What Are You Doing Right Now? (305 Viewers)

[ALC]

Opinions?

makes great sense for a place like the Netherlands.

I wonder who’ll pay for the cars tho, if I never used it, I wouldn’t want to pay for it.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[AFL_ITALIA]

Opinions?

No way those cars are going to stay in good condition.

I love the bike emphasis and wish we had better infrastructure for it here.

 

[Seven]

No way those cars are going to stay in good condition.

I love the bike emphasis and wish we had better infrastructure for it here.

Tragedy of the commons.

 

[swag]

The problem with countries like Portugal, Spain or Italy is exactly this.

Let's say you're in Sweden. You get shit weather year round. So, you know, it would be nice to have a property in let's say Puglia. Great weather May-October. A house with a garden by the sea costs a fraction of what you're spending in any Swedish city. And what's more: it's not like you're in Africa or parts of Asia. If you get sick, you could easily go to a trustworthy physician. Hell, if you drive there and have an accident: don't worry, your Swedish insurance will cover it as long as you spend most of your time in Sweden.

The bigger the wage gap between Italians and Swedes, the more interesting buying something in Italy becomes.

The downside for Italians is that eventually the prices of their homes will go up as foreigners start to buy them. Not to mention that the social fabric of villages starts to change and that sometimes these villages have little to no inhabitants in the winter months (especially as Italians themselves are prone to working further up North in Italy, then go back for summer).

Do we have to prevent this from happening entirely? Probably not. It's normal for people to migrate from time to time. But maybe this is a bit of a perverted effect from the European Union, where it has made mobility very easy for the citizens of 'richer' countries which just leads to them gaining even more assets in Southern Europe.

It's a problem to some extent, though not among the biggest headaches. And it's not just because they're Swedes and not Italians in that example, though that does start to erode the very thing that draws the Swedes (or tourists) in the first place.

I hate Florence because, while it has so much culture and history to offer, whenever I (rarely) go there it's overrun with Americans. It's like, "Why dafuq did I spend airfare and 12 hours of flying just to wind up surrounded by Texans in an Italian theme park?"

But yeah, the Puglia economy shifts and even the Italians get in on the act of raising their standards of living by profiting off of Swedes wanting to move or visit there. They switch careers and now cater to Swedish interests, working in the Swedish hospitality sector or converting properties from food production to Swedish spa retreats.

And then the next thing you know, the local market isn't selling taralli and cartellate anymore, but they start selling kavring and gravad lax.

And that's how it starts.

 

[Seven]

It's a problem to some extent, though not among the biggest headaches. And it's not just because they're Swedes and not Italians in that example, though that does start to erode the very thing that draws the Swedes (or tourists) in the first place.

I hate Florence because, while it has so much culture and history to offer, whenever I (rarely) go there it's overrun with Americans. It's like, "Why dafuq did I spend airfare and 12 hours of flying just to wind up surrounded by Texans in an Italian theme park?"

But yeah, the Puglia economy shifts and even the Italians get in on the act of raising their standards of living by profiting off of Swedes wanting to move or visit there. They switch careers and now cater to Swedish interests, working in the Swedish hospitality sector or converting properties from food production to Swedish spa retreats.

And then the next thing you know, the local market isn't selling taralli and cartellate anymore, but they start selling kavring and gravad lax.

And that's how it starts.

Florence is a striking example of a city that has zero social fabric.

One of my best friends worked and lived there for years. It's impossible to make friends from Florence, because no one actually seems to be part of the city. Everyone is coming and going. And you're right: Florence is always overrun by Americans. Part of it might be that it is almost as appealing as Rome, but is much smaller. Americans, often being quite loud, might not be noticed as much in a larger city such as Rome. But in Florence, yeah, you can't escape them.

- - - Updated - - -

Swedes expat migrate to and buy up much more on Spain then Italy. Most of western Europe do when it comes to Spain. To the point protests like these happen:



https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/08/travel/barcelona-tourism-protests-scli-intl/index.html

Spain is very popular among Dutch and Belgians too. I even think there are a couple of cities that are now basically Dutch lol.

After Covid and during the energy crisis plenty of older Belgians also chose to simply spend their winters in Spain as it would be cheaper to live there, sometimes even paying for a hotel for the entire time, than it would be to pay for heating in Belgium.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

It's a problem to some extent, though not among the biggest headaches. And it's not just because they're Swedes and not Italians in that example, though that does start to erode the very thing that draws the Swedes (or tourists) in the first place.

I hate Florence because, while it has so much culture and history to offer, whenever I (rarely) go there it's overrun with Americans. It's like, "Why dafuq did I spend airfare and 12 hours of flying just to wind up surrounded by Texans in an Italian theme park?"

But yeah, the Puglia economy shifts and even the Italians get in on the act of raising their standards of living by profiting off of Swedes wanting to move or visit there. They switch careers and now cater to Swedish interests, working in the Swedish hospitality sector or converting properties from food production to Swedish spa retreats.

And then the next thing you know, the local market isn't selling taralli and cartellate anymore, but they start selling kavring and gravad lax.

And that's how it starts.

Ok. Let me start by saying never in my life have I left the United States. These days, everyone travels everywhere, all the time. To me, it almost feels like sometimes people are just trying to fill out a checklist of locations and take pictures for Instagram than actually experience anything. I get the impression that all of these historic cities are now, like you said, essentially a theme park. Is there even authenticity left? Is it actually even really worth it anymore?

 

[Seven]

Ok. Let me start by saying never in my life have I left the United States. These days, everyone travels everywhere, all the time. To me, it almost feels like sometimes people are just trying to fill out a checklist of locations and take pictures for Instagram than actually experience anything. I get the impression that all of these historic cities are now, like you said, essentially a theme park. Is there even authenticity left? Is it actually even really worth it anymore?

Yes, definitely.

It's hard to explain, but different countries and cities have their own atmosphere, customs and foods. And frankly, a lot of places are awesome in their own way. Florence is a bit of a theme park, yes. But the millennia of culture in Rome for instance do not get erased just because you have tourists visiting.

 

[ALC]

Ok. Let me start by saying never in my life have I left the United States. These days, everyone travels everywhere, all the time. To me, it almost feels like sometimes people are just trying to fill out a checklist of locations and take pictures for Instagram than actually experience anything. I get the impression that all of these historic cities are now, like you said, essentially a theme park. Is there even authenticity left? Is it actually even really worth it anymore?

I definitely recommend traveling a bit. My favorite city so far has been Vienna, it’s paradise.

 

[swag]

Ok. Let me start by saying never in my life have I left the United States. These days, everyone travels everywhere, all the time. To me, it almost feels like sometimes people are just trying to fill out a checklist of locations and take pictures for Instagram than actually experience anything. I get the impression that all of these historic cities are now, like you said, essentially a theme park. Is there even authenticity left? Is it actually even really worth it anymore?

No worries. You're in the majority you know.

And your completely right about people filling a checklist, getting in line behind 12 others for the required Insta shot, etc. Much of popular travel has become just another form of consumption. Like Joey Chestnut scarfing down popular international photography locations instead of hot dogs.

There are a lot of historic places that have succumbed to the tourism demands of access, residency, and easy money that pays better than working a real job as a local. Florence actually is an amazing place with fantastic art and history. But being submersed in so many tourists at once (and particularly all American ones), it can feel more like the Venice of The Venetian in Vegas than the one in Italy.

Granted, at least the Venice canals are clean and nice in Vegas.

Even so, if you haven't gone once, it still might be worth going. For just once at least. And at least tempered with the expectations that it's going to feel more like a theme park at times, depending on where you go. As Andries points out, Rome is a little better because at least it seems to have the size and local culture to better hide the hoards of tourists who come through daily.

And do it your own way.

Two weekends ago I was reminded of how great it was to go to someplace off-beat. And I shouldn't need reminding, but there it was. Mixing in surprises where there aren't tourists can salvage everything if it becomes too much. I'll explain my example...

We spent a few days visiting the small, ancient town of Beja, Portugal, about a two-hour drive outside of Lisbon in the Alentejo countryside. The excuse was largely bureaucratic: I needed a new photo taken for my Portuguese driver’s license, and their DMV was going to be the most efficient.

It was a revelation. An old castle town with a multi-layered, rough history that went back to the Celts as a strategic location in the 3rd/4th century B.C. Julius Ceasar named the settlement “Pax Julia” in 48 BC in honor of it being where he made peace with the Lusitanians. And from the Roman architecture that remains, add the Visigoths and their art/architecture, the Moors, the Christian Reconquista, and additional layers of Gothic, Medieval, and Baroque architecture on top of that. The rural town with virtually no tourists was an archeological lasagna.

It was very much what I enjoy about Portugal. Despite it's imposing 1253 castle, where the town depopulated due to waves of deadly battles between Moors and Christians, it's a place with no real "the thing" you have to see here. It's all about getting lost in the streets and discovering new surprises, large and small. Eating at casual taverns with rustic, simple but fantastic food.

 

[icemaη]

That makes sense. I guess another option is a long-term AirBnB or something similar just to get your feet on the ground. I'd also have to figure out how to get the doggies there.

You can find pet relocation services and they are generally reasonably priced for the service they offer. I moved three cats from India to the UK and was pretty worried about the whole thing, but it all went smoothly because the relocation agency knew what they were doing.
Also, fuck Airbnb

 

[icemaη]

Andries jokes about FIRE. I didn't quite go for that myself, but it kinda conveniently happened when I looked at my cost of living, my life priorities, my resources, and did the math. I'm still in my 50s, so why not? And living in Portugal, the cost of living does allow me to do that way earlier than I could living in the U.S.

Portugal has the D7 visa, "a passive income residency visa", which I could qualify for myself now if I wasn't married to a Porkchop already. There are also retirement and digital nomad long-term visas. I know a number of people who are here on D7s. (I came on an EU family reunion visa given my wife's citizenship.) They seem relatively straightforward to get if you qualify. The '"golden visa" angle also exists, though they've clamped down on some of the cases that were abused more (i.e., buying expensive apartments in major cities as the qualifying investment).

All of them I think offer paths to citizenship. That said, I started my own citizenship application over 5 years ago as the wife of a citizen and I am still waiting. And of the people I've heard applying for citizenship here, it still remains mythical and not factual. I have yet to meet a single new citizen. But the bureaucracy is real and I could just be a matter of another year or so.

But I have essentially a permanent residency at least, a "green card". And sometimes that can count for more than citizenship. (Just ask any Canadian citizen trying to buy property in Canada but haven't been living in the country for a while: non-citizen residents can sometimes have more rights than non-resident citizens.) And I really do enjoy the life here. As they say, Portugal is an amazing place to live and a horrible place to work. So once you got the work situation settled...

Pros:
-if your ideal in life is eating grilled fish with friends and a bottle of Portuguese wine at the beach and watching the sunset, you are in heaven
-healthcare is excellent... cost aside, I like it better than U.S. healthcare even if there can be fewer choices of medications that are available here, etc. Americans are addicted for having 47 choices of everything, and here you may get 1-3.
-people are awesome. Which helps because this is a people-first, transaction-second culture. Portuguese are also generally the most chill Europeans I know.
-generally Western European-level infrastructure at an Eastern European price
-cost of living is getting higher, but it's dope compared to the U.S.
-insanely safe by American standards. Women can walk home from the train at night at 11pm and generally not be worried about it. (You still need to be smart of course.)

Cons:
-most of the dog walkers in your neighborhood get paid more than most people here
-more to the south of the country, people still smoke cigarettes quite a bit and haven't gotten the memo
-super polite people get their therapy here as demonic monsters when behind the wheel
-people are incapable of handling their dogs here
-none of the instant gratification conveniences of the U.S. where entire industries are set up to sell and ship you things within 24 hours before you even thought about them; but I have come to personally see this more as a pro rather than a con
-while it's easy to make expat friends, making friends with natives is harder ... and critical, since then you really get to know the country and how things work

I need to come visit you in Portugal, maybe even recreate the scooter ride from back in the day you had with Dhee. Anything for good grilled fish

 

[swag]

I need to come visit you in Portugal, maybe even recreate the scooter ride from back in the day you had with Dhee. Anything for good grilled fish

Oh, I'd love to see you here! Last remember seeing you in the San Francisco BART tunnels.

I would have seen you in London, where my last company's HQ was, but I quit and the company got sold to Korea.

Man, what a great memory that 4am scooter ride with Dhee was on the rough and bumpy streets of Bangalore after watching Juve win a match (remember those?).

And I can definitely hook you up with great grilled fish!

This fish place I went to in Beja? Homey place popular with the locals where the woman who owned it ran the joint while her husband was out on a boat in the ocean fishing the day's catch. Amazing.

 

[U Picciriddu]

There are a lot of historic places that have succumbed to the tourism demands of access, residency, and easy money that pays better than working a real job as a local. Florence actually is an amazing place with fantastic art and history. But being submersed in so many tourists at once (and particularly all American ones), it can feel more like the Venice of The Venetian in Vegas than the one in Italy.

I’ll be close to Florence next month for two weeks, honestly really curious what Toscany has to offer. Afterwards we’ll move up north for the last week around Lago di Garda

 

[swag]

I’ll be close to Florence next month for two weeks, honestly really curious what Toscany has to offer. Afterwards we’ll move up north for the last week around Lago di Garda

Tuscany has a lot to offer. Firenza you have see. But I like spending a little more time in Siena, but even that's been overrun like San Gimigniano. The hillside towns are nice though, like Montalcino, Montepulciano, etc. But getting further out from that should be great too. Never been to Lago di Garda. Only Como a couple decades ago... which was nice but filled with old people reliving WWII memories, and I hear it's sadly overrun with tourists now.

 

[Seven]

I’ll be close to Florence next month for two weeks, honestly really curious what Toscany has to offer. Afterwards we’ll move up north for the last week around Lago di Garda

Pici.

Tuscany has pici to offer.

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[Siamak]

Oh, this is absolutely true. The cost of living works for you when you live there. But the more time you spend abroad, you will feel the pain.

Yesterday I had a coffee with an MIT grad who went from civil to software engineering. A black American from a New York Jamaican family who moved here for something less stressful than NYC. Was trying to help her out with some career advice around Portugal, where she makes a fraction what she did in the U.S. The cost of visiting family back home came up, depending on how often she did it and how long she stayed. And she rightly thought she could save more money working a U.S. wage.

And when I sold my house in San Francisco a few years ago, I could never go back. I couldn't afford my own house. If for nothing else than the property taxes. With Prop 13, my seemingly ridiculous property taxes capped at 2% increases since 2000 would have at least been 3-5x.

But to the extent Andy would be getting paid out of a US company, then that's the ideal.

Great Post and very informative. It's what i have always been looking and instead of getting proper answer i used to get promotional videos on Youtube without any useful content .
Can you bring some comparison between Portugal and Scandinavian Countries? What's the situation out there like for foreigner job seekers such as IT Experts?
Which one is better for getting job as a foreigner job seeker? I heard foreigners face pretty bad racism by folks.

 

[swag]

Great Post and very informative. It's what i have always been looking and instead of getting proper answer i used to get promotional videos on Youtube without any useful content .
Can you bring some comparison between Portugal and Scandinavian Countries? What's the situation out there like for foreigner job seekers such as IT Experts?
Which one is better for getting job as a foreigner job seeker? I heard foreigners face pretty bad racism by folks.

I can’t speak to Scandinavia. We have a solid tech base here with great universities supplying new tech talent. But being a foreigner? I’m not entirely sure. A high-growth company with funding might seek ntwrnationals if you have specific skills or experience they need. Otherwise they’re bound to prefer the local supply.

So sorry I cannot compare them.

Racism does exist here. I mean, we invented modern colonial slavery after all. But there’s more of a racial integration I witness here than I see in most parts of Europe. Mixed race friends and couples are common and nobody bats an eye.

 

[Seven]

No worries. You're in the majority you know.

And your completely right about people filling a checklist, getting in line behind 12 others for the required Insta shot, etc. Much of popular travel has become just another form of consumption. Like Joey Chestnut scarfing down popular international photography locations instead of hot dogs.

There are a lot of historic places that have succumbed to the tourism demands of access, residency, and easy money that pays better than working a real job as a local. Florence actually is an amazing place with fantastic art and history. But being submersed in so many tourists at once (and particularly all American ones), it can feel more like the Venice of The Venetian in Vegas than the one in Italy.

Granted, at least the Venice canals are clean and nice in Vegas.

Even so, if you haven't gone once, it still might be worth going. For just once at least. And at least tempered with the expectations that it's going to feel more like a theme park at times, depending on where you go. As Andries points out, Rome is a little better because at least it seems to have the size and local culture to better hide the hoards of tourists who come through daily.

And do it your own way.

Two weekends ago I was reminded of how great it was to go to someplace off-beat. And I shouldn't need reminding, but there it was. Mixing in surprises where there aren't tourists can salvage everything if it becomes too much. I'll explain my example...

We spent a few days visiting the small, ancient town of Beja, Portugal, about a two-hour drive outside of Lisbon in the Alentejo countryside. The excuse was largely bureaucratic: I needed a new photo taken for my Portuguese driver’s license, and their DMV was going to be the most efficient.

It was a revelation. An old castle town with a multi-layered, rough history that went back to the Celts as a strategic location in the 3rd/4th century B.C. Julius Ceasar named the settlement “Pax Julia” in 48 BC in honor of it being where he made peace with the Lusitanians. And from the Roman architecture that remains, add the Visigoths and their art/architecture, the Moors, the Christian Reconquista, and additional layers of Gothic, Medieval, and Baroque architecture on top of that. The rural town with virtually no tourists was an archeological lasagna.

It was very much what I enjoy about Portugal. Despite it's imposing 1253 castle, where the town depopulated due to waves of deadly battles between Moors and Christians, it's a place with no real "the thing" you have to see here. It's all about getting lost in the streets and discovering new surprises, large and small. Eating at casual taverns with rustic, simple but fantastic food.

What you're describing is the real appeal of holidays in Europe. Go to any random town in Portugal, Spain or Italy and there will be historic buildings, there will be art and there will be a nice place to eat.

Whereas in the US, and I don't mean to insult anyone here, you have large parts with seemingly identical towns that exist of a gas station, a Starbucks and some type of fastfood joint.

Then again in the US you can drive, drive and drive some more. I personally love driving and I love hiking. As a holiday destination the US, and particularly the west, is paradise for me.

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[Seven]

I can’t speak to Scandinavia. We have a solid tech base here with great universities supplying new tech talent. But being a foreigner? I’m not entirely sure. A high-growth company with funding might seek ntwrnationals if you have specific skills or experience they need. Otherwise they’re bound to prefer the local supply.

So sorry I cannot compare them.

Racism does exist here. I mean, we invented modern colonial slavery after all. But there’s more of a racial integration I witness here than I see in most parts of Europe. Mixed race friends and couples are common and nobody bats an eye.

Not saying this is necessarily the case, but I would like to point out racism in Europe can be a lot more subtle than in the US.

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[swag]

What you're describing is the real appeal of holidays in Europe. Go to any random town in Portugal, Spain or Italy and there will be historic buildings, there will be art and there will be a nice place to eat.

Whereas in the US, and I don't mean to insult anyone here, you have large parts with seemingly identical towns that exist of a gas station, a Starbucks and some type of fastfood joint.

Then again in the US you can drive, drive and drive some more. I personally love driving and I love hiking. As a holiday destination the US, and particularly the west, is paradise for me.

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