That is because you initially set the bar too low and your expectations from the team were skewed (like most of us), due to failures in the previous few season.
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Antonio Conte (31 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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We went through this already before. Pirlo was even more finished than Seedorf was at Milan and Allegri didnt manage to get anything out of him. Conte rejuvenated him and built the team around him and Prandelli followed suit with Italy.
Marchisio was an absolute nobody without a single decent half season under his belt. If anything Giovinco was seen as the really promising one and marchisio was only seen as a squad filler. The current season is his second great season in all of his career if you haven't noticed and the heights he reached since Conte were much better than anything he did under any other coach before then.
Barzagli was even more of a nobody that he couldnt get a starting spot with Wolfsburg in his last two seasons. Prior to 2008 he was at best an Azzuri bench player and between 2008 and 2012 he wasn't even picked for the national team at all in any capacity. Its only after consistent performances under Conte did he become a first team player for the Azzuri.
I dont think I should say anything about Bonucci. Unless you were blind you should know that he was a terrible defender and it took Conte a lot of time to get anything out of him.
Your judgment of the squad is completely based on retrospect rather than on the context back then. Its as wrong as saying that Buffon and Casillas are not great goal keepers because of their current form while ignoring their past. Milan's players were established, experienced and were already champions before under the same coach. They had no players that needed to rediscover themselves, they had no youngsters that never had a top level season yet, they didnt get a new coach, they didnt add multiple new players to their squad the way we did, they had an on fire Ibra that was one of the best 5 players in the world. They had the best defender in the world.
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And when Agnelli says we won the scudetto 3 years ahead of plan?
Marchisio was an absolute nobody without a single decent half season under his belt. If anything Giovinco was seen as the really promising one and marchisio was only seen as a squad filler. The current season is his second great season in all of his career if you haven't noticed and the heights he reached since Conte were much better than anything he did under any other coach before then.
Barzagli was even more of a nobody that he couldnt get a starting spot with Wolfsburg in his last two seasons. Prior to 2008 he was at best an Azzuri bench player and between 2008 and 2012 he wasn't even picked for the national team at all in any capacity. Its only after consistent performances under Conte did he become a first team player for the Azzuri.
I dont think I should say anything about Bonucci. Unless you were blind you should know that he was a terrible defender and it took Conte a lot of time to get anything out of him.
Your judgment of the squad is completely based on retrospect rather than on the context back then. Its as wrong as saying that Buffon and Casillas are not great goal keepers because of their current form while ignoring their past. Milan's players were established, experienced and were already champions before under the same coach. They had no players that needed to rediscover themselves, they had no youngsters that never had a top level season yet, they didnt get a new coach, they didnt add multiple new players to their squad the way we did, they had an on fire Ibra that was one of the best 5 players in the world. They had the best defender in the world.
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And when Agnelli says we won the scudetto 3 years ahead of plan?
Pirlo was plagued with injuries in his last season with Milan, was 3-4 months on the sidelines iirc. We made shrewed business there, as he got back some of his form, but that was far cry from Pirlo between 2002-2006. Conte did help him, but Pirlo more than anything needed change of scenery.
Marchisio was starting CM for Italian NT or thereabout, so wasn't exactly a nobody as you've put it. I rate currrent season more than 2011/12, as he's been consistent throughout whole year.
Wat?! Barzagli was starting CB for Wolfsburg, missed very few games during his time there. In any case most CBs peak at 30es.
Actually this has been Bonucci's best season, so credit goes to Allegri. In the previous few years one blunder per game was his standard contribution.
Milan had old, decaying team, although some classy individuals like Ibra and TS, mediocre bench (unless you rated players like Aquilani, Antonini Mesbah or Flamini), no young players that were expected to break through in subsequent seasons, had burden of playing in the CL, while the same core of the current team that have brought us to the semis, have also been pivotal in our scudetto triumph and in addition we had no European obligation to set us off from our path, which conicided with our lack of depth at that time. It is of no conicidence that these players still have an impact. Different coach, but players are still obtaining results. If Conte was the one responsible for them overperforming, then they'd get back to being mediocre this season, when according to many (especially you), inferior manager with lack of motivational skills took the reigns. You shamelessly claimed that current Inter's team is better than our in 2011/12, and this is where the dispute arises.
The point isn't to underestimate what Conte did, as I respect(ed) his work , but I think his biggest contribution was more related to setting the right mentality to the team rather than possessing tactical astuteness, and of course to negate blatant exaggeration where he takes all the credit. This is Juventus and we'll have few rough seasons every now and then due to circumstances mostly beyond our control, but eventually we'd hire some other coach and got back on the right track. The company of this magnitude is never solely dependant on individual.
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He (Agnelli) also gets the credit for that.
Marchisio was starting CM for Italian NT or thereabout, so wasn't exactly a nobody as you've put it. I rate currrent season more than 2011/12, as he's been consistent throughout whole year.
Wat?! Barzagli was starting CB for Wolfsburg, missed very few games during his time there. In any case most CBs peak at 30es.
Actually this has been Bonucci's best season, so credit goes to Allegri. In the previous few years one blunder per game was his standard contribution.
Milan had old, decaying team, although some classy individuals like Ibra and TS, mediocre bench (unless you rated players like Aquilani, Antonini Mesbah or Flamini), no young players that were expected to break through in subsequent seasons, had burden of playing in the CL, while the same core of the current team that have brought us to the semis, have also been pivotal in our scudetto triumph and in addition we had no European obligation to set us off from our path, which conicided with our lack of depth at that time. It is of no conicidence that these players still have an impact. Different coach, but players are still obtaining results. If Conte was the one responsible for them overperforming, then they'd get back to being mediocre this season, when according to many (especially you), inferior manager with lack of motivational skills took the reigns. You shamelessly claimed that current Inter's team is better than our in 2011/12, and this is where the dispute arises.
The point isn't to underestimate what Conte did, as I respect(ed) his work , but I think his biggest contribution was more related to setting the right mentality to the team rather than possessing tactical astuteness, and of course to negate blatant exaggeration where he takes all the credit. This is Juventus and we'll have few rough seasons every now and then due to circumstances mostly beyond our control, but eventually we'd hire some other coach and got back on the right track. The company of this magnitude is never solely dependant on individual.
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He (Agnelli) also gets the credit for that.
I just disagree with all the Conte bashing and In the same wane having Allegri on a pedestal. Both guys have done their jobs and rating one shouldn't constitute berating the other. Conte was a great man manager and less of a technician by the book which perhaps limited him in Europe, and Allegri, while a more astute tactician in the true sense of the word may not be able to repeat a season like this one because of his comparatively limited ability as a motivator. Hypothetical at this point but this is where we are with these two.
Conte could repeat domestic success based solely on that and I am forever grateful to him for pulling us out of the kind of rut that was getting detrimental for the club where even our champions like Del Piero, Buffon and co. couldn't salvage the situation. It needed his spirit to uplift the environment, we could've easily ended up like Liverpool have, with a few years in the wilderness.
Unfortunately though, Conte's strength is also his weakness. Impulsive and aggressive to the core, I think his fear of failure made him take some pretty short sighted decisions in the interest of his own career path and that of Juves. The way I see it, the serie a points record made it difficult for him to see past. And I think in a year he will regret having joined the Nazionale. Once again though, he was fully entitled to make the decision but I think it could've just been handled a little better with all involved. The same goes for him constantly laying the blame on the management for their inability to get him the players he wanted. I agreed with his need to take the club to the next level given we had achieved ahead of the curve, but I disagreed with the method of trying to go about it by making it ugly in the press. It was his way of creating an exit point for himself when things didn't work out.
Having said all that, he left me with more good memories than bad and I am forever thankful to him and can only salute his spirit for being what it is.
Allegri, on the other hand, has been great at adapting to the environment he found himself in. And has set himself up a great launchpad to be a coach who could give Juve another dimension in Europe, which not many treat coaches managed at their time in the club. And I'd really like to see that. I actually mentioned at the start of the season, that while I was unsure about another scudetto triumph, I saw him take us far in Europe and I'm glad that has been the case. Winning this scudetto would also perhaps buy him a couple of years without the pressure of that success via a vid cracking the CL code. This could well be the kind of marriage the Old Lady has been waiting for.
Conte could repeat domestic success based solely on that and I am forever grateful to him for pulling us out of the kind of rut that was getting detrimental for the club where even our champions like Del Piero, Buffon and co. couldn't salvage the situation. It needed his spirit to uplift the environment, we could've easily ended up like Liverpool have, with a few years in the wilderness.
Unfortunately though, Conte's strength is also his weakness. Impulsive and aggressive to the core, I think his fear of failure made him take some pretty short sighted decisions in the interest of his own career path and that of Juves. The way I see it, the serie a points record made it difficult for him to see past. And I think in a year he will regret having joined the Nazionale. Once again though, he was fully entitled to make the decision but I think it could've just been handled a little better with all involved. The same goes for him constantly laying the blame on the management for their inability to get him the players he wanted. I agreed with his need to take the club to the next level given we had achieved ahead of the curve, but I disagreed with the method of trying to go about it by making it ugly in the press. It was his way of creating an exit point for himself when things didn't work out.
Having said all that, he left me with more good memories than bad and I am forever thankful to him and can only salute his spirit for being what it is.
Allegri, on the other hand, has been great at adapting to the environment he found himself in. And has set himself up a great launchpad to be a coach who could give Juve another dimension in Europe, which not many treat coaches managed at their time in the club. And I'd really like to see that. I actually mentioned at the start of the season, that while I was unsure about another scudetto triumph, I saw him take us far in Europe and I'm glad that has been the case. Winning this scudetto would also perhaps buy him a couple of years without the pressure of that success via a vid cracking the CL code. This could well be the kind of marriage the Old Lady has been waiting for.
Lets just not fuck up next season and buy good players this summer. We have the money now. We came out of the financial crisis, so its time we open our wallets and dig deep. Our management showed many times that you can find good, solid, even (potential) WC players for low prices, but we need to spend big now, its our chance to reclaim our rightful place in Europe. We have the quality, but we need to take this shit to another level next season. Transfer bombs, thats what i want!
Yep
Conte is like a guy who invented something, Allegri is the guy who came along and seen the invention, that he could never have invented himself. But knew exactly how to improve on it
You need both to get the optimal results. Allegri put his own touches on Conte's team. Something Conte was unwilling to change himself.
Conte is like a guy who invented something, Allegri is the guy who came along and seen the invention, that he could never have invented himself. But knew exactly how to improve on it
You need both to get the optimal results. Allegri put his own touches on Conte's team. Something Conte was unwilling to change himself.
