A second look at Virginia Tech (4 Viewers)

[Enron]

The solution is very simple. It's called showing a little humanity. How about the teacher not berate him in front of the whole class? And not threaten to resign if he's not removed? How about other teachers not doing the same also? The girl he hit on called his dad, who eventually made the cops come and bring him in as if he were some kind of criminal suspect. Can you say monumental overreaction? I'd like to say how about the other kids not treating him like dirt, but I know that is basically a pipe dream. The point is he got it from ALL angles all at once, he didn't have anything to cling to.

Showing a little humanity really isn't that simple is it? Let's say we force teachers to crack down on bullying? Ok fine, no bullying between the hours of 8am and 3pm. So what happens after school in the neighborhoods? Do the small kids just stay inside by themselves?

There's no doubt Cho got it bad, sure I feel bad for him from that standpoint, but so did 20-30 other people who probably didn't know the guy.

We can blame society and the school all we want, but the truth is Virginia Tech is a huge school. It's well known that at huge schools, you are a number. It sucks. That's the reason I chose to avoid such a situation. Because of my earlier stresses. I didn't think I would be able to go up to a professor from a 300 person class and expect any help. Cho and his parents knew of his problem since he was 14. There are many much smaller schools he could have gone to where he would have been considered a priority and offered the help he needed rather than being forced to seek it out.

 

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[Bjerknes]

Not at all.

If treating people like dirt causes shootings, then in other parts of the world where people get treated a lot worse then here they would cap out fools.

Well, they do. All over the fucking place.

What is your point?

 

[Enron]

I wasn't at all popular in high school.

Oh well, maybe you and I would have been pals then.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Maybe they don't have as many guns?

But they have knives, bats, and I'm sure you can kill and beat with those things.

I know a couple of people from India, and they say people are more humble over there.

People can concoct all the theories they want to deny the main issue, but it won't solve anything.

I'm sure that is true if they are here, because they had money to move here. You have to be higher in the caste system to get money and shit.

 

[Bjerknes]

Burke, you're turning into Seven here.

So you're saying there isn't a problem with society and the only psychos are located in the United States?

I can't make any sense of what you're saying.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Well, they do. All over the fucking place.

What is your point?

Then it can't be a US societal problem alone.

 

[Martin]

No I have a problem with people being abused. What I don't like is the accusation that someone is abused by an entire environment. As if bullying was a sport done by an entire society be it the student body of Va Tech or the engineering department. Those who know anything about bullying know it's a practice done by a few and not the many. It's virtually that the entire student body or even the entire engineering department of Virginia Tech were active bullies in this guy's life. What's more realistic is that a few people in his life were very, very, harsh with him. Now when you are bullied, it feels like the whole world is against you, even if they aren't. Off-hand comments which may be in jest are not accepted as so. But the fact is that it stems from a few. I think you may be more successful in your endeavor of damning society to focus on the individuals that actually participate in bullying. I'm sure you realize that attempting to change an entire society is fruitless. Unless you have a crap ton of LSD and about 60 million copies of the Barney theme song.

Um. I do understand that Cho was weaker than me. At the same time, in my younger years I was weak too, in fact I'm almost positive I was a lot weaker than many back then. I'm not saying we're the same, but there are lots of people who display weakness, be it depression, bipolar disorder, or something else, at different times in there lives yet find a light at the end of the tunnel and turn out just fine.

Right, and maybe if, for the sake of argument, his peers had been abusive, but he'd had support (or at least understanding) from his teachers he would have gotten over this and turned out just fine?

I've never gone to a school where a kid would get the kind of treatment from faculty as described in this article. THAT's what I have a problem with.

After all, I'm not the professional here. I took the points of this sociologist, and if you want to refute them on professional grounds, go ahead, I'm not qualified to stop you.

Right and wrong aren't really personal standards. Especially, when the decision is between mass murder and not mass murder. He obviously knew what he did was wrong, remember he did shoot himself. It's not like he was reared in a society where it is perfectly ok to kill those that wrong you or those that you think have wronged you.

I'm not interested in his murder. What am I supposed to say? That I could have handled him? I'm not a psychiatrist who saves people who are seriously unbalanced. We're talking about the events that drove him there, remember he wasn't a killer from the start.

This argument is completely futile. Who are we to debate the ethical calculations of a guy who's basically gone nuts? The point is he wasn't always nuts. He was quite normal to begin with.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Burke, you're turning into Seven here.

So you're saying there isn't a problem with society and the only psychos are located in the United States?

I can't make any sense of what you're saying.

That's cuz you is a pussy.

MAN UP!

 

[Enron]

So you do admit it's a problem with society then?

I've never disagreed with that. Only that its an impossible problem to fix. Especially in the states. We're basically a land of barbarians compared with the rest of the world.

I think that society breeds individuals who do bully, that's probably not going to stop, but the bigger problem is that does fuck all to help people deal with it.

 

[Bjerknes]

Then it can't be a US societal problem alone.

This disregards the issue though.

Seven is correct with his core point, that school shootings are more common in the United States.

We are not discussing shootings in undeveloped countries and in general situations, but rather shootings that occur at our school in our "prestigious" society here in the United States.

So, why do we have the glut of shootings here? Are we all psychos or something?

 

[Enron]

Love to continue fellows, but apparently I need to retrieve bread from the store.

 

[Martin]

Showing a little humanity really isn't that simple is it? Let's say we force teachers to crack down on bullying? Ok fine, no bullying between the hours of 8am and 3pm. So what happens after school in the neighborhoods? Do the small kids just stay inside by themselves?

The teachers were themselves bullies, dude. Or perhaps not bullies in the classical sense, but contributing to his condition, that was the whole point of that story I posted.

There's no doubt Cho got it bad, sure I feel bad for him from that standpoint, but so did 20-30 other people who probably didn't know the guy.

Right, and I'm talking about them too.

We can blame society and the school all we want, but the truth is Virginia Tech is a huge school. It's well known that at huge schools, you are a number. It sucks. That's the reason I chose to avoid such a situation. Because of my earlier stresses. I didn't think I would be able to go up to a professor from a 300 person class and expect any help. Cho and his parents knew of his problem since he was 14. There are many much smaller schools he could have gone to where he would have been considered a priority and offered the help he needed rather than being forced to seek it out.

Fine, so maybe he/they didn't have the foresight. Maybe they didn't know a great deal about "big schools". So what? He got harassed and ended up shooting 40 people. And I'm willing to claim that it's because he did just that we can get a wake up call and stop pretending like it's nothing to worry about.

 

[Lilith]

And what would that be? To cover up their own insecurity by picking on someone weaker?

No, no I was being sarcastic in the sense that you are saying that you can understand what he did, so I was saying if that's the case, doesn't the bully deserve some sort of understanding as well? Some bullies are victims of abuse themselves. And just like he couldn't seem to help himself for whatever reason, some bullies are like that too. So if that's the excuse well then, he is still no better than those who did that to him.

 

[Enron]

I'm not interested in his murder. What am I supposed to say? That I could have handled him? I'm not a psychiatrist who saves people who are seriously unbalanced. We're talking about the events that drove him there, remember he wasn't a killer from the start.

This argument is completely futile. Who are we to debate the ethical calculations of a guy who's basically gone nuts? The point is he wasn't always nuts. He was quite normal to begin with.

I wrote another post on the "big school" experience that might help you out.

You're right that he was normal. But at the same time he did have a problem that could perhaps be the root of this whole debacle. I'm not qualified to state this any more than as an opinion. But Cho had a disability of sorts and had he been enrolled in a much more people friendly college, things may have turned out differently.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

This disregards the issue though.

Seven is correct with his core point, that school shootings are more common in the United States.

We are not discussing shootings in undeveloped countries and in general situations, but rather shootings that occur at our school in our "prestigious" society here in the United States.

So, why do we have the glut of shootings here? Are we all psychos or something?

WE ARE ALL PUSSIES!

 

[Bjerknes]

Fine, so maybe he/they didn't have the foresight. Maybe they didn't know a great deal about "big schools". So what? He got harassed and ended up shooting 40 people. And I'm willing to claim that it's because he did just that we can get a wake up call and stop pretending like it's nothing to worry about.

That's the scary thing. People like to brush aside the issue and claim that those who commit these crimes are simply psychos, pussies, or what not. Nothing is done to address the issue except for tying random stereotypes to certain people.

Therefore, the problem persists.

 

[Martin]

No, no I was being sarcastic in the sense that you are saying that you can understand what he did, so I was saying if that's the case, doesn't the bully deserve some sort of understanding as well?

Yes, they can, but just as we're saying he shouldn't have killed those people, the bullies shouldn't have bullied him. Again, the stronger vs weaker argument applies. A bully who picks on a weaker kid (which all bullies do) has power over the victim. The moral question is different depending on which side of the table you're on, if you're the stronger one then your actions are that much more reprehensible.

Some bullies are victims of abuse themselves. And just like he couldn't seem to help himself for whatever reason, some bullies are like that too. So if that's the excuse well then, he is still no better than those who did that to him.

No, he's worse, because his response was far worse. But that's because he was too weak to respond in kind.

 

[Bjerknes]

I wrote another post on the "big school" experience that might help you out.

You're right that he was normal. But at the same time he did have a problem that could perhaps be the root of this whole debacle. I'm not qualified to state this any more than as an opinion. But Cho had a disability of sorts and had he been enrolled in a much more people friendly college, things may have turned out differently.

That's a strange concept, "people friendly" college.

Even at our high school, with a graduating class around 60, it didn't really seem "people friendly."

 

[Martin]

WE ARE ALL PUSSIES!

I stand corrected. Surely now you're just humoring me?

 

[Martin]

I've never disagreed with that. Only that its an impossible problem to fix. Especially in the states. We're basically a land of barbarians compared with the rest of the world.

I think that society breeds individuals who do bully, that's probably not going to stop, but the bigger problem is that does fuck all to help people deal with it.

But when you say that you basically wash your hands of it. "There's nothing we can do anyway." How helpful. The truth is, which we don't think about much in daily life, that all our interactions with people have consequences. Every gesture matters. So if you approach life from that angle then there is actually a lot you can do to do good around you.

That don't mean you'll prevent Virginia Tech, but you can and will affect your own environment in a positive way. And people respond to the actions of others, so all it takes is one person to be friendly and you can effectively get several other people to follow, not only in dealing with you, but with each other.