move DP, as SS, in front of Camo, so that Camo will help Sissoko more, RDM, to defend more efficiently, rather than having to cover the entire midfield by himself!
That would balance things and fill up some wholes in the midfield, without sacrificing anything from creativity...
I'm a bit aggrieved that Marchisio came on for Camo. Id have prefered hin to come on for Nedved but before the knives come out for Ranieri again, we needed a space marker in the centre. Poulsen or Zanetti would have been a necessity today. And as CR rightyly pointed out, their RB wasnt pushing foward a lot so it was more necessary to have the less defensively capable Giovinco on the right. I think Momo was great in the 2nd half regardoless of what Ive been reading he cane into the picture better. Giovinco is just plain tight. I was telling my friend on Saturday that hes better than Pato because his offensive decision making is superb
Maybe CR wanted to punish Camo for his late appearances, from all our players, i expected from Camo much much more, because se is still young enough, pacey, agile, very good with and without the ball, his exp and skills can help him adapt to practically any role. I dont whats bugging him, but we need the old good Camo asap.
Marchisio was brought with fresh orders and new ideas, but i think we would rather use the trident at this point, all or nothing, Iaq was fit today, DP eager and Amauri could handle the last minutes with ease. Even Giovinco could be used as the 3rd forward for a few minutes, without making any subs...
IQ did his job and I'm happy with how he played despite the falling invisible in the 2nd half. DP was selfish on too many ocassions today. I might have blown a fuse coz of him. Very frustrating
Iaq was finally clinical with his chances, he is not the fighter he used to be last year though, there has to be some lost of determination/focus and unrest in our team, someone has to fix this, fast, maybe there are some changes bound to happen...soon...
DP was never selfish and i was puzzled to see him acting like that, but that was not the first time and suddenly i realized why he behaved like that.
Atm, he is best available finisher we have and he is ordered and untrusted the role of the finisher, being our most creative players however he feels the tactical need to do everything though, he is our captain, our most creative player and our finisher, all this responsibilities suffocates him,
players are advised to pass him the ball, even if they are in a better firing position so that he can use his killer instincts, but when he tracks back to support our build up of the game, he is most of the time out of effective range and because there is no one else to turn into, tactically, his only option is to try a desperate shoot, which becoming even more frustrating as the time passes. The more minutes pass without scoring, the more DP feels that he has try more shots, even with less chances, this why he is losing his focus and his tactical awareness and ability to set up players.
He is not confident of our finishers upfront and our creativity capabilities behind him and this is the very reason why he is so efficient when fielded behind/besides Trezequet. As a character DP would always put our team's interest above him, he demonstrated this over a decade, but the problem is, how our team's interest is going to be served better.
I believe this issue would be addressed with the use of the above mentioned tactical scheme...
 

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Alessandro

Senior Member
Sep 13, 2002
1,210
Tell us about it :)
How did the fan react to the draw? ecstatic I suppose?
Oh, Yes. ;-)
"BATE - Champions!" slogans was every were in city after the game.

But after first 29 minutes the win was expected, but Juve is Juve, and draw is good result too.

ps. Btw, it was first champions league match in Belarus in history. And that was the good start for my country.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
52,556
PS. I blame partly blame Allen because he is the one who said they were crap. For me they were completely the opposite offensively at least :spliff:
That team yesterday was the exact opposite of what i saw before and what everyone who watched their matches with Levski saw from them.
They were a team dominated for 90 minutes, making silly mistakes at the back.

Are we so bad so we made them look so good, Did they suddenly hit form and learn how to play football or were the matches against Levski just a coincidence.....that i can't tell you.
No matter which one is true, it's humiliating not to beat and to be outplayed for big parts of the match by a team like BATE, no matter how well they played yesterday.
 

Albertmare

Idea Maker
Mar 24, 2006
13,918
Hi, all!
I'm from Minsk, Belarus, but I'm Juve fan ;-). I was there, on the stadium.
Sissoko - very good game. Full control in the center. MoM for my opinion.
Giovinco- too modestly, but effective. He have to play more often.
Iaquinta - 2 goals it's always good for striker.
The rest - nothing interesting :(
Juve have to develop the game...
Give us some pic , you stingy :D
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
52,556
I say let's wait and see what BATE will do against Zenit, maybe they're not that bad, after all they were not destroyed by Madrid in Madrid.
Yes, our fate might not be only in our hands now. If we don't beat Real at least once or if we don't win more than 2 pts, we'll have to rely on BATE taking a point or two from Zenit.


Here is the tricky part of the schedule (we made it look even more trickier):

Lets say we don't beat Real at all and we play 2 draws. In that case we'll have 6 pts after 4 rounds. No matter if Zenit beats BATE twice, a draw away to Zenit will be enough for us because we'll have a better H2H with Zenit.

BUT if we don't take at least 2 points from Real and Zenit beats BATE twice then our match away to Zenit will be a MUST WIN.
We'll have 4 or 5 pts while Zenit will have 6 points and in the last round Zenit will play away to the already qualified Real Madrid.

Third option - we don't beat Real and we lose both matches. Zenit wins only 4 points with BATE. In this case Zenit-Juve will be a must win for Zenit but if they beat us then they'll overtake us on the standings and their last match will be away to Real Madrid, again with Real already winning the first place.

It's really tough.
That's why we MUST beat Real Madrid at least once. Not only because it will bring us more points but because Real will not be able to secure the first place before the last round and they will not be in a position to let Zenit beat them.
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,412
That team yesterday was the exact opposite of what i saw before and what everyone who watched their matches with Levski saw from them.
They were a team dominated for 90 minutes, making silly mistakes at the back.

Are we so bad so we made them look so good, Did they suddenly hit form and learn how to play football or were the matches against Levski just a coincidence.....that i can't tell you.
No matter which one is true, it's humiliating not to beat and to be outplayed for big parts of the match by a team like BATE, no matter how well they played yesterday.
They where extra motivated to be a historic first CL game against the legendary Juve and we played like were forced to play a fame we shouldnt,
we underestimated them and considered this a walk in the park, but to take some on the Cl, you need to earn them!
Its so sad to seem our team already showing such arrogance, despite that long break from this competition, this magnified our permanent issues...
 

icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
34,963
Yes, our fate might not be only in our hands now. If we don't beat Real at least once or if we don't win more than 2 pts, we'll have to rely on BATE taking a point or two from Zenit.


Here is the tricky part of the schedule (we made it look even more trickier):

Lets say we don't beat Real at all and we play 2 draws. In that case we'll have 6 pts after 4 rounds. No matter if Zenit beats BATE twice, a draw away to Zenit will be enough for us because we'll have a better H2H with Zenit.

BUT if we don't take at least 2 points from Real and Zenit beats BATE twice then our match away to Zenit will be a MUST WIN.
We'll have 4 or 5 pts while Zenit will have 6 points and in the last round Zenit will play away to the already qualified Real Madrid.

Third option - we don't beat Real and we lose both matches. Zenit wins only 4 points with BATE. In this case Zenit-Juve will be a must win for Zenit but if they beat us then they'll overtake us on the standings and their last match will be away to Real Madrid, again with Real already winning the first place.

It's really tough.
That's why we MUST beat Real Madrid at least once. Not only because it will bring us more points but because Real will not be able to secure the first place before the last round and they will not be in a position to let Zenit beat them.
lets hope BATE steals some points off Zenit and we steal some off Real... we should be able to get some points off Real at least at home... and that we play well against Zenit and BATE at home... the only positive I can think of this season is that we still haven't been beaten in a competitive game... hope it stays like that for at least quite some time..
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
52,556
lets hope BATE steals some points off Zenit and we steal some off Real.
Yeah, this would be a perfect scenario.
If we beat Real once and we lose the other match, while at the same time Bate gets one draw with Zenit, then we'll have 7 pts while Zenit will have 4 pts.
In this situation we can even allow a 2:1 or 3:2 defeat away to Zenit and go through on away goals. (of course, we will have to beat BATE in the last round and not risk anything).

Lots of options as you can see but we made life difficult to ourselves. If we won yesterday then even with 2 defeats against Real and two Zenit wins against BATE, we'd have been equal on points with Zenit and a draw in St Petersburg would have been a good result for us.
 

Mesh3lovic

Forza Molinaro
Oct 1, 2008
147
Hi every one

yesterday de ceglie was suck :(

chiellini always covers his place nedved even sissoko

the second goal was his fault

he is a pooooooooor defender

I miss Molinaro yesterday :(

Moli is a good defender and very fast player
 

Mike-e-y

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2004
11,090
Hi every one

yesterday de ceglie was suck :(

chiellini always covers his place nedved even sissoko

the second goal was his fault

he is a pooooooooor defender

I miss Molinaro yesterday :(

Moli is a good defender and very fast player
YEAH!!! Molinaro is the best defender in the world ever, his offensive crosses which go to the oppositions strikers are a particular highlight of his excellence!!!!!!
 

Ken

The Dutch Touch
Aug 17, 2007
13,340
We just made things really difficult on ourselves in this group... I can't believe how poor we were. Now our faith lies in the hands of Madrid and BATE, because if we don't start winning soon I don't see us take any points in Petersburg nor Madrid.

All we can hope for is that we beat Madrid at home and BATE take points off Zenit... and even then, like Alen pointed out, Madrid would probably already be qualified as 1st and Zenit might just take the win in that last game pushin us back to 3rd in that group.
 

Brixity

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2006
1,332
@ Cronios

Well posted. I agree with the bulk of your narrative. Its just that I cant help feel like BATE performed FAR above the expectations everyone had.

Also, everyone in my opinion played in a position in which they've played before and performed well in that position before imo. And this only really applies to Camo and Gio.

I dont know how we'll do against Madrid coz the thing we usually had over them is hustle and grind but they seem to be able to do this nowadays. We'll wait and see
 

cyril

Let's roll
Jul 6, 2006
2,689
“We are growing and that is the important thing. Of course playing against a side that ends its season in a month and is at peak fitness really tested us.”

With that ideology, he'd settle for a draw against a Togolese team, since their league is about to finish.

I used to like him, now he gets on my nerves.
 

Mesh3lovic

Forza Molinaro
Oct 1, 2008
147
are u claudio ranieri?
no i'm not .. but i'm sure that he is better than u :rofl:


Likely I understand nothing in football
Thanx God u know that ;)

YEAH!!! Molinaro is the best defender in the world ever, his offensive crosses which go to the oppositions strikers are a particular highlight of his excellence!!!!!!
crosses are not the case !

Molinaro knows how to cover his area not like the poor de ceglie :sick:

de ceglie was a highway for Bate players :(

Molinaro Roles

Forza Molinaro :jvefan:
 

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