World's newest state (8 Viewers)

[Alen]

I'm from Srebrenica, lost half of my relatives because of ya, and most still havent been recovered, what am I to do?

Truly sorry for that but everyone of us here lost a friend or a relative in that war. Many Serbs lost their close people also.
But you can see me now talking to some Bosnian or with Dule and laughing and telling jokes day after day while you bring back hatred with some of your statements or with your link.

Both you and Dule will stop right here with this little argument of yours.
Ok ?

 

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[Alen]

Your flag is post 1991, after the brake of Yugoslavia (the flag of Serbia and Montenegro)

edit: To Tahir

 

[Cronios]

Wow, Arif, this is what Balkan historiography does to people's minds.
Here you're trowing the same cards the Jews use when they say "But we were here in Bible times, we were the first here, this must be ours"

It's funny when people draw a line from Ancient times to 21st century and say "Those were our great great grand fathers".

First of all the theory of ethnogenesis will never allow the Ilyrian tribes who lived here more than 2000 years ago to be the same people as modern Albanians.
Did you get to read Ilyrian gloses (words) ? Not a single one is used in modern Albanian language.
Do you know what was happening in the Balkans in last 2000 years ?
The Ancient Macedonians were rulling Ilyria at certain times. They were marrying and raping Illyrian women. Then the Romans came and the Roman empire lasted more than 4 centuries here in the Balkans. What about the Roman colonists who were inhabited in modern Albania ? Did they stay away from the Ilyrians ?
And then Byzantium ruled Albania for 1100 years. Greek colonists, Slavik tribes, Latin speaking tribes.....they all lived together with the people they found in modern Albania.
And then the Turks came. When they came Albania wasn't islamic country, it was Christian country. It took time for the Turks to spread islam and you do know how were they doing that, right ? How did they react when a certain city wouldn't surender. All the women in certain cities were raped.

And you're telling me that modern Albanians are direct successors of ancient Illyrians ?


It's the same as Macedonians who claim that they are the descendants of Alexander the Great or modern Greeks claiming that they are the descendants of the Ancient Greeks.



Something is still strange here. I'm not doubting that the Serbs did masacre some innocent civilians but it's still strange how year after year the Albanians were becomming a majority while the Serbs a minority.
Every year the percentage of Albanians was ggrowing while the percentage of Serbs was getting lower and lower.
That's some strange way to make a certain nation disappear.

If i were the one to post these, i would be called biased...thank you Allen!
D@mn you make it all hard to disagree with you, apart from that Molinaro thing

Well of course it isn't alright for the Serbs to carry out ethnic cleansing. But it's also not right for us to step in, bomb civilians in Beograd and Sarajevo (tardy I might add), and then start forming nations that suit our own needs. It's just wrong.

If only there were more Americans like Andy, the world would be a better place!!!

that one sentence describes the whole situation.
as an albanian i was taught in school that albanians were in the region before greeks and serbs and that one the official borders of albania were drafted a large portion of territory where the majority of population were/still are albanian were given to yougoslavia, greece and macedonia.
and that lead to mass evacuations/killings of people from those territories

I know man, i ve done this discussion with several Albanian schoolmates, many years ago, i know what you have been taught and that was one of the reasons that made me to look back at my history books and then throw them away.
If not any other state in the region, the Albanian ppl, indeed have some origins with the extinct Illyrian+Dardanian races, (esp Illyrians since the fyrom inhabitans claim that they are the Dardans)
BUT as Alen stated, because of the 2000+ years and the large numbers of conquerers and the lack of the Dardanian/Illyrian culture, this race simply vanished from the face of earth. However modern Albanians may have about 15% blood of that race and great influence of some slavic races too, witch makes them a strange mixture than cannot cope with the rest of the Jugoslavians and they do have some bonds with this area. (well the Dardanians/Illyrian have never as south as the modern Albanian is though but...)

But point is that every single state in the balkan area feels that life has been unfair with them and they all hope for some better day and they think that this better day will come when our country will become mighty again, re occupying our lost territories. Thats all BS, we should grow up sometime and learn how to live one besides the other, we should face our real social problems and focus on financial growth, then we can all live happy and put aside our barbaric thirst for war,
the only thing a war can do is waste a few more centuries of our existence, bring us 10 more steps behind and boost our national pride creating future conflicts.

I cant believe we are all, still, too stupid to avoid this trap, when this story ends??
Serbia had many things to lose from this war, they were not a crippled country,
i dont think that every Serbian citizen would agree on a mass murder just to save his national pride, IMHO there was space for a more peaceful solution even after this war. If we are about to make a new war and a new state for the percentage of slavic or Illyrian blood there is in every part of the balkans, we should create about 100 more new nations. This is not how we will make a European UNION!

 

[V]

I just went and had myself a free burek, cuortesy of Kosovo's independence. At least some good came out of this. Free food.

 

[Alen]

I just went and had myself a free burek, cuortesy of Kosovo's independence. At least some good came out of this. Free food.

Where ?
No-one gives free food here. We don't have Albanians

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

i am not rapist btw

 

[Vinman]

That's what it could come down to if Putin really means what he says regarding the issue.

as we speak, Putin is getting the Soviet war machine gassed up, and ready to fight...

and by the time he's done, the Yugoslav flag will have that red star back in the middle of it

as Burke would say "DA"

 

[Vinman]

i am not rapist btw

obnoxious maybe...but certainly not a rapist

 

[Enron]

How well off are the Balkans today though? We could potentially have another war on *our* hands. I don't think people want that, but the good old USA and Russia are once again at arms.

Ask any Bosnian or Serb how he feels about the United States' diplomacy in the Balkans. Sure, we certainly helped Kosovo, but we were late in coming into Bosnia, which can be attributed to the fact that beforehand we didn't have much interest in the region.

I mean, ask Alen, Zlatan, Dule and even Arif what they think about our troops being involved. You'll get mixed responses, most of them negative.

It wasn't only our troops, it was a NATO operation. You're probably right though. Nationalistic bloodshed, ethnic cleansing, and unending war are all ideals to which every man would love to live by. NATO bombed the region but it's not like the peoples of the Balkans hadn't been killing each other for a decade before. Hey Alen, Zlatan, Dule, and Arif. Do you guys wish there was still civil war and all that goes along with it?*



*It's a serious question. I'm interested to find out, don't be offended I'm just wondering.

 

[Juve_Kosova]

First of all the theory of ethnogenesis will never allow the Ilyrian tribes who lived here more than 2000 years ago to be the same people as modern Albanians.
Did you get to read Ilyrian gloses (words) ? Not a single one is used in modern Albanian language.
Do you know what was happening in the Balkans in last 2000 years ?
The Ancient Macedonians were rulling Ilyria at certain times. They were marrying and raping Illyrian women. Then the Romans came and the Roman empire lasted more than 4 centuries here in the Balkans. What about the Roman colonists who were inhabited in modern Albania ? Did they stay away from the Ilyrians ?
And then Byzantium ruled Albania for 1100 years. Greek colonists, Slavik tribes, Latin speaking tribes.....they all lived together with the people they found in modern Albania.
And then the Turks came. When they came Albania wasn't islamic country, it was Christian country. It took time for the Turks to spread islam and you do know how were they doing that, right ? How did they react when a certain city wouldn't surender. All the women in certain cities were raped.

And you're telling me that modern Albanians are direct successors of ancient Illyrians ?

Get your facts right dude..
Here are just a little of the facts that prove the Albanians to be direct successors of Illyrians..

"Illyrian kingdom based in Scodra" Shkodra wich is a big city in Albania.
"Under Queen Teuta, Illyrians attacked....." Teuta is a typical Albanian name for a woman!...

Illyrian ("Ilir" in albanian) means the free in Albanian.
The Illyrian king Bardyllis name means white star in Albanian.
The province of Dalmatia means "land of sheep" in Albanian.
The city of Ulqinj means "land of wolves" in Albanian.
The Illyrian capitol Lissus (Lis) quite simply means tree in Albanian.
Dardania means land of pears in Albanian
The name oh the illyrian tribe Thesproti means Bringer of sacks (bags) in Albanian

In exception for a few borrowed words from Romance, Turkish and Slavic, Albanian is modern day Illyrian.

Bardhyll, Genc (Gentius in Romance) Agron, Teuta are a few examples of Illyrian names that are still and only used by Albanians.

This obvious affinity can not continue to be denied. Confirm this with an Albanian interpreter or do you wish to keep your eyes closed.

Conclusion: If Serbs where a little bit freindlier to their Albanian neighbours they would gladly explain this long before any misconceptions could be made


Illrians are the present day Albanians........... Here is why Serbs are not the descedants of Illyrians......... SLAVS WHO ARE SERBS CAME INTO BALKANS INTO 7TH CENTURY A.D...... THEY SPEAK SLAVIC LANGUAGE,,,,,,, THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT ILLIRYCUM AS AN INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE,,,,NOT SLAVIC,,,,,SERBS MIGRATED TO BALKANS FORM THE CARPATHE MOUNTAINS OF Romania/Russia..


Anyway, say and think what you want.

KOSOVA is Independent !!!

 

[Cronios]

Soviet war machine

In Balkans we have a say,
"a dog that barks, wont/dont bite''

Putin is full of talks, the Soviet war machine is no more, the last Russian ally in the region has been decimated, there is nothing more the Russians might fight for,
the only moral win the Russian ever took, is when the Serbian brought down the invincible/invisible F117...
we will never see that red cross again...

 

[Vinman]

In Balkans we have a say,
"a dog that barks, wont/dont bite''

Putin is full of talks, the Soviet war machine is no more, the last Russian ally in the region has been decimated, there is nothing more the Russians might fight for,
the only moral win the Russian ever took, is when the Serbian brought down the invincible/invisible F117...
we will never see that red cross again...

I thought you were Greek ??

Dont count the Russians out just yet...there will be a re-surgence

 

[Bjerknes]

It wasn't only our troops, it was a NATO operation. You're probably right though. Nationalistic bloodshed, ethnic cleansing, and unending war are all ideals to which every man would love to live by. NATO bombed the region but it's not like the peoples of the Balkans hadn't been killing each other for a decade before. Hey Alen, Zlatan, Dule, and Arif. Do you guys wish there was still civil war and all that goes along with it?*



*It's a serious question. I'm interested to find out, don't be offended I'm just wondering.

I don't think you understand the implications of our actions on anybody other than ethnic Albanians.

You ask me to read history books on the matter, but I don't give a shit about history books. I'd rather listen to the people who were bombed by our jets, the people who lived through the crisis, who have lived through hell whether it be near present day Kosovo, Sarajevo or Vukovar. You can read Balkan history all you want, but it's nothing compared to first hand accounts of what people experienced.

Perhaps that's why we (as in Americans) always think we know what's best, because of fucking history books. Well, not me. Perhaps that's why everybody hates us... because we don't listen to the people who actually had to deal with bombs flying over head every single day. The people involved in the crisis are worth more some crap in a book.

But I guess it's alright to send in bombers with spread bombs filled with Uranium pellets. Hell, what do we care? We don't have to live there. And it makes sense because this history book said it did, right?

 

[Cronios]

I thought you were Greek ??

Dont count the Russians out just yet...there will be a re-surgence

Greece is also a Balkan state (unfortunatelyumpkin: )

Funded by whom??

 

[Bjerknes]

Just look at it this way, Enron. What if somehow the United States was tossed into turmoil and different states opposed different states after some war. So while we're bombing each other over here, a nation like China sends troops in and divides up the nation in their favor, having bases in areas with a glut of natural resources. Do we want China or some other nation having a say in what happens to our land? Fuck no. Not even with ethnic cleansing raping our people.

That's why whatever we (as Americans say) in defense of what we did in the Balkans and Iraq is hypocritical.

 

[Bjerknes]

Balkan brothers here, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the general consensus that the US and Nato response to the Serb forces in Bosnia was too little, too late? That's what it seems like to me at least.

 

[Alen]

BUT as Alen stated, because of the 2000+ years and the large numbers of conquerers and the lack of the Dardanian culture, this race simply vanished from the face of earth. However modern Albanians may have about 15% blood of that race and

I don't think Dardanians inhabited the Albanian territories. Kosovo yes, but never Albania. They lived in Serbia and Macedonia. The Illyrians ( and Dardanians weren't Illyrians) lived in Albania. Illyrii proprie dicti as the Romans called it was the territory that is now and that was 3/4/5 centuries ago inhabitted by Albanians.
The connection between the Kosovars and the Dardanians was made in last decades. The only way for the Kosovars to "prove" that they were here before the Serbs and that they have the rights on this territory was to find a connection between the Albanians and the Dardanians. Suddenly certain hystorians or pseudo-historians started prooving that the Dardanians were Illyrians and hoilaaa, here we have the connection.
Because the Albanians "are" the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

That percentage you give is huge, Cronios.
There is certainly something of the ancients (Hellens, Macedonians, Illyrians, Thracians) still floating around in the genome of all the Balkan people but we simply can not put a number next to it.
Everyone in the southern Balkan (Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia) is partly Turkish, partly Slavik, partly Greek, partly Vlach, partly Roman, partly Albanian.
Everyone

@ Juve-Kosova
It's not something to brag about, but i'm a history major and i did my studies in Europe, outside the Balkans. Ok, Antique is not my speciality, middle ages are, but i think i do know enough about the Ancient history of the Balkans.
So i'll trust my professors and the books i read more than i trust the Albanian high school history professors.
Sorry.

 

[Alen]

Illyrian ("Ilir" in albanian) means the free in Albanian.
The Illyrian king Bardyllis name means white star in Albanian.
The province of Dalmatia means "land of sheep" in Albanian.
The city of Ulqinj means "land of wolves" in Albanian.
The Illyrian capitol Lissus (Lis) quite simply means tree in Albanian.
Dardania means land of pears in Albanian
The name oh the illyrian tribe Thesproti means Bringer of sacks (bags) in Albanian

And learn how onomastics and toponomastics works.
I can tell you hundreds of Turkish words that have a meaning in Croatian language.
But does it means that Croats are Turkish ?

And these words you mentioned are the Greek transcriptions of the Illyrian words. These are not Illyrian words. Illyrians couldn't write you know while the Greeks always changed the word just so it will be easier to understand and pronounce.
So are you Greeks now ?

 

[ReBeL]

Balkan brothers here, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the general consensus that the US and Nato response to the Serb forces in Bosnia was too little, too late? That's what it seems like to me at least.

I agree. The UN (represented by the Dutch) role in Srebrenica massacre can't be forgotten easily.

 

[Enron]

I don't think you understand the implications of our actions on anybody other than ethnic Albanians.

You ask me to read history books on the matter, but I don't give a shit about history books. I'd rather listen to the people who were bombed by our jets, the people who lived through the crisis, who have lived through hell whether it be near present day Kosovo, Sarajevo or Vukovar. You can read Balkan history all you want, but it's nothing compared to first hand accounts of what people experienced.

Perhaps that's why we (as in Americans) always think we know what's best, because of fucking history books. Well, not me. Perhaps that's why everybody hates us... because we don't listen to the people who actually had to deal with bombs flying over head every single day. The people involved in the crisis are worth more some crap in a book.

But I guess it's alright to send in bombers with spread bombs filled with Uranium pellets. Hell, what do we care? We don't have to live there. And it makes sense because this history book said it did, right?

Settle down. You're aren't making sense.

Of course nothing is better than primary sources. History is a written account of events. In order to understand an outcome, you should know what lead to it. And to answer your question, it is the fact that Americans don't look at history enough that gets us into trouble.

Let's be honest getting bombed isn't fun. I really have no idea but I imagine it blows. People dying, especially civilians sucks. No one said it was great for everyone. I just have a problem for those you put complete blame on the US for the state of the region today. It's not like the US just went over and started dropping Daisy Cutters on a perfectly peaceful region. My belief is that once a group of people set out to completely destroy another group of people, all bets are off. Ethnic cleansing in unacceptable. Would the ethnic cleansing and the violence in Bosnia have stopped without NATO intervention? Would Milosevic have decided to just quit killing muslims? No. A lot of people were killed by American bombs, I've never been bombed to I can't understand what it's like. Being blown up is probably not a fun time.

Sorry for that guys. My bad.

My biggest gripe about our Balkan intervention was that the US didn't push for quicker action by the UN in Rawanda.

On to the issue at hand. The Independence of Kosovo:

Part of me is happy that the Ethnic Albanians have gained there freedom. Especially after the atrocities committed under the leadership of Milosevic. You kind of feel for them, like Rocky III when Sly gets a victory after getting shit kicked by Mr T. Also in this case the majority of the people living in the region are asking for democracy and have a great shot at succeeding if given the chance, which is a nice contrast to the Iraq situation.

Part of me feels for the Serbian people, who have lost a mineral rich piece of land and some of their most holy and historical places. Granted the actions of their military and government in 1998-99 are unforgivable. It seems wrong to punish the people 10 years later. After all it is the politicians who are responsible for a war, not the people. I believe the politicians have indeed been punished. On top of that this is no doubt a last second ploy by the Bush administration to grab some dignity before his time is up. Which gives a bitter taste.

Upon further reading, it seems that the independence may be breaking a few international laws. So perhaps it would have been wise of the international community (including my country) to hold off for a bit.

The point is that there are many different views and many different angles to understand. Perhaps too many. Especially from someone on the outside looking in. Each side has a claim, but unfortunately not all sides will gain.