What Are You Doing Right Now? (181 Viewers)

[swag]

@swag I have a neighbor down the street who is planning on applying for lifetime Visa in Portugal just in case things go south here. She's been to Portugal several times and absolutely loves it, so now I'm intrigued. But she doesn't have any family or ancestry there. How difficult is it for a complete outsider to get this Visa in Portugal?

Andries jokes about FIRE. I didn't quite go for that myself, but it kinda conveniently happened when I looked at my cost of living, my life priorities, my resources, and did the math. I'm still in my 50s, so why not? And living in Portugal, the cost of living does allow me to do that way earlier than I could living in the U.S.

Portugal has the D7 visa, "a passive income residency visa", which I could qualify for myself now if I wasn't married to a Porkchop already. There are also retirement and digital nomad long-term visas. I know a number of people who are here on D7s. (I came on an EU family reunion visa given my wife's citizenship.) They seem relatively straightforward to get if you qualify. The '"golden visa" angle also exists, though they've clamped down on some of the cases that were abused more (i.e., buying expensive apartments in major cities as the qualifying investment).

All of them I think offer paths to citizenship. That said, I started my own citizenship application over 5 years ago as the wife of a citizen and I am still waiting. And of the people I've heard applying for citizenship here, it still remains mythical and not factual. I have yet to meet a single new citizen. But the bureaucracy is real and I could just be a matter of another year or so.

But I have essentially a permanent residency at least, a "green card". And sometimes that can count for more than citizenship. (Just ask any Canadian citizen trying to buy property in Canada but haven't been living in the country for a while: non-citizen residents can sometimes have more rights than non-resident citizens.) And I really do enjoy the life here. As they say, Portugal is an amazing place to live and a horrible place to work. So once you got the work situation settled...

Pros:
-if your ideal in life is eating grilled fish with friends and a bottle of Portuguese wine at the beach and watching the sunset, you are in heaven
-healthcare is excellent... cost aside, I like it better than U.S. healthcare even if there can be fewer choices of medications that are available here, etc. Americans are addicted for having 47 choices of everything, and here you may get 1-3.
-people are awesome. Which helps because this is a people-first, transaction-second culture. Portuguese are also generally the most chill Europeans I know.
-generally Western European-level infrastructure at an Eastern European price
-cost of living is getting higher, but it's dope compared to the U.S.
-insanely safe by American standards. Women can walk home from the train at night at 11pm and generally not be worried about it. (You still need to be smart of course.)

Cons:
-most of the dog walkers in your neighborhood get paid more than most people here
-more to the south of the country, people still smoke cigarettes quite a bit and haven't gotten the memo
-super polite people get their therapy here as demonic monsters when behind the wheel
-people are incapable of handling their dogs here
-none of the instant gratification conveniences of the U.S. where entire industries are set up to sell and ship you things within 24 hours before you even thought about them; but I have come to personally see this more as a pro rather than a con
-while it's easy to make expat friends, making friends with natives is harder ... and critical, since then you really get to know the country and how things work

 

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[Siamak]

I've been thinking about this lately. How do you all currently feel about your careers?

I'm thinking to switch to Web Developer and backend developer which enable me to work remotely، I just don't want to be physically present at work. Before getting old and reaching 40 years want to fulfil my dream of self employing.

 

[Bjerknes]

Andries jokes about FIRE. I didn't quite go for that myself, but it kinda conveniently happened when I looked at my cost of living, my life priorities, my resources, and did the math. I'm still in my 50s, so why not? And living in Portugal, the cost of living does allow me to do that way earlier than I could living in the U.S.

Portugal has the D7 visa, "a passive income residency visa", which I could qualify for myself now if I wasn't married to a Porkchop already. There are also retirement and digital nomad long-term visas. I know a number of people who are here on D7s. (I came on an EU family reunion visa given my wife's citizenship.) They seem relatively straightforward to get if you qualify. The '"golden visa" angle also exists, though they've clamped down on some of the cases that were abused more (i.e., buying expensive apartments in major cities as the qualifying investment).

All of them I think offer paths to citizenship. That said, I started my own citizenship application over 5 years ago as the wife of a citizen and I am still waiting. And of the people I've heard applying for citizenship here, it still remains mythical and not factual. I have yet to meet a single new citizen. But the bureaucracy is real and I could just be a matter of another year or so.

But I have essentially a permanent residency at least, a "green card". And sometimes that can count for more than citizenship. (Just ask any Canadian citizen trying to buy property in Canada but haven't been living in the country for a while: non-citizen residents can sometimes have more rights than non-resident citizens.) And I really do enjoy the life here. As they say, Portugal is an amazing place to live and a horrible place to work. So once you got the work situation settled...

Pros:
-if your ideal in life is eating grilled fish with friends and a bottle of Portuguese wine at the beach and watching the sunset, you are in heaven
-healthcare is excellent... cost aside, I like it better than U.S. healthcare even if there can be fewer choices of medications that are available here, etc. Americans are addicted for having 47 choices of everything, and here you may get 1-3.
-people are awesome. Which helps because this is a people-first, transaction-second culture. Portuguese are also generally the most chill Europeans I know.
-generally Western European-level infrastructure at an Eastern European price
-cost of living is getting higher, but it's dope compared to the U.S.

Cons:
-most of the dog walkers in your neighborhood get paid more than most people here
-more to the south of the country, people still smoke cigarettes quite a bit and haven't gotten the memo
-super polite people get their therapy here as demonic monsters when behind the wheel
-people are incapable of handling their dogs here
-none of the instant gratification conveniences of the U.S. where entire industries are set up to sell and ship you things within 24 hours before you even thought about them; but I have come to personally see this more as a pro rather than a con
-while it's easy to make expat friends, making friends with natives is harder ... and critical, since then you really get to know the country and how things work

That's really good to know, thanks. Do the D7's allow one to purchase properties, or at least rent?

I'm definitely a huge lover of grilled fish and wine, plus love the canines. Sounds like a great place to me.

I guess the major stumbling block for someone like me would be the language, which obviously would take time to learn. Also, not sure how my company or others would feel about working remotely in a foreign country. We have offices in Europe and Asia, but my home base is in DC.

 

[swag]

That's really good to know, thanks. Do the D7's allow one to purchase properties, or at least rent?

I'm definitely a huge lover of grilled fish and wine, plus love the canines. Sounds like a great place to me.

I guess the major stumbling block for someone like me would be the language, which obviously would take time to learn. Also, not sure how my company or others would feel about working remotely in a foreign country. We have offices in Europe and Asia, but my home base is in DC.

I also forgot to mention friends who joked "I came for the bureaucracy". Government services work, but they can be slow and very aggravating.

As for the D7s, yes, I don't believe you need citizenship to purchase a property at all. So you could be a D7 and buy. And if you have a D7, no problem renting. The only hitch is that without a system here like the US "credit history/record", you may have to front a few months up front unless you get a lawyer as a service to vouch for you. (Lawyers are weird here... they cut through bureaucracy like butter and so are definitely worth it from time to time. More power to Andries.)

The language is a curious one. The dirty secret is you can get by with English. This is not like Spain where people are clueless unless you lisp your best Speedy Gonzales. Most people speak some English, though there are exceptions and that can slow you down a little. But most businesses have some English speakers that can help.

But to try to be part of the culture more, and learn the culture more from the inside, I do encourage learning it. It definitely opens doors, even if they're just social doors.

And I know a lot of expats here who are working for remote companies and haven't exactly disclosed their locations, which could set everybody up for tax headaches.

Because that's the other thing you learn: the U.S. is the world worst tax mobster and pretty much shakes down countries everywhere to get after their citizens' earnings and holdings on foreign soil.

 

[swag]

Btw, Portugal comes in 12th ("Very High" proficiency) among this Best Non-Native English Speaking Countries In The World, 2024:

https://ceoworld.biz/2024/04/08/best-non-native-english-speaking-countries-in-the-world-2024/

Seems fairly accurate from experience. We're not the Netherlands. But who is? And we don't say "there" like "dhere".

 

[Bjerknes]

I also forgot to mention friends who joked "I came for the bureaucracy". Government services work, but they can be slow and very aggravating.

As for the D7s, yes, I don't believe you need citizenship to purchase a property at all. So you could be a D7 and buy. And if you have a D7, no problem renting. The only hitch is that without a system here like the US "credit history/record", you may have to front a few months up front unless you get a lawyer as a service to vouch for you. (Lawyers are weird here... they cut through bureaucracy like butter and so are definitely worth it from time to time. More power to Andries.)

The language is a curious one. The dirty secret is you can get by with English. This is not like Spain where people are clueless unless you lisp your best Speedy Gonzales. Most people speak some English, though there are exceptions and that can slow you down a little. But most businesses have some English speakers that can help.

But to try to be part of the culture more, and learn the culture more from the inside, I do encourage learning it. It definitely opens doors, even if they're just social doors.

And I know a lot of expats here who are working for remote companies and haven't exactly disclosed their locations, which could set everybody up for tax headaches.

Because that's the other thing you learn: the U.S. is the world worst tax mobster and pretty much shakes down countries everywhere to get after their citizens' earnings and holdings on foreign soil.

That makes sense. I guess another option is a long-term AirBnB or something similar just to get your feet on the ground. I'd also have to figure out how to get the doggies there.

 

[swag]

That makes sense. I guess another option is a long-term AirBnB or something similar just to get your feet on the ground. I'd also have to figure out how to get the doggies there.

I did that for the first 3 months before getting a long-term rental least. Then another couple years (and Covid) before buying something. We wanted to get a feel for what we were buying first. Though it's scary how many people do buy stuff sight unseen. I think that's insane.

In a place like Lisbon, you might get sticker shock at the apartment prices and even rents. But go further out in the countryside and things get much cheaper and less of a hassle.

 

[Seven]

Andries jokes about FIRE. I didn't quite go for that myself, but it kinda conveniently happened when I looked at my cost of living, my life priorities, my resources, and did the math. I'm still in my 50s, so why not? And living in Portugal, the cost of living does allow me to do that way earlier than I could living in the U.S.

Portugal has the D7 visa, "a passive income residency visa", which I could qualify for myself now if I wasn't married to a Porkchop already. There are also retirement and digital nomad long-term visas. I know a number of people who are here on D7s. (I came on an EU family reunion visa given my wife's citizenship.) They seem relatively straightforward to get if you qualify. The '"golden visa" angle also exists, though they've clamped down on some of the cases that were abused more (i.e., buying expensive apartments in major cities as the qualifying investment).

All of them I think offer paths to citizenship. That said, I started my own citizenship application over 5 years ago as the wife of a citizen and I am still waiting. And of the people I've heard applying for citizenship here, it still remains mythical and not factual. I have yet to meet a single new citizen. But the bureaucracy is real and I could just be a matter of another year or so.

But I have essentially a permanent residency at least, a "green card". And sometimes that can count for more than citizenship. (Just ask any Canadian citizen trying to buy property in Canada but haven't been living in the country for a while: non-citizen residents can sometimes have more rights than non-resident citizens.) And I really do enjoy the life here. As they say, Portugal is an amazing place to live and a horrible place to work. So once you got the work situation settled...

Pros:
-if your ideal in life is eating grilled fish with friends and a bottle of Portuguese wine at the beach and watching the sunset, you are in heaven
-healthcare is excellent... cost aside, I like it better than U.S. healthcare even if there can be fewer choices of medications that are available here, etc. Americans are addicted for having 47 choices of everything, and here you may get 1-3.
-people are awesome. Which helps because this is a people-first, transaction-second culture. Portuguese are also generally the most chill Europeans I know.
-generally Western European-level infrastructure at an Eastern European price
-cost of living is getting higher, but it's dope compared to the U.S.
-insanely safe by American standards. Women can walk home from the train at night at 11pm and generally not be worried about it. (You still need to be smart of course.)

Cons:
-most of the dog walkers in your neighborhood get paid more than most people here
-more to the south of the country, people still smoke cigarettes quite a bit and haven't gotten the memo
-super polite people get their therapy here as demonic monsters when behind the wheel
-people are incapable of handling their dogs here
-none of the instant gratification conveniences of the U.S. where entire industries are set up to sell and ship you things within 24 hours before you even thought about them; but I have come to personally see this more as a pro rather than a con
-while it's easy to make expat friends, making friends with natives is harder ... and critical, since then you really get to know the country and how things work

Great post.

I would add one con though. A couple of years ago my brother had a Zambian girlfriend and things were pretty serious, but she didn't want to leave Zambia and live in Europe. Which I understand, because the cultures are very different and let's face it, weather just sucks in Belgium. So it came up that maybe he should go and live in Zambia. Theoretically you could save up money for a couple years in Belgium and then live quite comfortably for an extended period of time over there.

The thing is though: what if you want to go back? You haven't made "Europe" kind of money in the meantime. Your savings might mean something in Zambia, but they're nothing in Europe. Even travelling back and forth might bcome too expensive soon. If you move to a place with a lower cost of living, I think that's only a good idea if you're willing to stay there.

Specifically for Portugal I would also say that the Portuguese have lower salaries than pretty much any country in Western Europe. If you budget for Portugal, that means that countries like the Netherlands or Sweden quickly become unreachable.

 

[swag]

Great post.

I would add one con though. A couple of years ago my brother had a Zambian girlfriend and things were pretty serious, but she didn't want to leave Zambia and live in Europe. Which I understand, because the cultures are very different and let's face it, weather just sucks in Belgium. So it came up that maybe he should go and live in Zambia. Theoretically you could save up money for a couple years in Belgium and then live quite comfortably for an extended period of time over there.

The thing is though: what if you want to go back? You haven't made "Europe" kind of money in the meantime. Your savings might mean something in Zambia, but they're nothing in Europe. Even travelling back and forth might bcome too expensive soon. If you move to a place with a lower cost of living, I think that's only a good idea if you're willing to stay there.

Specifically for Portugal I would also say that the Portuguese have lower salaries than pretty much any country in Western Europe. If you budget for Portugal, that means that countries like the Netherlands or Sweden quickly become unreachable.

Oh, this is absolutely true. The cost of living works for you when you live there. But the more time you spend abroad, you will feel the pain.

Yesterday I had a coffee with an MIT grad who went from civil to software engineering. A black American from a New York Jamaican family who moved here for something less stressful than NYC. Was trying to help her out with some career advice around Portugal, where she makes a fraction what she did in the U.S. The cost of visiting family back home came up, depending on how often she did it and how long she stayed. And she rightly thought she could save more money working a U.S. wage.

And when I sold my house in San Francisco a few years ago, I could never go back. I couldn't afford my own house. If for nothing else than the property taxes. With Prop 13, my seemingly ridiculous property taxes capped at 2% increases since 2000 would have at least been 3-5x.

But to the extent Andy would be getting paid out of a US company, then that's the ideal.

 

[Osman]

Greg put it best by saying Western European infrastructure with Eastern European prices. It was surprising when I was there.


And yeah defenitely one of the most easy going chill people I been around. I really wanna go back.

Visit there or live there as retiree or semi retiree I get (I have few childhood friends who's parents moved to Portugal in old age). But living and working there, I can imagine it would get kinda depressing noticing how little the people get paid there compared to what we used to back home. Especially people in public service sector.

But that's the way things go, so you accept and get used to it I take it.

 

[Seven]

Greg put it best by saying Western European infrastructure with Eastern European prices. It was surprising when I was there.


And yeah defenitely one of the most easy going chill people I been around. I really wanna go back.

Visit there or live there as retiree or semi retiree I get (I have few childhood friends who's parents moved to Portugal in old age). But living and working there, I can imagine it would get kinda depressing noticing how little the people get paid there compared to what we used to back home. Especially people in public service sector.

But that's the way things go, so you accept and get used to it I take it.

The problem with countries like Portugal, Spain or Italy is exactly this.

Let's say you're in Sweden. You get shit weather year round. So, you know, it would be nice to have a property in let's say Puglia. Great weather May-October. A house with a garden by the sea costs a fraction of what you're spending in any Swedish city. And what's more: it's not like you're in Africa or parts of Asia. If you get sick, you could easily go to a trustworthy physician. Hell, if you drive there and have an accident: don't worry, your Swedish insurance will cover it as long as you spend most of your time in Sweden.

The bigger the wage gap between Italians and Swedes, the more interesting buying something in Italy becomes.

The downside for Italians is that eventually the prices of their homes will go up as foreigners start to buy them. Not to mention that the social fabric of villages starts to change and that sometimes these villages have little to no inhabitants in the winter months (especially as Italians themselves are prone to working further up North in Italy, then go back for summer).

Do we have to prevent this from happening entirely? Probably not. It's normal for people to migrate from time to time. But maybe this is a bit of a perverted effect from the European Union, where it has made mobility very easy for the citizens of 'richer' countries which just leads to them gaining even more assets in Southern Europe.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

@Quetzalcoatl do you still feel mosquito bites? I did when I was a kid but I'm pretty much immune now. I only feel them if I go near a river in the Amazon.

I've never felt a mosquito bite in the UK or mainland Europe. Midges though, those cocksuckers bite hard.

Yeah, same. Don't really feel the bites anymore or get the big red swollen spots like when I was a kid.

But the massive Canadian ones I mentioned before, those were unbearable.

 

[Seven]

Yeah, same. Don't really feel the bites anymore or get the big red swollen spots like when I was a kid.

But the massive Canadian ones I mentioned before, those were unbearable.

I think mosquitoes are the absolute worst in the Yukon and Alaska.

It's just the sheer quantity of them. You get out of your car and millions upon millions seem to be sitting on you immediately. And it's not like the fuckers get scared. If you try to hit and kill them, they don't even move. They don't care. They know their strength is in numbers.

Granted, it does differ a bit from place to place, but overall I found it be quite crazy compared to my European experience lol.

 

[Osman]

Talking about mosquitos in Europe is crazy to me. I almost never noticed them in Sweden, or anywhere I been to in West and south Europe.


But in Kenya tho, holy shit I wanted to run away my first night sleeping in the countryside LOL

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I think mosquitoes are the absolute worst in the Yukon and Alaska.

It's just the sheer quantity of them. You get out of your car and millions upon millions seem to be sitting on you immediately. And it's not like the fuckers get scared. If you try to hit and kill them, they don't even move. They don't care. They know their strength is in numbers.

Granted, it does differ a bit from place to place, but overall I found it be quite crazy compared to my European experience lol.

It's so fun to take one of those mosquito swatter zappers and just see and hear them spark and pop.

 

[Seven]

Oh, this is absolutely true. The cost of living works for you when you live there. But the more time you spend abroad, you will feel the pain.

Yesterday I had a coffee with an MIT grad who went from civil to software engineering. A black American from a New York Jamaican family who moved here for something less stressful than NYC. Was trying to help her out with some career advice around Portugal, where she makes a fraction what she did in the U.S. The cost of visiting family back home came up, depending on how often she did it and how long she stayed. And she rightly thought she could save more money working a U.S. wage.

And when I sold my house in San Francisco a few years ago, I could never go back. I couldn't afford my own house. If for nothing else than the property taxes. With Prop 13, my seemingly ridiculous property taxes capped at 2% increases since 2000 would have at least been 3-5x.

But to the extent Andy would be getting paid out of a US company, then that's the ideal.

I have to say I don't understand the vast differences in cost of living within the USA.

If you visit the national parks in the West, the prices don't seem too crazy for people from Western Europe. It's not like the prices of food for example are that much higher than what we're used to. But then appartments can seemingly cost millions and millions of dollars in New York and you can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year working in Silicon Valley.

 

[IliveForJuve]

It's so fun to take one of those mosquito swatter zappers and just see and hear them spark and pop.

Or using a salt shotgun to kill them little fuckers. It's so satisfying seeing dozens of them die with a single shot.

https://www.bugasalt.co.uk/

 

[Osman]

The problem with countries like Portugal, Spain or Italy is exactly this.

.

The downside for Italians is that eventually the prices of their homes will go up as foreigners start to buy them.

Swedes expat migrate to and buy up much more on Spain then Italy. Most of western Europe do when it comes to Spain. To the point protests like these happen:



https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/08/travel/barcelona-tourism-protests-scli-intl/index.html

 

[U Picciriddu]

Opinions?

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

I have to say I don't understand the vast differences in cost of living within the USA.

If you visit the national parks in the West, the prices don't seem too crazy for people from Western Europe. It's not like the prices of food for example are that much higher than what we're used to. But then appartments can seemingly cost millions and millions of dollars in New York and you can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year working in Silicon Valley.

In some cases like this, it's better to think of states as different countries.