My point is "good" is not something you can know about god. So just because he says that what he does is good (ie. allow an earthquake to kill a bunch of people) doesn't mean he really is.
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What is your god like? (27 Viewers)
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Yes, because my morality is a product of civilization. Of human interaction over the thousands of years that established certain norms of behavior. And these norms are genetically codified, so even if noone ever told me anything about morality I would still know.
Of course, there are exceptions. A sociopath is someone who has no awareness of other people's emotional states and no moral awareness. Society tries to make ensure morality, of course, but it's harder to make people play by the rules if those rules are purely external.
Of course, there are exceptions. A sociopath is someone who has no awareness of other people's emotional states and no moral awareness. Society tries to make ensure morality, of course, but it's harder to make people play by the rules if those rules are purely external.
Yes, it does imply that. But the corollary is that humans evolved from simpler species. We have a common ancestor with monkeys. And monkeys are not moral, are they? Our two species "split up" and each evolved in a different direction. And monkeys did not discover morality.
Morality is something exclusive to humans. But since we evolved from simpler species, morality is something that had to evolve also. It would have to have started to occur past a certain point where we had enough intelligence to understand the consequences of our actions.
So to say "humans were once immoral" I think is more or less true, however whether it was humans as we know them today (homo sapiens) or a simpler species of humans I don't know.
Morality is something exclusive to humans. But since we evolved from simpler species, morality is something that had to evolve also. It would have to have started to occur past a certain point where we had enough intelligence to understand the consequences of our actions.
So to say "humans were once immoral" I think is more or less true, however whether it was humans as we know them today (homo sapiens) or a simpler species of humans I don't know.
Anyone with a large scale dirty plan.. claims that god ordered him to do the dirty shit so that people dont bitch about it... that makes the human responsible not the religion. There is a difference between what a religion asks you to do.. and what followers really do.. they play around the laws like lawyers do in court.
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Back to the thread's original purpose...
The best and most logical God imo is the Aristotelian God....
It is impossible to prove that your God is that God... you just accept it by faith that its him.
First thing about investigating god's nature, You cannot know what God is but rather what he is not.
you can start working on your ideas from here... A really Good reading would be Thomas Aquinas - On faith and Reason... i am not christian but the logical sequence he uses is simple and straight to the point.
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Back to the thread's original purpose...
The best and most logical God imo is the Aristotelian God....
It is impossible to prove that your God is that God... you just accept it by faith that its him.
First thing about investigating god's nature, You cannot know what God is but rather what he is not.
you can start working on your ideas from here... A really Good reading would be Thomas Aquinas - On faith and Reason... i am not christian but the logical sequence he uses is simple and straight to the point.
My God is:
Ar-Rahman 1 The All-Compassionate
Ar-Rahim 2 The All-Merciful
Al-Malik 3 The Absolute Ruler
Al-Quddus 4 The Pure One
As-Salam 5 The Source of Peace
Al-Mu'min 6 The Inspirer of Faith
Al-Muhaymin 7 The Guardian
Al-'Aziz 8 The Victorious
Al-Jabbar 9 The Compeller
Al-Mutakabbir 10 The Greatest
Al-Khaliq 11 The Creator
Al-Bari' 12 The Maker of Order
Al-Musawwir 13 The Shaper of Beauty
Al-Ghaffar 14 The Forgiving
Al-Qahhar 15 The Subduer
Al-Wahhab 16 The Giver of All
Ar-Razzaq 17 The Sustainer
Al-Fattah 18 The Opener
Al-'Alim 19 The Knower of All
Al-Qabid 20 The Constrictor
Al-Basit 21 The Reliever
Al-Khafid 22 The Abaser
Ar-Rafi' 23 The Exalter
Al-Mu'izz 24 The Bestower of Honors
Al-Mudhill 25 The Humiliator
As-Sami 26 The Hearer of All
Al-Basir 27 The Seer of All
Al-Hakam 28 The Judge
Al-'Adl 29 The Just
Al-Latif 30 The Subtle One
Al-Khabir 31 The All-Aware
Al-Halim 32 The Forebearing
Al-'Azim 33 The Magnificent
Al-Ghafur 34 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults
Ash-Shakur 35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness
Al-'Ali 36 The Highest
Al-Kabir 37 The Greatest
Al-Hafiz 38 The Preserver
Al-Muqit 39 The Nourisher
Al-Hasib 40 The Accounter
Al-Jalil 41 The Mighty
Al-Karim 42 The Generous
Ar-Raqib 43 The Watchful One
Al-Mujib 44 The Responder to Prayer
Al-Wasi' 45 The All-Comprehending
Al-Hakim 46 The Perfectly Wise
Al-Wadud 47 The Loving One
Al-Majíd 48 The Majestic One
Al-Ba'ith 49 The Resurrector
Ash-Shahid 50 The Witness
Al-h Haqq 51 The Truth
Al-Wakil 52 The Trustee
Al-Qawi 53 The Possessor of All Strength
Al-Matin 54 The Forceful One
Al-Wáli 55 The Governor
Al-Hamid 56 The Praised One
Al-Muhsi 57 The Appraiser
Al-Mubdi 58 The Originator
Al-Mu'id 59 The Restorer
Al-Muhyi 60 The Giver of Life
Al-Mumit 61 The Taker of Life
Al-Hayy 62 The Ever Living One
Al-Qayyum 63 The Self-Existing One
Al-Wajid 64 The Finder
Al-Májid 65 The Glorious
Al-Wahid 66 The Only One
Al-Ahad 67 The One
As-Samad 68 The Satisfier of All Needs
Al-Qadir 69 The All Powerful
Al-Muqtadir 70 The Creator of All Power
Al-Muqaddim 71 The Expediter
Al-Mu'akhkhir 72 The Delayer
Al-Awwal 73 The First
Al-Akhir 74 The Last
Az-Zahir 75 The Manifest One
Al-Batin 76 The Hidden One
Al-Walí 77 The Protecting Friend
Al-Muta'ali 78 The Supreme One
Al-Barr 79 The Doer of Good
At-Tawwib 80 The Guide to Repentance
Al-Muntaqim 81 The Avenger
Al-Afu 82 The Forgiver
Ar-Ra'uf 83 The Clement
Malik al-Mulk 84 The Owner of All
Dhul-Jalali
Wal-Ikram 85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty
Al-Muqsit 86 The Equitable One
Al-Jami 87 The Gatherer
Al-Ghani 88 The Rich One
Al-Mughni 89 The Enricher
Al-Mani' 90 The Preventer of Harm
Ad-Darr 91 The Creator of The Harmful
An-Nafi 92 The Creator of Good
An-Nur 93 The Light
Al-Hadi 94 The Guide
Al-Badi 95 The Originator
Al-Baqi 96 The Everlasting One
Al-Warith 97 The Inheritor of All
Ar-Rashid 98 The Righteous Teacher
As-Sabur 99 The Patient One
Ar-Rahman 1 The All-Compassionate
Ar-Rahim 2 The All-Merciful
Al-Malik 3 The Absolute Ruler
Al-Quddus 4 The Pure One
As-Salam 5 The Source of Peace
Al-Mu'min 6 The Inspirer of Faith
Al-Muhaymin 7 The Guardian
Al-'Aziz 8 The Victorious
Al-Jabbar 9 The Compeller
Al-Mutakabbir 10 The Greatest
Al-Khaliq 11 The Creator
Al-Bari' 12 The Maker of Order
Al-Musawwir 13 The Shaper of Beauty
Al-Ghaffar 14 The Forgiving
Al-Qahhar 15 The Subduer
Al-Wahhab 16 The Giver of All
Ar-Razzaq 17 The Sustainer
Al-Fattah 18 The Opener
Al-'Alim 19 The Knower of All
Al-Qabid 20 The Constrictor
Al-Basit 21 The Reliever
Al-Khafid 22 The Abaser
Ar-Rafi' 23 The Exalter
Al-Mu'izz 24 The Bestower of Honors
Al-Mudhill 25 The Humiliator
As-Sami 26 The Hearer of All
Al-Basir 27 The Seer of All
Al-Hakam 28 The Judge
Al-'Adl 29 The Just
Al-Latif 30 The Subtle One
Al-Khabir 31 The All-Aware
Al-Halim 32 The Forebearing
Al-'Azim 33 The Magnificent
Al-Ghafur 34 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults
Ash-Shakur 35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness
Al-'Ali 36 The Highest
Al-Kabir 37 The Greatest
Al-Hafiz 38 The Preserver
Al-Muqit 39 The Nourisher
Al-Hasib 40 The Accounter
Al-Jalil 41 The Mighty
Al-Karim 42 The Generous
Ar-Raqib 43 The Watchful One
Al-Mujib 44 The Responder to Prayer
Al-Wasi' 45 The All-Comprehending
Al-Hakim 46 The Perfectly Wise
Al-Wadud 47 The Loving One
Al-Majíd 48 The Majestic One
Al-Ba'ith 49 The Resurrector
Ash-Shahid 50 The Witness
Al-h Haqq 51 The Truth
Al-Wakil 52 The Trustee
Al-Qawi 53 The Possessor of All Strength
Al-Matin 54 The Forceful One
Al-Wáli 55 The Governor
Al-Hamid 56 The Praised One
Al-Muhsi 57 The Appraiser
Al-Mubdi 58 The Originator
Al-Mu'id 59 The Restorer
Al-Muhyi 60 The Giver of Life
Al-Mumit 61 The Taker of Life
Al-Hayy 62 The Ever Living One
Al-Qayyum 63 The Self-Existing One
Al-Wajid 64 The Finder
Al-Májid 65 The Glorious
Al-Wahid 66 The Only One
Al-Ahad 67 The One
As-Samad 68 The Satisfier of All Needs
Al-Qadir 69 The All Powerful
Al-Muqtadir 70 The Creator of All Power
Al-Muqaddim 71 The Expediter
Al-Mu'akhkhir 72 The Delayer
Al-Awwal 73 The First
Al-Akhir 74 The Last
Az-Zahir 75 The Manifest One
Al-Batin 76 The Hidden One
Al-Walí 77 The Protecting Friend
Al-Muta'ali 78 The Supreme One
Al-Barr 79 The Doer of Good
At-Tawwib 80 The Guide to Repentance
Al-Muntaqim 81 The Avenger
Al-Afu 82 The Forgiver
Ar-Ra'uf 83 The Clement
Malik al-Mulk 84 The Owner of All
Dhul-Jalali
Wal-Ikram 85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty
Al-Muqsit 86 The Equitable One
Al-Jami 87 The Gatherer
Al-Ghani 88 The Rich One
Al-Mughni 89 The Enricher
Al-Mani' 90 The Preventer of Harm
Ad-Darr 91 The Creator of The Harmful
An-Nafi 92 The Creator of Good
An-Nur 93 The Light
Al-Hadi 94 The Guide
Al-Badi 95 The Originator
Al-Baqi 96 The Everlasting One
Al-Warith 97 The Inheritor of All
Ar-Rashid 98 The Righteous Teacher
As-Sabur 99 The Patient One
Answering the question in the thread title 
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1896547&postcount=28
Thats the point, we do not know distinctly what he is.
We cannot know the essence of God.. we can know what is not part of his essence.. but what he actually is is undetermined.
Our knowledge of God is through his effects not through himself.
seriously read Aquinas - on faith and reason..
i guarantee 100% you will like it (not necessarily agree to it)..
it wont give all answers but it will provide you with some answers and maybe the frame work for engaging in such arguments.
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The nicknames someone added do not apply to god the same way they apply to us.... they apply only by analogy... meaning scripture describes God as the best traits/things we can think of because we cannot imagine beyond matter... so the description is the closest thing we can get to know yet never actually accurate.
Note that his attributes are not mutually exclusive.
We cannot know the essence of God.. we can know what is not part of his essence.. but what he actually is is undetermined.
Our knowledge of God is through his effects not through himself.
seriously read Aquinas - on faith and reason..
i guarantee 100% you will like it (not necessarily agree to it)..
it wont give all answers but it will provide you with some answers and maybe the frame work for engaging in such arguments.
========
The nicknames someone added do not apply to god the same way they apply to us.... they apply only by analogy... meaning scripture describes God as the best traits/things we can think of because we cannot imagine beyond matter... so the description is the closest thing we can get to know yet never actually accurate.
Note that his attributes are not mutually exclusive.
Is god unknowable? If so his existence is unknowable, wouldn't you say?
Maybe I will if it keeps coming up. I don't want to go off on a tangent right now.
I would go further than "never accurate". I would say nonsensical. The words we use to describe our reality on earth cannot logically be applicable to something beyond our understanding, something supernatural. So either the word still means exactly what it means to us, or it means nothing. It cannot "sort of" mean something.
And this is the problem with religious debates in general. Nothing is concrete. The god people believe in is "sort of" the god from the bible but he "sort of" isn't. Since the biblical god is a fantasy and that's obvious to most. But they still want to hang onto aspects of the old primitive god while switching their attention to this abstract, unknowable god.
Do I have a car? Sort of. Well do I or don't I?
Maybe I will if it keeps coming up. I don't want to go off on a tangent right now.
I would go further than "never accurate". I would say nonsensical. The words we use to describe our reality on earth cannot logically be applicable to something beyond our understanding, something supernatural. So either the word still means exactly what it means to us, or it means nothing. It cannot "sort of" mean something.
And this is the problem with religious debates in general. Nothing is concrete. The god people believe in is "sort of" the god from the bible but he "sort of" isn't. Since the biblical god is a fantasy and that's obvious to most. But they still want to hang onto aspects of the old primitive god while switching their attention to this abstract, unknowable god.
Do I have a car? Sort of. Well do I or don't I?
You have to make the distinction between his essence and his existence. We know he exists but we dont know what he is like.
i strongly advise you to do... the book tackles shitloads of issues like these.. if you had problems with technical stuff i can help you (we dont have to agree)
very true, analogical knowledge is not knowledge at all since we know one side of the analogy only. This was actually an objection to Aquinas made by Duns Scotus (His books are the literally toughest books to understand on earth)
Scotus argues that we have univocal knowledge of god's attributes. Meaning that they have the same meaning to us and to god (when you abstract the attribute itself) the difference is In God they are infinite, in us finite. (as he is infinite while we are finite)
I tend to agree with Scotus for the reason you gave.(don't try to read scotus though as his works cannot be really understood)
You would do very well in a philosophy major... bravo.
i strongly advise you to do... the book tackles shitloads of issues like these.. if you had problems with technical stuff i can help you (we dont have to agree)
very true, analogical knowledge is not knowledge at all since we know one side of the analogy only. This was actually an objection to Aquinas made by Duns Scotus (His books are the literally toughest books to understand on earth)
Scotus argues that we have univocal knowledge of god's attributes. Meaning that they have the same meaning to us and to god (when you abstract the attribute itself) the difference is In God they are infinite, in us finite. (as he is infinite while we are finite)
I tend to agree with Scotus for the reason you gave.(don't try to read scotus though as his works cannot be really understood
) You would do very well in a philosophy major... bravo.
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