Able Xavier Converts to Islam (17 Viewers)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
In what way is he insulting Muslims? Didn't Muhammad visit the Kaaba, throwing out the idols literally, destroying them, thus cleansing the Kaaba from the stains of Jahiliyyah? Wasn't this an insult to all those who believed in those idols? I find it rather ridiculous how you Muslims of all people accusing everyone of insulting your "holy religion/book/prophet" whenever they make fun of your beliefs while in fact Muhammad (as well as all the other prophets) allegedly fought with all what you call "credulous beliefs" of those eras. Credulous or not, absurd or reasonable, there were some people who were practicing those beliefs. There were some people who were worshiping handmade idols but Muhammad made a mockery of them by throwing them out. Why didn't he respect those people's beliefs? Because he was a message from God? I hope you realize that not everybody believes that Muhammad was from God and I hope you're aware of the fact that not everyone believes Qoran is a divine book. So if the Muslims believe that what Muhammad did was justified because he wanted to point out the absurdity of those Arabs' cults, you have to acknowledge that for those who don't believe in your prophet what he did was an insult to what the others had as their "holy" beliefs.

If someone comes now and says that he's converted to a cult in which the sun is the creator of all the universe, you'll call it backwards and retarded, won't you? He sure wouldn't be able to back his beliefs but are you able to back yours? Of course not. And as long as you can't come up with a convincing reasoning to prove that there's a God, that Muhammad is his message and that Qoran is his book, you can't do anything but putting up with everyone who calls your beliefs stupid.
The one who worships the sun is going through his cult' instructions; what he believes in, what he holds in absolute holiness. Wouldn't you find it stupid if he kneels to the sun doing his prayers? You would. So I'm telling I find it stupid seeing Muslims in big rows bowing down to literally nothing but a direction. I find it absurd seeing Muslims turning around a cube with all those white apparels. What's the difference here? Only because Muslims are greater in number than those who worship the sun doesn't mean they are right and the others are not.

You know, you, you above all the other people, cannot complain about those who mock your beliefs.
Dude. That was awesome. I've rarely if ever seen a more coherent argument against Muslim intolerance. Thanks.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
fixed

fact is the owners of Kaaba converted to islam, and agreed to remove them. The majority became muslim if not 99%, and believed that he was the prophet, so your argument fails.

thats like you moving into a new house, and refusing to remove some of the old owners left overs.




silly child, the media purposely focuses on islam to justify their killings in iraq and afghanistan. Fact is all religions/groups have good and bad.

The indicdent in Clombia High, the student killer was jewish, how many times does the media mention his faith ? never !

Instead moaning on bitching about things that happen in other countries , why don't we sort out the problems happening in ours:

- rape on the rise
- anti social behavior on the rise
- murder on the rise
- sexual harassment on the rise
- teenage pregnancy
etc

saudi arabia has some bad things and good things just like any other country.

it has the least rape per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

2nd last in murders (Qater being last)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

im not defending the government and all their actions, but only a fool would single islam out
I think that the issues of Muslim intolerance and Facism clothed in Islam are different.

Either way, Muslims (generally speaking) are real touchy about things. If you know that, then just deal with it the best you can. Jews have their issues, as do Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus. In the end, I think Marx was correct in asserting that religion is simply another tool through which capital can be used to control people...
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,779
yaaay lets throw confetti i finally found a way to argue with muslims, you people really need hobbies. As for the kaaba, all arabs believed kaaba was built by abraham, a monotheist, as a matter of fact even pre-islamic arabs believe that. Muhammad saw those statues in that holy place as sacrilegious to that creed/line of thinking(think a cross in a temple).
Secondly that argument commits the very elementary mistake of confusing the dogma and some of its practitioners, what are we discussing here? the written or the seldom practiced?

And hoori i find it sad you side your civilized, though ignorant, post with the ramblings of a hateful run of the mill bigot.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,903
What a skewed way of seeing things and what selective memory you have.

A bit of history lesson for you: A few years around the birth year of the Holy Prophet a giant army from Yemen marched on Mecca threatening to take it over. The Meccans didn't prepare at all because Meccans believed that God (even though they had several idols their religion was not polytheistic) would protect Mecca. The soldiers of this army died of small pox and never set foot on Mecca. This only enhanced the belief of the Meccans that God is protecting them. So when the Muslims walked on Mecca they didn't defend it yet again under the belief that God will protect them but when that protection never came they realized that this man indeed does speak the truth and is a prophet of God so they all accepted Islam. The holder of the key to the Ka'aba handed they keys to the Holy Prophet himself where the idols were kept.

Learn some history.
But even before the conquest Mecca by the Muslims, Kaaba was the place where the Arabs from all around the Arabian peninsula, some of which were Christians, performed the hajj.
Those 360 idols represented many different religions (including Christianity) and when Muhammad destroyed them, he insulted all the Arabs who weren't Muslim. Even if all the Meccans miraculously threw away the religions they practiced all their life and immediately became Muslim (which is impossible, even for people from the 7th century Arabia), it still leaves those who weren't from Mecca, who weren't Muslim, and still went to Mecca for hajj.

If some Christian army today conquers Mecca putting the lives of the Meccans in danger and the people from Mecca decide to convert to Christianity, the Pope leads the way to destroying the Kaaba and build a church over it, would it be ok just because the people of Mecca allowed him to do it?

Btw, the "history lesson" of yours comes from Islamic source(s), without exception.
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,327
What you believe to be the prohet of your god mohammed, kept slaves yes? also so from what I understand it is said to be acceptable to keep slaves/concubines in the Qu'ran, is this true?
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,327
And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
But even before the conquest Mecca by the Muslims, Kaaba was the place where the Arabs from all around the Arabian peninsula, some of which were Christians, performed the hajj.
Those 360 idols represented many different religions (including Christianity) and when Muhammad destroyed them, he insulted all the Arabs who weren't Muslim. Even if all the Meccans miraculously threw away the religions they practiced all their life and immediately became Muslim (which is impossible, even for people from the 7th century Arabia), it still leaves those who weren't from Mecca, who weren't Muslim, and still went to Mecca for hajj.

If some Christian army today conquers Mecca putting the lives of the Meccans in danger and the people from Mecca decide to convert to Christianity, the Pope leads the way to destroying the Kaaba and build a church over it, would it be ok just because the people of Mecca allowed him to do it?

Btw, the "history lesson" of yours comes from Islamic source(s), without exception.
Mecca belonged to the Meccans not to anyone else so what they did was their business. The idols did not represent different religions...they were family totems; animal spirits that payed homage to Allah (the main god). This is actually what non-Muslim research has produced. The Muslims just assumed these people were all just a bunch of pagans and didn't really dwell much on this subject.


I didn't speak of a miraculous conversion. That's just how it worked back then and it still happens wherever tribalism exists. When influential Meccans; people like Abu Sufyan, Khaled ibn al Waleed, and other Quresh converted what do you expect? Besides, what I said about the Meccans belief that Mecca would be protected by God and when that protection never came they saw that as sign.

Most sources you're gonna find are going to be 'Islamic' sources because who else was their to record the events?
 

Delle Alpi

Chemical Dean
May 26, 2009
8,679
I don't like to argue with fools because people can tell who's who from far away. Who gives a Salami what the guy want to believe in. some racist around here are waiting for any chance to attack and start throwing stereotypes. If I wanted to talk about the negativity among other religion I would need years to state what the Jew, and christians did wrong, but that is not the case. There is a bad and good side in each religion but people are blind or dump enough that they usually only see what they want to see or what their peanuts size brain want to know. open up your mind and stop this stupidity of bashing all muslims for the actions of thousands while there are over a billion in the whole world. when you watch the news don't believe everything they tell you because every channel has it's own agenda that wants to deliver. Iranian that I have met here they all bash Islam because they are opressed by their Islamic government so they usually tend to bash the religion, i tell them stop acting out of frustration and focus on the main problem which is your government because i lived in muslim countries (Lebanon, and kuwait) and I was never opressed or treated badly. Religion is not the problem, the main problem is the close minded people who practise a religion and take things out of proportion and manipulate things for their own sick deed to justify treating other people in a wrong way and kill innocent people all over the world.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,903
Mecca belonged to the Meccans not to anyone else so what they did was their business. The idols did not represent different religions...they were family totems; animal spirits that payed homage to Allah (the main god). This is actually what non-Muslim research has produced. The Muslims just assumed these people were all just a bunch of pagans and didn't really dwell much on this subject.
Muhammad was well aware that people from all Arabia went there for hajj but he disrespected their beliefs by destroying the idols.

Of course, he knew very well that he must do it if he wants to achieve what he achieved, but it still means that he completely disrespected their beliefs. And that's what Hoori was saying when she criticized Rebel for not accepting his beliefs to be criticized.



I didn't speak of a miraculous conversion. That's just how it worked back then and it still happens wherever tribalism exists. When influential Meccans; people like Abu Sufyan, Khaled ibn al Waleed, and other Quresh converted what do you expect? Besides, what I said about the Meccans belief that Mecca would be protected by God and when that protection never came they saw that as sign.
Yes, when the influential people, usually the nobility and the high priest convert, the others follow them. But when do the influential people or high priests convert?
Abu Sufyan wasn't someone who'd take a "sign of God" like that.
They converted only because they knew what will happen to them, and the people of Mecca, if they don't.
But did they really accept Islam so fast or they only did it in public?


Most sources you're gonna find are going to be 'Islamic' sources because who else was their to record the events?
Those like Abu Sufyan who weren't Muslims before the conquest and didn't truly accept Islam after the conquest.
But could they write it down?
No, the victors could do it only and they wrote it as they wished.

You know, it's like the history of Palestine after 1947 being written only by Jews.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
fixed

fact is the owners of Kaaba converted to islam, and agreed to remove them. The majority became muslim if not 99%, and believed that he was the prophet, so your argument fails.

thats like you moving into a new house, and refusing to remove some of the old owners left overs.
They converted to Islam but they didn't remove the idols themselves? They waited until Muhammad came to throw those stones away?

What a skewed way of seeing things and what selective memory you have.

A bit of history lesson for you: A few years around the birth year of the Holy Prophet a giant army from Yemen marched on Mecca threatening to take it over. The Meccans didn't prepare at all because Meccans believed that God (even though they had several idols their religion was not polytheistic) would protect Mecca. The soldiers of this army died of small pox and never set foot on Mecca. This only enhanced the belief of the Meccans that God is protecting them. So when the Muslims walked on Mecca they didn't defend it yet again under the belief that God will protect them but when that protection never came they realized that this man indeed does speak the truth and is a prophet of God so they all accepted Islam. The holder of the key to the Ka'aba handed they keys to the Holy Prophet himself where the idols were kept.
What part of my previous post denies that?

This is a simple question for you: Were all the people whose idols were being kept in Kaaba had converted to Islam? Were all the people of Mecca Muslims at that time? What were all those battles for then? There were some who fought against Muhammad and his followers. Some who were still worshiping their idols but Muhammad did cleanse the Kaaba from all those idols. My post wasn't to judge whether Muhammad insulted those Kafirs or not. It wasn't the point of my post. Someone calls "converting to Islam" backwards and retarded. Muslims here feel insulted. I asked a question from Rebel. How is this an insult when your prophet, Muhammad, did the same to those who were keeping their idols in Kaaba, holding them in holiness, worshiping them?

As a Muslim, you do believe that Abraham was too a messenger from God. Have you heard about his story with the idols where he smashed them all, leaving only the biggest one? It's in fact mentioned in Qoran. Why did he do it? Didn't he know how those idols were holy for his people? Do you call it an insult or you prefer to claim that what Abraham did was wrong?

Even if you didn't know this important part of history it's still funny that you choose to say all that when the Holy Prophet showed mercy that very few conquerors if any have shown in history. The Holy Prophet and his people were persecuted by the Meccans and driven out of town. He lived in exile for 10 years under which the lives of hundreds of Muslims were lost including the life of his uncle who's liver was eaten by Hinda, from the house of Abu Sufyan (a staunch enemy of Islam). His daughter was pushed off a camel while pregnant and lost her child, and one man who's name I forget who killed another relative of the Prophet. All these people along with all of Mecca were forgiven when Mecca was conquered...and you're speaking of a bunch of destroyed idols??
I didn't say he didn't live in exile for over 10 years.
I didn't say Hinda didn't eat Hamzah's liver.
I didn't say his daughter wasn't pushed off a camel.
I never said a man whose name you forget didn't kill one of Muhammad's relatives.

You probably read only the first two lines of my post and it forced you to go through Muhammad' biography. Had you read some more lines of my previous post, you would have been spare putting forth all those efforts.

I'm not mourning over those broken idols. I just find it ludicrous that Muslims are easily being irritated when someone takes Muhammad's name in vain. They take it as an insult if someone calls their beliefs stupid and retarded. Muhammad too found the whole concept of "idolatry" wrong and credulous. He broke the idols out of Kaaba. Thing is that you'd never take it as an insult to those who were worshiping those cult images because you think Muhammad was right. Just if you start to have an exhaustive look over the matter you'd realize that the Muslims are actually the last who can complain about those who're mocking them.

And hoori i find it sad you side your civilized, though ignorant, post with the ramblings of a hateful run of the mill bigot.
The sadder thing is vanity. The saddest thing is faking to be someone you are not.

Do you know how is a drum's sound like? It's deep and loud. Its vessel is hollow though. An empty inside with a loud sound. For some reason you always remind me of a drum' construction.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
In what way is he insulting Muslims? Didn't Muhammad visit the Kaaba, throwing out the idols literally, destroying them, thus cleansing the Kaaba from the stains of Jahiliyyah? Wasn't this an insult to all those who believed in those idols? I find it rather ridiculous how you Muslims of all people accusing everyone of insulting your "holy religion/book/prophet" whenever they make fun of your beliefs while in fact Muhammad (as well as all the other prophets) allegedly fought with all what you call "credulous beliefs" of those eras. Credulous or not, absurd or reasonable, there were some people who were practicing those beliefs. There were some people who were worshiping handmade idols but Muhammad made a mockery of them by throwing them out. Why didn't he respect those people's beliefs? Because he was a message from God? I hope you realize that not everybody believes that Muhammad was from God and I hope you're aware of the fact that not everyone believes Qoran is a divine book. So if the Muslims believe that what Muhammad did was justified because he wanted to point out the absurdity of those Arabs' cults, you have to acknowledge that for those who don't believe in your prophet what he did was an insult to what the others had as their "holy" beliefs.

If someone comes now and says that he's converted to a cult in which the sun is the creator of all the universe, you'll call it backwards and retarded, won't you? He sure wouldn't be able to back his beliefs but are you able to back yours? Of course not. And as long as you can't come up with a convincing reasoning to prove that there's a God, that Muhammad is his message and that Qoran is his book, you can't do anything but putting up with everyone who calls your beliefs stupid.
The one who worships the sun is going through his cult' instructions; what he believes in, what he holds in absolute holiness. Wouldn't you find it stupid if he kneels to the sun doing his prayers? You would. So I'm telling I find it stupid seeing Muslims in big rows bowing down to literally nothing but a direction. I find it absurd seeing Muslims turning around a cube with all those white apparels. What's the difference here? Only because Muslims are greater in number than those who worship the sun doesn't mean they are right and the others are not.

You know, you, you above all the other people, cannot complain about those who mock your beliefs.
I won't reply to your first paragraphs against Islam because it seems your hatred to it won't make you understand how we think about Islam in specific, and about the religions in general.

Anyway, I would like to understand what you meant in your last two lines above. Why can't I complain?

Well, it's not like the Greeks adore the Turks and the Albanians (who are also Muslim) :D

And why would he be ashamed if he's a Jew?
I didn't say he would be ashamed for being a jewish. I said he would be ashamed for being a jewish who is insulting Islam in the forum, because simply those Zionists are known for their unjustified attack on Islam, and in order to increase his credibility, he tries to appear as unbiased guy instead of being himself, A clueless Zionist.
 

king Ale

Senior Member
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
I won't reply to your first paragraphs against Islam because it seems your hatred to it won't make you understand how we think about Islam in specific, and about the religions in general.
Show me a little bit of my hatred towards Islam the first paragraphs indicates.

Anyway, I would like to understand what you meant in your last two lines above. Why can't I complain?
You first need to grasp the first paragraphs. You'll understand why you can't complain then.
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
What you believe to be the prohet of your god mohammed, kept slaves yes? also so from what I understand it is said to be acceptable to keep slaves/concubines in the Qu'ran, is this true?
No, No slavery in Islam. When Islam came, slavery was all over the Arab peninsula. So, the solution for that was by making gradual steps to finish this phenomenon because simply it was so difficult to call for freeing all the slaves once upon a time.

When some Muslims made some mistakes related to the religion, Islam ordered them to free a slave to be forgiven by God. After afew years, there were no more slaves there.

And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
This verse is about those tribes who allied with Quraysh infidels in Al-Ahzab battle attacking Muslims in Medina. God says it is ok to kill some of them and capture the others because they are the ones that started attacking Muslims. These are not slaves. They were prisoners.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,903
I won't reply to your first paragraphs against Islam because it seems your hatred to it won't make you understand how we think about Islam in specific, and about the religions in general.

Anyway, I would like to understand what you meant in your last two lines above. Why can't I complain?



I didn't say he would be ashamed for being a jewish. I said he would be ashamed for being a jewish who is insulting Islam in the forum, because simply those Zionists are known for their unjustified attack on Islam, and in order to increase his credibility, he tries to appear as unbiased guy instead of being himself, A clueless Zionist.
Member A called Islam a backward cult and Member B said that Muhammad did exactly what you don't want to be done to you and what member A did.
What you immediately did was to call member A a clueless Zionist and member B an Islam hater in order to downplay their arguments.

Can it be that member A is really Greek and member B doesn't hate Islam at all?
 

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
Show me a little bit of my hatred towards Islam the first paragraphs indicates.



You first need to grasp the first paragraphs. You'll understand why you can't complain then.
I don't care about your opinion about Islam to be honest. But I was curious to know why I can not complain out of all the other people.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,903
This verse is about those tribes who allied with Quraysh infidels in Al-Ahzab battle attacking Muslims in Medina. God says it is ok to kill some of them and capture the others because they are the ones that started attacking Muslims. These are not slaves. They were prisoners.
Serious question Reb, and I'm sure you'll give me an honest answer. You call them Quraysh infidels. To you i'm an infidel too and I won't mind at all if you call me an infidel.
But I wonder if you'll mind if I call you an infidel.
"That Palestinian infidel", for example, or "those Arab infidels".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 17)