Able Xavier Converts to Islam (18 Viewers)

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Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,480
I don't think he was fighting (I might easily be wrong here). I think he was just there, but not fighting in his old age.
There are many similar examples in history about the elderly watching the battles but I only know about 1 completely crazy Illyrian in the 4th century BC who was actually fighting and leading his soldiers even in his 80's.
Didnt Parmenion do that too? (man have this man gotten too little credit in history), and bit more murky, but Leonidas too?

And whats the Illyrians name? :D Sounds like good material for Frank Miller, hehe.


Btw, I agree with your earlier post about sources, in general very good point and absolute necessity when recording history, but in this case, reading and hearing about shi'as view of him, they basically villafied him in a quite exaggerated and clear way, the biasm coming off rather clearly. I have exactly studied this and go on hearsay and few readings, but has what they say been said about other sources?
 

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Snoop

Sabet is a nasty virgin
Oct 2, 2001
28,186
Its the same if not worse in Libya.
I doubt Libya is worse than Syria. In syria you really don't want to have a trouble with police and moukhabarat.. Sometimes some criminals or anti-government might not see the sun for life as a punishment..
 

Fellas

Farsopoli
Jun 13, 2005
3,136
It takes less than 30 minutes.


Going by that logic, we wouldn't have many muslims left, would we?

A big chunk of the muslim youth right now do not pray consistently.
ok less than about 30 minutes :p. As I said is a hard question.. Im unsure where I stand in that question, where do you live? I live in sweden and here it's not many young muslims who prays. Do you pray?
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
Fair enough. Really fair. Though I don't totally agree because then again no one practice Islam correctly(but very very VERY few), therefore by your theory no one is a Muslim. Same with Christianity.

But i know lots of people that do not pray at all. They believe in Qur'an and everything, they even admit that they're wrong in not practicing, but still they do not pray, they drink and they have sex. I'd say a big chunk of Arab and Muslim youth are like that. You could call them muslims with weak faith, but to say they're not muslims is a bit far fetched.
There's no middle ground for me here. You're either a Muslim, practicing Islam, going through its instructions and teachings or you are not. As simple as that. Religions inherently aren't different from each other. The basics are the same but practices are different. When you stop practicing Islam and Qoran's instructions, there's nothing left for you except for a label: Muslim, as someone who has been born to Muslim parents. Someone who would have been a Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Zarathustrian/etc if he had been born in another place to another parents.

Why one considers himself a Muslim? What are his beliefs? That Muhammad was the God's (a supernatural force) messenger and Qoran was his book? So if you really believe in a supernatural force and you also believe that he sent Muhammad to people, descending Qoran upon him, isn't it a bit odd that you're still not practicing what a supernatural being has ordered you through a man and a book? One must be shitting in his pants believing that a supernatural omnipotent force has ordered him to do prayers, to fast, etc yet he refrains from doing that.

The time you stop practicing Islam, you quit it.

Going by that logic, we wouldn't have many muslims left, would we?

A big chunk of the muslim youth right now do not pray consistently.
So what do you exactly want here? What are you proud of? The number of people who only consider themselves Muslims without practicing it?
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,692
I got your point well Hoori earlier. Looks like you didn't get mine though or maybe I didn't explain myself well. Will do that tomorrow.


Have a good night all.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,480
Are there too some mourners who cut themselves with knives, swords, etc while mourning in Ashura?

They are a small group of course but I have never seen anything as disgusting as that in my lifetime.
I dont get this at all, I hope they are very small minority. Like to think there are more similarities then differences to shia's (people like to point out the differences mainly), but stuff like this and other things puzzle me at times.
 

mcrae

Junior Member
Jun 3, 2004
327

This is not from Islamabad.This happened yesterday in Athens in public view.

Kids who had the idea of takin a walk at that time had to watch muslim whackos whippin themselves.:shifty:
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
I think whats more important than practice is belief. If you believe in one god, his prophet, his books, etc. Then you are a muslim, even if you are not a practicing one. Loads of muslims don't pray, fast, refrain from drinking, refrain from sex etc. But they are still muslims.
This just illustrates the vagueness of religion. These people do not actually believe in this stuff. If they did, like Hoori said, if they were actually living in fear of punishment from god, they would damn right follow his stupid rules, just to get him off his back. But they don't. They say they do, but their behavior doesn't reflect their supposed beliefs. The beliefs are for show.

And this applies to at least half of all religious people in the world. They identify themselves with the belief, they say they belong to the religion, they tell themselves this, but in actual fact they don't actually have the behavior that reflects the belief. Which means that if it wasn't for social pressures they'd easily toss it.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
I doubt Libya is worse than Syria. In syria you really don't want to have a trouble with police and moukhabarat.. Sometimes some criminals or anti-government might not see the sun for life as a punishment..
Oh believe me its just as bad, half the population function as informants to the moukhabarat here, people don't even trust their brothers, nobody ever dares to talk about the government. In fact, i've never heard anyone say a word against the government ever when i was in Libya. In one of the UN's reports on free speech, we were ranked before last, only North Korea was worse than us.

ok less than about 30 minutes :p. As I said is a hard question.. Im unsure where I stand in that question, where do you live? I live in sweden and here it's not many young muslims who prays. Do you pray?

I live in the UAE, while i might not be always punctual with the prayers, generally i try not to miss any.

There's no middle ground for me here. You're either a Muslim, practicing Islam, going through its instructions and teachings or you are not. As simple as that. Religions inherently aren't different from each other. The basics are the same but practices are different. When you stop practicing Islam and Qoran's instructions, there's nothing left for you except for a label: Muslim, as someone who has been born to Muslim parents. Someone who would have been a Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Zarathustrian/etc if he had been born in another place to another parents.

Why one considers himself a Muslim? What are his beliefs? That Muhammad was the God's (a supernatural force) messenger and Qoran was his book? So if you really believe in a supernatural force and you also believe that he sent Muhammad to people, descending Qoran upon him, isn't it a bit odd that you're still not practicing what a supernatural being has ordered you through a man and a book? One must be shitting in his pants believing that a supernatural omnipotent force has ordered him to do prayers, to fast, etc yet he refrains from doing that.

The time you stop practicing Islam, you quit it.
Its not just black and white. People are faithful with varying extents, not everybody is the same. People who don't practice yet still consider themselves muslims and believe in everything Islam said are still muslims, but they are muslims with weak faith.

I remember reading a Hadith about calling someone a kafir or a non muslim. I can't remember the exact words of the hadith, but the general meaning was that we as muslims should not call anyone a non muslim if he says that he believes in Islam, no matter what you see him doing(or not doing).

So what do you exactly want here? What are you proud of? The number of people who only consider themselves Muslims without practicing it?
I'm not proud of anything at all, on the complete contrary i'm bemoaning the state of current muslims.

This just illustrates the vagueness of religion. These people do not actually believe in this stuff. If they did, like Hoori said, if they were actually living in fear of punishment from god, they would damn right follow his stupid rules, just to get him off his back. But they don't. They say they do, but their behavior doesn't reflect their supposed beliefs. The beliefs are for show.

And this applies to at least half of all religious people in the world. They identify themselves with the belief, they say they belong to the religion, they tell themselves this, but in actual fact they don't actually have the behavior that reflects the belief. Which means that if it wasn't for social pressures they'd easily toss it.
You can't judge people like that. A lot of my friends do not pray and do not practice most of Islams teachings, but i'm pretty sure they still believe in Islam. They "know" that they're wrong in not praying, they just slack off.

Its like when someone commits a crime, he knows he's going to be apprehended and punished for it, but sometimes he does it anyway. Not because he doesn't believe he won't be punished.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,891
I remember reading a Hadith about calling someone a kafir or a non muslim. I can't remember the exact words of the hadith, but the general meaning was that we as muslims should not call anyone a non muslim if he says that he believes in Islam, no matter what you see him doing(or not doing).
Really?
So if I say I believe in Islam you can't doubt me? :D

I believe in Islam, motherfuckers!
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
No, i was just making an observation that Ian was a Karl Marx fan.


That part i bolded was exactly what Marx said about religion, almost in the same words, plus most Catalan nationalists are marxist. Lead me to the observation that Ian was a Marxist.
indeed indeed. You actually used information that you gathered from different sources to make an assertion that proved to be correct, something that is all too rare around here. I was a marxist. He articulated some very correct things, but his vision was far too narrow, and while I accept the premise that human interaction is essentially an expression of economics, I disagree with the conclusions about the fate of humanity that he drew. Furthermore, I don't think that history can be characterized as purely dialectical...
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
This just illustrates the vagueness of religion. These people do not actually believe in this stuff. If they did, like Hoori said, if they were actually living in fear of punishment from god, they would damn right follow his stupid rules, just to get him off his back. But they don't. They say they do, but their behavior doesn't reflect their supposed beliefs. The beliefs are for show.

And this applies to at least half of all religious people in the world. They identify themselves with the belief, they say they belong to the religion, they tell themselves this, but in actual fact they don't actually have the behavior that reflects the belief. Which means that if it wasn't for social pressures they'd easily toss it.
This was actually prophesied :)
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
indeed indeed. You actually used information that you gathered from different sources to make an assertion that proved to be correct, something that is all too rare around here. I was a marxist. He articulated some very correct things, but his vision was far too narrow, and while I accept the premise that human interaction is essentially an expression of economics, I disagree with the conclusions about the fate of humanity that he drew. Furthermore, I don't think that history can be characterized as purely dialectical...
:tup:
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
I got your point well Hoori earlier. Looks like you didn't get mine though or maybe I didn't explain myself well. Will do that tomorrow.
I got your point Rab. This is what you said:

Though I don't totally agree because then again no one practice Islam correctly(but very very VERY few), therefore by your theory no one is a Muslim. Same with Christianity.

And yes I still stick to my theory. Either practice your religion or stop considering yourself a Muslim/Christian/whatever. There's no non-religious Muslim thing.

This just illustrates the vagueness of religion. These people do not actually believe in this stuff. If they did, like Hoori said, if they were actually living in fear of punishment from god, they would damn right follow his stupid rules, just to get him off his back. But they don't. They say they do, but their behavior doesn't reflect their supposed beliefs. The beliefs are for show.

And this applies to at least half of all religious people in the world. They identify themselves with the belief, they say they belong to the religion, they tell themselves this, but in actual fact they don't actually have the behavior that reflects the belief. Which means that if it wasn't for social pressures they'd easily toss it.
You know what does it like? When you gain something by yourself, you know backwards and forwards of it. When you inherit it, you just carry it with you. Still, you are sensitive about it and you have a weird felling if someone questions it. Most of religious people only inherit their beliefs from their parents. They never even bother to know why they really believe in those things. Their beliefs are more like a geographical characteristic of them.

In Qoran there are many verses intimidating people of the severe punishment they'll face if they commit sins. The way Qoran depicting the hell is overawing even to someone who doesn't believe in it. So I wonder how some consider themselves Muslims, do believe in God as an absolute power, do believe in Qoran and its sayings yet they never have any fear of the "hell" they have heard of when they refrain from doing their religion's instructions.

But now show them a caricature of their prophet ...

I remember reading a Hadith about calling someone a kafir or a non muslim. I can't remember the exact words of the hadith, but the general meaning was that we as muslims should not call anyone a non muslim if he says that he believes in Islam, no matter what you see him doing(or not doing).
I have heard about that Hadith but do you know what was it about? There were people who weren't practicing Islam (probably were not Muslim at all) while living among the Muslims. So the other people were making them problems calling them Kafirs. Then the Hadith says that you don't have the right to inquire into those people's lives in order to know if they are really Muslims or they're just pretending to be. It says that you have to accept them as Muslims if they only say that they are Muslims. You see the point of the Hadith. It is: everyone is telling the truth unless he's proved wrong. It doesn't say that you are a Muslim the time you claim so. I'm sure you know that in Islam, you are not considered to be a Muslim if you take the basics of this religion after your parents and not by yourself.

Its not just black and white. People are faithful with varying extents, not everybody is the same. People who don't practice yet still consider themselves muslims and believe in everything Islam said are still muslims, but they are muslims with weak faith.
There's no such thing.

Tell me Fred, what is Islam about and why are you a Muslim?
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
It was not just about those people. The hadith also meant to say that you should never label someone as a non muslim, because you don't really know and you're not in a position to judge anyone. Meaning neither you or I can decide or determine who a true muslim is and who isn't.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
Yes exactly. It says you don't have the right to judge people when you don't really know how they are. It doesn't say you become a Muslim only by claiming so. You see the difference?
 
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