People who constantly bitch about Allegri , won’t say shit about Conte ?
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Antonio Conte (277 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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Whats very interesting is that when he is motivated and new in the job he is capable of convincing limited players that they can punch over their weight and surprise everyone but when he grows tired and starts fighting with management over transfers, he starts undermining the quality of what he has and sets very mediocre goals to them. This too gets reflected on the squad mentality. They start as ultra motivated when he is on good terms with management and they surprise everyone, but then when he falls out with management they start believing (like him) that they cant achieve much without better transfers and they get stuck at the same level and stop progressing.
His team's performance is a reflection of his mood.
His team's performance is a reflection of his mood.
I doubt he is still firing them up week in week out with motivational speeches. It seems he himself loses motivation once he doesnt get the transfers that he wants and that spills over into the team themselves.
Like he starts out his tenure super charged and motivated. The club has faith in him and the future has a lot of promise. He starts with a mediocre squad that he gets to over-perform and punch above their weight and so confidence (including his own) become sky high and he sets the expectation in his team's minds that they can win a trophy or two and they rise up to that and achieve it.
Then summer comes and he tells the club I can take the team to the next level but I need some expensive transfers. I made this team punch above their weight but if you want more, then sign me XYZ players. The club says no we cant afford that. You have to do with what you have got + 1 or 2 okay signings. He doesnt feel this is enough and they have a fall out and he goes into the new season believing deep down that his squad is not good enough.
Then when a few results go against his team, he starts voicing his complaints to the media that he asked for more and didnt get what he asked for and that the club should have listened. The deep down belief becomes public and naturally spills over into the team. the squad starts believing that they are not good enough because they know he thinks that, and so his motivational speeches either become ineffective or maybe he even stops doing them. He lowers the expectations that they have to rise up to and so they deliver that lower expectation and they stop going above and beyond.
Then comes a coach like Allegri that tells them that while they might not be as powerful as the best teams, they can put up a serious challenge and achieve lots of great things. He sets the expectation high again and so players rise up to that level and go above and beyond. They are not good enough to be the best but they realize that if they go above and beyond and with some little luck they can get really close to the powerful clubs.
Its all about belief. If your team genuinely believe that they can reach a high level. If you have buy-in as their manager in the goals that you set and these goals arent insane then they will rise up to it. If you set very high expectations/goals but they dont buy into it and think you are delusional they will crash miserably because the goal will just be a massive source of stress and anxiety instead of a motivator.
If you set low expectations on even a top player, if that player isnt an egotistical maniac like Ronaldo with so much self-belief, your top player will deliver at this low level expectation. Arsenal is a club whose players are victim of low expectations. Wenger doesnt instill belief in them that they can achieve great things even though they have a good squad. When they are close to the top, they never believe that they are good enough to be champions so they choke and default to 4th. The expectation from the fanbase is a source of stress and anxiety to them so they always fuck it up. They (including Wenger) dont believe that they are genuine champions.
at the same time they know that the club doesnt expect anything more than top 4 so they deliver to that level. This season I am not even sure they believe they are good enough for top 4.
Anyway, when Conte stops believing that his squad can achieve greater things (due to not getting the transfers he wants), he lowers expectations for his team and so they perform to that lower level. So when this happens, either sack him and get in someone with more belief, or back him up and get him the players he wants. My boss cant motivate me to do great things if I over heard him saying that I am really not good enough.
Like he starts out his tenure super charged and motivated. The club has faith in him and the future has a lot of promise. He starts with a mediocre squad that he gets to over-perform and punch above their weight and so confidence (including his own) become sky high and he sets the expectation in his team's minds that they can win a trophy or two and they rise up to that and achieve it.
Then summer comes and he tells the club I can take the team to the next level but I need some expensive transfers. I made this team punch above their weight but if you want more, then sign me XYZ players. The club says no we cant afford that. You have to do with what you have got + 1 or 2 okay signings. He doesnt feel this is enough and they have a fall out and he goes into the new season believing deep down that his squad is not good enough.
Then when a few results go against his team, he starts voicing his complaints to the media that he asked for more and didnt get what he asked for and that the club should have listened. The deep down belief becomes public and naturally spills over into the team. the squad starts believing that they are not good enough because they know he thinks that, and so his motivational speeches either become ineffective or maybe he even stops doing them. He lowers the expectations that they have to rise up to and so they deliver that lower expectation and they stop going above and beyond.
Then comes a coach like Allegri that tells them that while they might not be as powerful as the best teams, they can put up a serious challenge and achieve lots of great things. He sets the expectation high again and so players rise up to that level and go above and beyond. They are not good enough to be the best but they realize that if they go above and beyond and with some little luck they can get really close to the powerful clubs.
Its all about belief. If your team genuinely believe that they can reach a high level. If you have buy-in as their manager in the goals that you set and these goals arent insane then they will rise up to it. If you set very high expectations/goals but they dont buy into it and think you are delusional they will crash miserably because the goal will just be a massive source of stress and anxiety instead of a motivator.
If you set low expectations on even a top player, if that player isnt an egotistical maniac like Ronaldo with so much self-belief, your top player will deliver at this low level expectation. Arsenal is a club whose players are victim of low expectations. Wenger doesnt instill belief in them that they can achieve great things even though they have a good squad. When they are close to the top, they never believe that they are good enough to be champions so they choke and default to 4th. The expectation from the fanbase is a source of stress and anxiety to them so they always fuck it up. They (including Wenger) dont believe that they are genuine champions.
at the same time they know that the club doesnt expect anything more than top 4 so they deliver to that level. This season I am not even sure they believe they are good enough for top 4.
Anyway, when Conte stops believing that his squad can achieve greater things (due to not getting the transfers he wants), he lowers expectations for his team and so they perform to that lower level. So when this happens, either sack him and get in someone with more belief, or back him up and get him the players he wants. My boss cant motivate me to do great things if I over heard him saying that I am really not good enough.
Chelsea spent 200 million on 5 players this summer. 140 million on 4 players the summer before. They just spent 55 million in this winter mercato on 3 players.
That's 12 players brought in for 400 million during Conte's 2 year tenure. 7 of those players cost over 35 million. So let's not act like Chelsea is only bringing in 1-2 cheap signings each year for Conte.
In that time, they have also only sold 1 player Conte wanted to keep. Matic. Who wanted to leave. Diego Costa leaving was entirely on the poor relationship between him and Conte.
That's 12 players brought in for 400 million during Conte's 2 year tenure. 7 of those players cost over 35 million. So let's not act like Chelsea is only bringing in 1-2 cheap signings each year for Conte.
In that time, they have also only sold 1 player Conte wanted to keep. Matic. Who wanted to leave. Diego Costa leaving was entirely on the poor relationship between him and Conte.
Put it in context. "Austerity" for an EPL club wanting to top the EPL is different from Austerity in the context of Serie A. He had a thinner squad than his competitors and yet they bought more and bought a higher caliber of players than Chelsea did.
So yes he is not getting the same financial backing that the two clubs who are now doing better than his are getting. I imagine if you add wages too the gap gets bigger.
Also my point is that not getting what he thinks he needs to grow the team, makes him lower expectations of his team and that gets reflected in their performance. Thats the main point
So yes he is not getting the same financial backing that the two clubs who are now doing better than his are getting. I imagine if you add wages too the gap gets bigger.
Also my point is that not getting what he thinks he needs to grow the team, makes him lower expectations of his team and that gets reflected in their performance. Thats the main point
I think and have always thought Conte is a fantastic manager. Here, for Italy, and at Chelsea.
However, just because one is a fan of Conte doesn't mean everything he does has to be defended. He very clearly acts like a petulant child throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get exactly what he wants from. He does this with regards to transfer windows. He did it with regards to his extra training camps that teams refused to release players to for the national team.
His passion and fire, and ability to drive a squad above and beyond are incredible. But he should also grow up and work with what he gets from management. No, 400 million spent on transfers in two years is not peanuts, regardless of league, and regardless of sales. Only one starter was sold in that time without his blessing. Just needs to put his head down, get back to work, and stop undervaluing (and through that undermining) his own players and squads.
However, just because one is a fan of Conte doesn't mean everything he does has to be defended. He very clearly acts like a petulant child throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get exactly what he wants from. He does this with regards to transfer windows. He did it with regards to his extra training camps that teams refused to release players to for the national team.
His passion and fire, and ability to drive a squad above and beyond are incredible. But he should also grow up and work with what he gets from management. No, 400 million spent on transfers in two years is not peanuts, regardless of league, and regardless of sales. Only one starter was sold in that time without his blessing. Just needs to put his head down, get back to work, and stop undervaluing (and through that undermining) his own players and squads.
If I were him, I'd do that till the end of the season then have another real talk with management and if they don't make guarantees then quit early in pre-season. That way the season isn't harmed in the process.
I was never bothered by him leaving us in pre-season (didnt offend me) It was the right thing for him to do if he is not getting what he thinks he needs to progress. I was bothered by how he undermined the squad in his final season (the 50 Euros comment) which showed as lack of confidence in our CL performances that year.
It would have been better if he wasnt very vocal about transfer policies till the season was over and then left at the end of the season or early pre-season and explained his reasons to the media/fans. Chelsea would have still trailed City who are just too good at the moment but they would have been on par with UTD at least.
Allegri is the opposite about transfers. Berlusconi sold his entire squad and he was silent till he got the sack (even afterwards I believe). That is childish obedience as well.
I was never bothered by him leaving us in pre-season (didnt offend me) It was the right thing for him to do if he is not getting what he thinks he needs to progress. I was bothered by how he undermined the squad in his final season (the 50 Euros comment) which showed as lack of confidence in our CL performances that year.
It would have been better if he wasnt very vocal about transfer policies till the season was over and then left at the end of the season or early pre-season and explained his reasons to the media/fans. Chelsea would have still trailed City who are just too good at the moment but they would have been on par with UTD at least.
Allegri is the opposite about transfers. Berlusconi sold his entire squad and he was silent till he got the sack (even afterwards I believe). That is childish obedience as well.
Conte is going to run out of teams to manage if he continues with that mentality. The only teams he could get any target he wants are Psg and Real. I think he might potentially get to manage those mentioned sides one day however both of those sides have big ambitions in CL (im convinced Emery will get sacked if he doesnt win the CL soon). And Conte isnt exactly proven in CL. Teams with lesser finances like Dortmund and Atletico have reached finals.
Hazard is better than anyone Manutd got. I would take Morata over Lukaku any day.
This season has showed that Conte cant always get the best out of his players. Ive heard this Bakayoko who won french league played CL semis has been a big disappointment. But then they have Kante.
The only thing in defence you can say is that Man City has the resources and bench for depth and really big squad.
I dont find Man utd particularly amazing at all. If anything Chelsea has more proven winners in the squad (Kante; Hazard etc). Most of UTD players havent won shit apart from Pogba and Matic. Someone just recently pointed out the nobody back 4 Man Utd starts these days. De gea has been the big difference maker in terms where Utd would actually be without him.
While the core of Chelsea (keeper, midfield, Hazard) have won 2 league titles in last 4 years. Utd hasnt won sh-t. Please. Europe League is nothing for a club of the size of Man utd. Its a competition for lesser european sides with lesser resources like Sevilla, Leverkusen, potentially the likes of Lazio if Italy sides didnt suck so much in europe.
Conte and Chelsea handles the Costa case badly and Morata is not proven 20+ striker.
Hazard is better than anyone Manutd got. I would take Morata over Lukaku any day.
This season has showed that Conte cant always get the best out of his players. Ive heard this Bakayoko who won french league played CL semis has been a big disappointment. But then they have Kante.
The only thing in defence you can say is that Man City has the resources and bench for depth and really big squad.
I dont find Man utd particularly amazing at all. If anything Chelsea has more proven winners in the squad (Kante; Hazard etc). Most of UTD players havent won shit apart from Pogba and Matic. Someone just recently pointed out the nobody back 4 Man Utd starts these days. De gea has been the big difference maker in terms where Utd would actually be without him.
While the core of Chelsea (keeper, midfield, Hazard) have won 2 league titles in last 4 years. Utd hasnt won sh-t. Please. Europe League is nothing for a club of the size of Man utd. Its a competition for lesser european sides with lesser resources like Sevilla, Leverkusen, potentially the likes of Lazio if Italy sides didnt suck so much in europe.
Conte and Chelsea handles the Costa case badly and Morata is not proven 20+ striker.
I dont think Chelsea's squad is better than UTD at all. Lukaku is a proven goals scorer in the EPL for multiple seasons, morata is not. I'd take morata for CL games but in the EPL Lukaku has been banging the goals for years now. Miki was the best midfielder in the bundesliga. Pogba is one hell of a world class player if used right. Mata used to be Chelsea's best player. If anyone is not getting the most out his players its Mou. Almost every single player he bought used to be better before they joined him including non world class players like Darmian and Shaw. Lets see what Sanchez does in this squad. Chelsea seriously lack in depth as well.
You also didnt count lots of players who won in the past for United. Ibra obviously but also Valencia, Young, Smalling and Jones under Fergie. Mata won the CL with Chelsea and a Europa League there too + some cups.
Apart from Bakayoko, who would you say is worse under Conte then they used to be pre-conte. Cahil, Luiz, Christensen, Moses, Alonso and Azpi are all a LOT better than they were pre-Conte. Hazard has improved too and so did Pedro.
City > UTD > Chelsea is to me the clear ranking in squad quality. Chelsea caused a surprise last year while UTD seriously under performed. This year both UTD and chelsea are under performing.
You also didnt count lots of players who won in the past for United. Ibra obviously but also Valencia, Young, Smalling and Jones under Fergie. Mata won the CL with Chelsea and a Europa League there too + some cups.
Apart from Bakayoko, who would you say is worse under Conte then they used to be pre-conte. Cahil, Luiz, Christensen, Moses, Alonso and Azpi are all a LOT better than they were pre-Conte. Hazard has improved too and so did Pedro.
City > UTD > Chelsea is to me the clear ranking in squad quality. Chelsea caused a surprise last year while UTD seriously under performed. This year both UTD and chelsea are under performing.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...erachieving-with-chelsea-claims-antonio-conte
Overachieving?
[Enter Nicolas Cage gif here]
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Please. Dont let the hype influence your judgement. Utd squad is not better. De gea is the main difference maker on terms were united would be without him.
How many players you would take from Utd or Chelsea to Juve?
Maybe Pogba
Matic
De gea if Buffon retires.
How many from Chelsea?
Courtuis is on same level with De gea
Kante for sure right?
Hazard no brainer
Azpiliguetta for RB
Morata for nostalgia
Ok i forgot Alexis but i was looking at season from the start.
Oh Azpi was class already on Mou return season to Chelsea. Stop making these big lists of players who Conte supposedly improved. I was talking SPECIFICALLY this season. See Bakayoko. Maybe even Morata as he has been hot and cold.
If we talk in general plenty of the names you mentioned already did great before. Luiz has had love and hate relationship. He isnt starting for Conte this season is he? Christensen was highly rated young defender in Germany.
Cahill and Luiz partnership won CL in 2012. Cahill was rock solid on Mou return win epl season. You make it sound like Conte took over a side with nobodies.
Anyway my point was Conte lost that touch to lift players this season. You can add this defeatist mentality aspect into this cause he didnt get his big expensive toys in the summer (wanted Naingollan got Bakayoko, wanted Sandro etc). This season has a lost in summer feel to it. Like he knew. They already talked in media in august of finish top 4 rather than defend league. What message that sends to players? Conte publically basically harms his own players. As in i need upgrade this and that. You just won epl. Now suddenly these players not good enough.
Conte has made some mistakes these past 6 months.
Lukaku is overhyped crap. Lukaku would never start for proven CL ambition team like Barca, Real, Bayern.
Do you watch epl? Lukaku goes missing in big games. Just lost to Tottenham 2:0. Then scores against the Westbroms of this world and hype train starts.
At least with Morata i know he delivered here in big games. Lukaku would shit his pants and hoof it over the bar vs the Reals and Napolis of this world.
I questioned this in the summer already. Lukaku is not a signing for a big CL ambition side.
No point talking about Zlatan. He is finished. He suffered major injury. They already talk about him going to MLS.
Overachieving?
[Enter Nicolas Cage gif here]
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Please. Dont let the hype influence your judgement. Utd squad is not better. De gea is the main difference maker on terms were united would be without him.
How many players you would take from Utd or Chelsea to Juve?
Maybe Pogba
Matic
De gea if Buffon retires.
How many from Chelsea?
Courtuis is on same level with De gea
Kante for sure right?
Hazard no brainer
Azpiliguetta for RB
Morata for nostalgia
Ok i forgot Alexis but i was looking at season from the start.
Oh Azpi was class already on Mou return season to Chelsea. Stop making these big lists of players who Conte supposedly improved. I was talking SPECIFICALLY this season. See Bakayoko. Maybe even Morata as he has been hot and cold.
If we talk in general plenty of the names you mentioned already did great before. Luiz has had love and hate relationship. He isnt starting for Conte this season is he? Christensen was highly rated young defender in Germany.
Cahill and Luiz partnership won CL in 2012. Cahill was rock solid on Mou return win epl season. You make it sound like Conte took over a side with nobodies.
Anyway my point was Conte lost that touch to lift players this season. You can add this defeatist mentality aspect into this cause he didnt get his big expensive toys in the summer (wanted Naingollan got Bakayoko, wanted Sandro etc). This season has a lost in summer feel to it. Like he knew. They already talked in media in august of finish top 4 rather than defend league. What message that sends to players? Conte publically basically harms his own players. As in i need upgrade this and that. You just won epl. Now suddenly these players not good enough.
Conte has made some mistakes these past 6 months.
Lukaku is overhyped crap. Lukaku would never start for proven CL ambition team like Barca, Real, Bayern.
Do you watch epl? Lukaku goes missing in big games. Just lost to Tottenham 2:0. Then scores against the Westbroms of this world and hype train starts.
At least with Morata i know he delivered here in big games. Lukaku would shit his pants and hoof it over the bar vs the Reals and Napolis of this world.
I questioned this in the summer already. Lukaku is not a signing for a big CL ambition side.
No point talking about Zlatan. He is finished. He suffered major injury. They already talk about him going to MLS.
