World's newest state (9 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

I agree. The UN (represented by the Dutch) role in Srebrenica massacre can't be forgotten easily.

That's right. And I wonder why the response was too late... oh yeah, now I remember..

 

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[Bjerknes]

Settle down. You're aren't making sense.

Of course nothing is better than primary sources. History is a written account of events. In order to understand an outcome, you should know what lead to it. And to answer your question, it is the fact that Americans don't look at history enough that gets us into trouble.

I think it's just as much the fact we don't listen to people... that's the problem. I'm sure we have a whole team of fantastic historians in the government, but we don't listen to calls for help or what other nations think. We're too busy disecting what's best for us.

And like I said earlier, the fact that NATO and the US was too late on Srebrennica just goes to show that we (the west) only act when we want to, not when it's right.

 

[Enron]

Just look at it this way, Enron. What if somehow the United States was tossed into turmoil and different states opposed different states after some war. So while we're bombing each other over here, a nation like China sends troops in and divides up the nation in their favor, having bases in areas with a glut of natural resources. Do we want China or some other nation having a say in what happens to our land? Fuck no. Not even with ethnic cleansing raping our people.

That's why whatever we (as Americans say) in defense of what we did in the Balkans and Iraq is hypocritical.

The funny thing about you're statement is that to this day, the United States is blamed for inaction in Rawanda. It's almost as if it doesn't matter what we do or don't do because we are the US well will be blamed for what happens. Either way we are hypocritical. If NATO had not intervened and the war had played out it is very likely that people would be saying the same thing about the Balkans.
Perhaps on a grander scale.

I hate it when we (US) intervenes in International situations. I know people are going to be pissed whatever the outcome. My personal opinion is that it is Europe's turn to clean up the messes in the world.

To answer your last question:
If I were being ethnically cleansed I would hope for a little help from the international community.

 

[ReBeL]

To answer your last question:
If I were being ethnically cleansed I would hope for a little help from the international community.

If the international community doesn't support your opponent, then you definitely can stuggle against the ethnical cleansing alone.

 

[Enron]

I think it's just as much the fact we don't listen to people... that's the problem. I'm sure we have a whole team of fantastic historians in the government, but we don't listen to calls for help or what other nations think. We're too busy disecting what's best for us.

And like I said earlier, the fact that NATO and the US was too late on Srebrennica just goes to show that we (the west) only act when we want to, not when it's right.

Actually we don't really pay much attention to History, otherwise we would understand the mistakes of the past and learn from them. The truth is that our foreign policy isn't perfect. No one is saying that.

Realize that until Iraq in 2003, the US was required to get UN or NATO approval to act in these situations. The tardiness in Srebrennica is the fault of Europe as well as the US, if not more. Maybe we were wrong to show up late. Perhaps all the killing would have stopped and there wouldn't have been any more massacres after Srebrennica. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Like I've said before we should just let the world handle its own business for a few decades, withdraw and work on our own economy, infrastructures and social systems.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

I know man, i ve done this discussion with several Albanian schoolmates, many years ago, i know what you have been taught and that was one of the reasons that made me to look back at my history books and then throw them away.
If not any other state in the region, the Albanian ppl, indeed have some origins with the extinct Illyrian+Dardanian races, (esp Illyrians since the fyrom inhabitans claim that they are the Dardans)
BUT as Alen stated, because of the 2000+ years and the large numbers of conquerers and the lack of the Dardanian/Illyrian culture, this race simply vanished from the face of earth. However modern Albanians may have about 15% blood of that race and great influence of some slavic races too, witch makes them a strange mixture than cannot cope with the rest of the Jugoslavians and they do have some bonds with this area. (well the Dardanians/Illyrian have never as south as the modern Albanian is though but...)

But point is that every single state in the balkan area feels that life has been unfair with them and they all hope for some better day and they think that this better day will come when our country will become mighty again, re occupying our lost territories. Thats all BS, we should grow up sometime and learn how to live one besides the other, we should face our real social problems and focus on financial growth, then we can all live happy and put aside our barbaric thirst for war,
the only thing a war can do is waste a few more centuries of our existence, bring us 10 more steps behind and boost our national pride creating future conflicts.

I cant believe we are all, still, too stupid to avoid this trap, when this story ends??
Serbia had many things to lose from this war, they were not a crippled country,
i dont think that every Serbian citizen would agree on a mass murder just to save his national pride, IMHO there was space for a more peaceful solution even after this war. If we are about to make a new war and a new state for the percentage of slavic or Illyrian blood there is in every part of the balkans, we should create about 100 more new nations. This is not how we will make a European UNION!

exactly, nationalism has become a plague in the balkans, unless we are talking soccer game

 

[Enron]

If the international community doesn't support your opponent, then you definitely can stuggle against the ethnical cleansing alone.

Doesn't matter, if Canadians were systematically killing off Americans I would want someone to say "Hey guys... That ain't right".

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

can't say i didnt laugh. we'll send our ship

 

[Cronios]

I don't think Dardanians inhabited the Albanian territories. Kosovo yes, but never Albania. They lived in Serbia and Macedonia. The Illyrians ( and Dardanians weren't Illyrians) lived in Albania. Illyrii proprie dicti as the Romans called it was the territory that is now and that was 3/4/5 centuries ago inhabitted by Albanians.
The connection between the Kosovars and the Dardanians was made in last decades. The only way for the Kosovars to "prove" that they were here before the Serbs and that they have the rights on this territory was to find a connection between the Albanians and the Dardanians. Suddenly certain hystorians or pseudo-historians started prooving that the Dardanians were Illyrians and hoilaaa, here we have the connection.
Because the Albanians "are" the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

Well, we all agree that modern Kosovo was a Dardanian territory, dont we?
Now the question is, if the Albanians, among other things are also Dardanian or Illyrian!! Some of them (Kosovo-Albanians) claim that they are Dardanians and that would make them brothers with the Fyrom inhabitands, rather than the southern Albanians that claim to be in fact Illyrians, they got me confused when they change nationalities and origins like that. I agree with the rest and we have to notice that the Illyrian names in Albany appeared along with the communist regiment. Its really sick when i countries propaganda aims to create future conflicts and territory claims than focus on strenghten the national moral!
Dardanians and Illyrians lived together in the same period of time, so they cant be the same ppl. Their lost pieces among with the rest of slavic tribes made a mixture of strange percentages though...

That percentage you give is huge, Cronios.
There is certainly something of the ancients (Hellens, Macedonians, Illyrians, Thracians) still floating around in the genome of all the Balkan people but we simply can not put a number next to it.
Everyone in the southern Balkan (Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia) is partly Turkish, partly Slavik, partly Greek, partly Vlach, partly Roman, partly Albanian.
Everyone

I agree that we are all a mixture after all and we have to take note that some of the mixtures evaporate when they dont have strong culture, the dardanians were
surely the weakest link here and the less possible to survive in modern days, the percentage i gave them was the most optimistic just to point out with the less objections the facts!

And learn how onomastics and toponomastics works.
I can tell you hundreds of Turkish words that have a meaning in Croatian language.
But does it means that Croats are Turkish ?

And these words you mentioned are the Greek transcriptions of the Illyrian words. These are not Illyrian words. Illyrians couldn't write you know while the Greeks always changed the word just so it will be easier to understand and pronounce.
So are you Greeks now ?

Hey i didnt say THAT you devil

 

[BarkuZ-yes i am an ass]

I don't think the fact that the Partizans did it to the Italians, makes it alright for the Serbs to massacre the Albanians. I don't know, maybe I am just weird.

Come to my land like palgue,say that you want your own country....I'd kill you with no remorse,spit on you and walk away with fuckin smile on my face

That's how balkans do it,that's why we have Croatia,Bosnians have Bosnia and herzegovina(ok,with plenty of our and american help). Slovenia had a very good cocksucker for Slobodan apparently

 

[Enron]

can't say i didnt laugh. we'll send our ship

No not the ship!

 

[ReBeL]

Doesn't matter, if Canadians were systematically killing off Americans I would want someone to say "Hey guys... That ain't right".

That doesn't really matter, believe me. What'a the good I get if somebody said about what I know that's wrong "That's wrong"?? Nothing. I don't want him to say anything. I would be grateful if he stays silent, but to keep himself neutral. Even if he cheers for my opponent, I won't care as long as he doesn't do something practical. Words do nothing.

 

[Enron]

That doesn't really matter, believe me. What'a the good I get if somebody said about what I know that's wrong "That's wrong"?? Nothing. I don't want him to say anything. I would be grateful if he stays silent, but to keep himself neutral. Even if he cheers for my opponent, I won't care as long as he doesn't do something practical. Words do nothing.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't being literal. I mean that if Canadians were wiping out Americans I would want someone to take action. Not just use words.

 

[Zé Tahir]

You misunderstood me. I wasn't being literal. I mean that if Canadians were wiping out Americans I would want someone to take action. Not just use words.

If you think that's all the conflict was then you're seriously misinformed.

 

[Enron]

If you think that's all the conflict was then you're seriously misinformed.

Good thing I am not misinformed.

 

[Enron]

Come to my land like palgue,say that you want your own country....I'd kill you with no remorse,spit on you and walk away with fuckin smile on my face

That's how balkans do it,that's why we have Croatia,Bosnians have Bosnia and herzegovina(ok,with plenty of our and american help). Slovenia had a very good cocksucker for Slobodan apparently

Good for you.

Out of curiosity, does it work that way all around? Like if a group of Serbs or Bosnians moved to Croatia would you kill them? Or only if they wanted to form their own country?

 

[Alen]

You misunderstood me. I wasn't being literal. I mean that if Canadians were wiping out Americans I would want someone to take action. Not just use words.

Sorry if i misunderstood you, but if you're making a comparison with what was happening in Kosovo then you're making an illogical comparisson (if it's about Bosnia then it's ok and nevermind what i'll say)

If it's a comparison with Kosovo then it's wrong because :
1. Canada attacking USA is an attack of one country against another
2. Kosovo was Serbia, it was it's south-west part so we can't talk about one country attacking another

To make a good comparison i'll use this example :
1. Mexicans are majority in New Mexico
2. The US goverment knows that the Mexicans want independence of New Mexico and they're getting armed. Lots of Mexican paramilitary groups are cruising through New Mexico.
3. Your president tells the army to enter New Mexico and do what's necessary
4. Your soldiers kill civilians during the cleansing
5. Russia (the greatest world power in our story) attacks USA , blames them for ethnic cleansing, bombs every single US city and after 8 years gives independence to New Mexico.

Milosevic should burn in hell for what he was doing in those few months in Kosovo. But he didn't wake up one morning and think "I'm bored, what shall i do ? I know, i'll kill Albanians for no reason"

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

what were his reasons?

 

[Enron]

Sorry if i misunderstood you, but if you're making a comparison with what was happening in Kosovo then you're making an illogical comparisson (if it's about Bosnia then it's ok and nevermind what i'll say)

If it's a comparison with Kosovo then it's wrong because :
1. Canada attacking USA is an attack of one country against another
2. Kosovo was Serbia, it was it's south-west part so we can't talk about one country attacking another

To make a good comparison i'll use this example :
1. Mexicans are majority in New Mexico
2. The US goverment knows that the Mexicans want independence of New Mexico and they're getting armed. Lots of Mexican paramilitary groups are cruising through New Mexico.
3. Your president tells the army to enter New Mexico and do what's necessary
4. Your soldiers kill civilians during the cleansing
5. Russia (the greatest world power in our story) attacks USA , blames them for ethnic cleansing, bombs every single US city and after 8 years gives independence to New Mexico.

Milosevic should burn in hell for what he was doing in those few months in Kosovo. But he didn't wake up one morning and think "I'm bored, what shall i do ? I know, i'll kill Albanians for no reason"

I thought Rebel and I were talking about Bosnia.

I don't think Milosevic's idea was a spur of the moment thing either, but does that make it right? Nope. Does that make it right to bomb the rest of the country? No. Does the circumstance call for some sort of intervention from the international community? Yes. Does that make it alright for Kosovars to get independence? I don't know. I am trying to find out.

I understand what you are saying. But remember I've grown up with different philosophies, so I as an American I would be against sending troops to New Mexico to do "What is necessary" in the first place.

The thing is we come from totally different places. That would never happen in America because, given time, people become assimilated into our society. So its hard for me to understand what its like for you guys. That is why I ask.

 

[Alen]

what were his reasons?

UCK ( or KLA - Kosovo Liberation Army)

From 1996-1999 UCK, an ethnic Albanian guerilla group was seeking secession of Kosovo from Yugoslavia (Serbia) and their methods weren't peacefull either. They were the first ones who killed 4 Serb civilians and they claimed responsibility for that.
After the fall of Berisha in Albania, most of the weapons from Albania found their way to Kosovo and UCK suddenly started growing. They started attacking the police forces inside Kosovo.
Even some US officials called UCK terrorists while they called themselves freedom fighters. The UCK even proclaimed free territory and they set their capital. Every Albanian inside Kosovo supported them. Every Albanian was UCK.
What Milosevic was doing was war against terrorism (of course, according to him), the same thing US are doing in other places and war against the ones who wanted to take part of Serbia.
I have to agree with Enron 100% that Milosevic's methods were bruthal, but the Serbian action in Kosovo can also be explained as a war against terrorism in their own country.

What was inside Milosevic's head is one thing. Personally i think he did want Serbia without Albanians. The death of many civilians and the terror over innocent Albanians can not be explained differently. But he was also protecting his territory and i think that's what every single president will do for his own country, without exceptions.

If the Serbs in my country want to take part of Croatia, i'd expect my president to react.