What is the threshold for hell? (2 Viewers)

[Hist]

I see. What would the consequences be in your country if you declared your conversion?

Egypt follows a mixture between western laws and Islamic Shar'ia..
The Islamic Sharia law would traditionally execute me after attempting to convert me back for 3 days.
However, Sheik Ali Goma'a(the official Mufti of Egypt) recently made a fatwa that apostates are not to be killed as long as it does not constitute treason so i think i am clear.
The people here would kill me though.. I'd be dead within hours

 

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[Fred]

Egypt follows a mixture between western laws and Islamic Shar'ia..
The Islamic Sharia law would traditionally execute me after attempting to convert me back for 3 days.
However, Sheik Ali Goma'a(the official Mufti of Egypt) recently made a fatwa that apostates are not to be killed as long as it does not constitute treason so i think i am clear.
The people here would kill me though.. I'd be dead within hours

Common misconception. This is what i think. {لا اكراه في الدين}

Of course many Islamic states throughout history have executed "converts". I personally have never believed in it.

 

[Martin]

Common misconception. This is what i think. {لا اكراه في الدين}

Of course many Islamic states throughout history have executed "converts". I personally have never believed in it.

Why did you scramble that part? Won't bad guys be able read it anyway?

 

[Fred]

No it's not that really. I don't have a ready translation for it, and i am too lazy to find one. Maybe Ze has one.

 

[Martin]

I mean that even atheists' judgment is often misled by beliefs. You, me, seven, Fred and everyone else.. one doesn't realize how his emotions stopped him from seeing clearly thats why always have an open mind as much as possible. Don't fix yourself on atheism or agnosticism or Islam or whatever because the way you think does change.. what you know and what you take into account is always changing.
keep an open mind for change thats all.
1 year ago i wouldn't have ever imagined that i'll be an agnostic... you can see how drastically my arguments has changed during only 2 years

You mean reasoning is clouded by emotions? No doubt.

However what would be the justification for atheists rejecting the idea of god on emotional grounds?

I believe dogma is the worst enemy we have. Never decide you will never change your mind about something, just let your mind decide based on the information you have.

 

[Zé Tahir]

It's a tax.

Non-muslims have to pay the tax, muslims don't.

You see where I'm going with this?

What Fred said.

I was reading few days ago about an interesting case regarding these taxes. It happens in the Ottoman Empire where the muslims give soldiers while the non-Muslims pay taxes.
The year is 1898 and villagers from today's Northern Greece (which is still in the Ottoman Empire in 1898) run away to Bulgaria (which is free at the time). When they realized that they have to go to the Bulgarian army they all come back to their village in northern greece, willing to pay the taxes

But there were many things that were irritating the non-muslims. Apart from being treated as a low class, their taxes (this tax is called desetok in slavic, which is 10% of the income) could have been bought from the state by an individual who then had the right to collect the taxes (i don't know the english term for this).
For example, the village Juventuz has to pay the state 10% of this year's income which is 10 000 eur. The state sells the tax to an individual from the Milan forums for 10 000 eur and this individual can now ask for as much as he wants. At the end, the guy collects 30 000 eur from Juventuz, or 30% of the income. It goes up year by year and there are cases when almost 90% went for taxes. The state got its money and they don't need to go to the village to collect the money. It's up to the guy who paid the money to the state to collect the money from the village, in whatever way he wants.
And only the taxes of the non-muslims could have been sold to individuals.

If you want to look at Islam in its true practice in history, then look no further than the fourth caliph, Hazrat Ali. Start at the life of the Prophet prior to the revelations and end at the end of the Khulafa Rashideen (the four caliphs appointed after the death of the Prophet) and you can also look at the lives of the Sahaba (people who were alive and converted on the hands of the Holy Prophet).

http://www.islam101.com/selections/glossaryJ.html

and by the way, Jews and christian will go to hell according to Islamic scripture because they don't believe in the Quran, because they don't believe mohammed and because they believe in the Trinity.
Yes, some Quranic verses like the one at the end of Al-Omran suggest that they'll go to heaven... but these are the pre Islamic christians and Jews..
I can get you the exact verses that say that those who believe in the trinity will go to hell.

Yes, please do. Bear in mind that one thing in one section of the Qur'an can say one thing but that very verse is better understood/related to another verse in another part of the book. A lot of people make the mistake of reading the verse that goes something like "And then kill the infidel wherever you see him" as meaning we should kill all non-Muslims. It couldn't be far from the truth.

Also, regarding what I was saying earlier (maybe it was in another thread) I think you misunderstood me. I have no problems with you interpreting Islam the way you do, I just had a problem with you saying "This is what Islam says about..." etc. That's a broad statement because there are 73 sects and they all have their interpretations and they also differ individual to individual. Whenever I say something, I make sure to note that this is 'my' view and the view of the Ahmadiyya sect (which some of the older members here know by now).

No it's not that really. I don't have a ready translation for it, and i am too lazy to find one. Maybe Ze has one.

What this? {لا اكراه في الدين}

It means "There is no compulsion in religion"

 

[Hist]

What Fred said.



If you want to look at Islam in its true practice in history, then look no further than the fourth caliph, Hazrat Ali. Start at the life of the Prophet prior to the revelations and end at the end of the Khulafa Rashideen (the four caliphs appointed after the death of the Prophet) and you can also look at the lives of the Sahaba (people who were alive and converted on the hands of the Holy Prophet).




Yes, please do. Bear in mind that one thing in one section of the Qur'an can say one thing but that very verse is better understood/related to another verse in another part of the book. A lot of people make the mistake of reading the verse that goes something like "And then kill the infidel wherever you see him" as meaning we should kill all non-Muslims. It couldn't be far from the truth.

Also, regarding what I was saying earlier (maybe it was in another thread) I think you misunderstood me. I have no problems with you interpreting Islam the way you do, I just had a problem with you saying "This is what Islam says about..." etc. That's a broad statement because there are 73 sects and they all have their interpretations and they also differ individual to individual. Whenever I say something, I make sure to note that this is 'my' view and the view of the Ahmadiyya sect (which some of the older members here know by now).



What this? {لا اكراه في الدين}

It means "There is no compulsion in religion"

I didnt know you where ahmadiyya so i dont know what weights you give to the hadiths of the prophet. Is reason above or below it? i really dont know anything about your sect

 

[Zé Tahir]

I didnt know you where ahmadiyya so i dont know what weights you give to the hadiths of the prophet. Is reason above or below it? i really dont know anything about your sect

If it's a reliable Hadith, i.e. if more than one Sahabi has written accounts of it (and I don't know what other factors are taking into account) than absolutely we give it weight.

I don't understand the last part of your question.

 

[Fred]

What Fred said.



If you want to look at Islam in its true practice in history, then look no further than the fourth caliph, Hazrat Ali. Start at the life of the Prophet prior to the revelations and end at the end of the Khulafa Rashideen (the four caliphs appointed after the death of the Prophet) and you can also look at the lives of the Sahaba (people who were alive and converted on the hands of the Holy Prophet).




Yes, please do. Bear in mind that one thing in one section of the Qur'an can say one thing but that very verse is better understood/related to another verse in another part of the book. A lot of people make the mistake of reading the verse that goes something like "And then kill the infidel wherever you see him" as meaning we should kill all non-Muslims. It couldn't be far from the truth.

Also, regarding what I was saying earlier (maybe it was in another thread) I think you misunderstood me. I have no problems with you interpreting Islam the way you do, I just had a problem with you saying "This is what Islam says about..." etc. That's a broad statement because there are 73 sects and they all have their interpretations and they also differ individual to individual. Whenever I say something, I make sure to note that this is 'my' view and the view of the Ahmadiyya sect (which some of the older members here know by now).



What this? {لا اكراه في الدين}

It means "There is no compulsion in religion"

I believe this is a very important point, i've always held that opinion, but a lot of people disagree.

 

[Hist]

If it's a reliable Hadith, i.e. if more than one Sahabi has written accounts of it (and I don't know what other factors are taking into account) than absolutely we give it weight.

I don't understand the last part of your question.

You do know that Ahmadiyya is usually described as unorthodox Islam? I dont know much about it but i saw Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as well as Bahaa'allah as people that saw Islam as incomplete with regards to modern topics and so modernized it to suit current ethical standards. But i don't buy the imam mahdi thing.
I don't know much so i wouldnt be able to argue back..and my claim is by no means supported.

 

[Zé Tahir]

You do know that Ahmadiyya is usually described as unorthodox Islam? I dont know much about it but i saw Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as well as Bahaa'allah as people that saw Islam as incomplete with regards to modern topics and so modernized it to suit current ethical standards. But i don't buy the imam mahdi thing.
I don't know much so i wouldnt be able to argue back..and my claim is by no means supported.

I'm very well aware of that. I'm from Pakistan, where we are officially "non-Muslim" and we are not allowed to preach, hand out our books/works, or even have the Kalima on our mosques.

Yeah, you really don't know if you're comparing Bahaullah to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad If you're interested I can give you some links though.

 

[Hist]

I'm very well aware of that. I'm from Pakistan, where we are officially "non-Muslim" and we are not allowed to preach, hand out our books/works, or even have the Kalima on our mosques.

Yeah, you really don't know if you're comparing Bahaullah to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad If you're interested I can give you some links though.

Looks like we are spending the summer together so pm me whatever you think is the best material so that i can go through it when i have the time.
Your biggest challenge is to be able to convince me of Mirza Ghulam's prophethood.
I am not sure about mohammed to begin with

 

[Zé Tahir]

Looks like we are spending the summer together so pm me whatever you think is the best material so that i can go through it when i have the time.
Your biggest challenge is to be able to convince me of Mirza Ghulam's prophethood.
I am not sure about mohammed to begin with

Then I guess I'll have to start with that Yeah we do, check your pm at some point this week. I'm going home for a few days now.

 

[Hist]

Then I guess I'll have to start with that Yeah we do, check your pm at some point this week. I'm going home for a few days now.

cheers (in case you didnt get it)