Violence could halt Italian football/Calcio suspended (9 Viewers)

[AngelaL]

Rebel,

if anythingelse the values in the link you provided for us (thanks a lot again, you are truly the informer in this boardint is unestimating the financial value of Italian game. Serie A, IMHO, is highly unmarketed compared to its full potential, and with good management it is only going to grow bigger (Current debacle won't help).

BTW, people who are calling for the game to be stopped for a year IMO is totally irrational and without any idea what this issue is really about. Obviously suspending a game is rigtheous to reflect what this incident means to the game, but lets be realist here, a people who commit such evil deeds have very little self-conscience in the first place. The people who are mourning and regretting are those who have nothing to do with the whole saga. What we need is not a symbolic action but real reform. I am not sure whether the politicans and FIGC have the guts and brain to do something productive than all talking. If you feel sorry, then go out and make sure people who commit violence is punished so that it won't happen again.

Your quite right, Jun-hide. Whether or not Prodi's government or Figc have brains is very debatable. Halting football is a stupid idea. The cost to Italian football in revenue, players & (what's left of) Italian football's reputation would be enormous. It's obvious that these people are incompetent & should be replaced.

 

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[V]

Without some serious jail-time for quite a few hooligans it is never gonna stop. They can halt the leauge as much as they want but without some firm actions on the ultras it's not gonna stop. Violence in football is no better than any other kind of violence, I don't know why it's looked over. I know of tons of cases, from my country, where ultras beat up people, cops, trashed cars just becaus they're from the "wrong" city. Still almost no one gets anytime in prison.

A man lost his life, if they don't take some firm action they're gonna have even more trouble on their hands.

 

[Bjerknes]

No matter what people believe, hooliganism will always be a part of football. Without the supporters across the globe, football would be nowhere near where it is today. Football is nothing without its supporters. Hooliganism simply goes with the territory.

Like something such as this was never gonna happen..

 

[V]

It goes with the territory, yes, but it's got nothing with football. As someone who sees this kind of shit pretty frequently let me tell you that. When ultras(hooligans) gather around before the game they do so to get drunk, stoned, high whatever and they NEVER discuss the game, the player or the tactics. What they do discuss is where, how and when they will meet the opposing supporters and kick the shit out of them.

I've been on the stands with the ultras(hooligans) on some games here and I've seen people get beaten the shit out of them, even though they support the same team, just because they were not screaming and singing along with the rest of the crowd.

It's got nothing to do with football, simple as that.

 

[sateeh]

It goes with the territory, yes, but it's got nothing with football. As someone who sees this kind of shit pretty frequently let me tell you that. When ultras gather around before the game they do so to get drunk, stoned, high whatever and they NEVER discuss the game, the player or the tactics. What they do discuss is where, how and when they will meet the opposing supporters and kick the shit out of them.

I've been on the stands with the ultras on some games here and I've seen people get beaten the shit out of them, even though they support the same team, just because they were not screaming and singing along with the rest of the crowd.

It's got nothing to do with football, simple as that.

 

[Cronios]

The state and the police surrender to the hooligans?
they choose again to punish the easy victim (football) and ignore the real criminals and the root of the problem,
we ve seen that again...

 

[Jun-hide]

It goes with the territory, yes, but it's got nothing with football. As someone who sees this kind of shit pretty frequently let me tell you that. When ultras gather around before the game they do so to get drunk, stoned, high whatever and they NEVER discuss the game, the player or the tactics. What they do discuss is where, how and when they will meet the opposing supporters and kick the shit out of them.

I've been on the stands with the ultras on some games here and I've seen people get beaten the shit out of them, even though they support the same team, just because they were not screaming and singing along with the rest of the crowd.

It's got nothing to do with football, simple as that.

Good post vlatkoint: .

As I have said, I like the unique culture created within the match game by the ultras. I have been to both Serie A and Premiership matches, but for me, at least, I found Serie A matches to be a bit more tense, and orchestrated than say EPL.

As you said, the issue is not black and white - its to a degree. I agree with Andy that to certain degree Hooliganism is irradicable. In England, everyone was chanting, "Refree is a wanker." In Italia, everyone chanted "Vaffanculo" whenever decision went against their team. I can assure you football stadium is not a place to educate moral to the kids. But bringing sticks, homemade bombs, and throwing fireworks against your team IMO is not fanship is about.

 

[ReBeL]

Marco Mazzocchi, a soccer analyst who is host of a weekly television show, said people had hoped that the fallout from the game-fixing scandal would improve matters. "Everyone thought that things would change, but they didn't," he said.

Mazzochi sees the violence as a symptom of general disillusionment and anger among Italian soccer fans who still feel betrayed by the soccer scandal and the lack of accountability, coupled with a general perception of a shortage of justice in the country.

"For me the first thing is to throw out everyone who runs Italian soccer," he said. "The stadiums are old, the tickets cost a lot and so the fans arrive and they are already angry.

"The fans feel that the soccer world doesn't respect them and we are hearing these days the same phrases from officials that we have heard in the past. If they don't do something now, Italian soccer will die."

 

[JCK]

We all waited for drastic changes in the league after the scandal but it was fixed like we say in Lebanon "bazze2 w lazze2" which means glue using spit. I think it will harm the football even more if they are to fix such problems when the season already started.

 

[V]

Good post vlatkoint: .

As I have said, I like the unique culture created within the match game by the ultras. I have been to both Serie A and Premiership matches, but for me, at least, I found Serie A matches to be a bit more tense, and orchestrated than say EPL.

As you said, the issue is not black and white - its to a degree. I agree with Andy that to certain degree Hooliganism is irradicable. In England, everyone was chanting, "Refree is a wanker." In Italia, everyone chanted "Vaffanculo" whenever decision went against their team. I can assure you football stadium is not a place to educate moral to the kids. But bringing sticks, homemade bombs, and throwing fireworks against your team IMO is not fanship is about.

The English supporters that go to matches now are what we call "Theatre audience" in Croatia, though it certainly has it's advantages as you are 100% safe there and can bring a kid along with you, it's just not the same without the Ultras' chants, songs, the whole deal.

Don't get me wrong with my previous post, there are normal Ultras that can still make one fiery atmosphere on the stands and not cause riots, our fans from this WC were such an example, they were simply brilliant IMO.

Hooliganism must be separated from the Ultras, when I say Ultras I mean true fans, because like I said they have absolutelly no interest in football, they're just that, hooligans and stadiums would be a better place without them.

 

[Dominic]

Well i'm quite sure football will be back this weekend.

 

[Jun-hide]

The English supporters that go to matches now are what we call "Theatre audience" in Croatia, though it certainly has it's advantages as you are 100% safe there and can bring a kid along with you, it's just not the same without the Ultras' chants, songs, the whole deal.

Don't get me wrong with my previous post, there are normal Ultras that can still make one fiery atmosphere on the stands and not cause riots, our fans from this WC were such an example, they were simply brilliant IMO.

Hooliganism must be separated from the Ultras, when I say Ultras I mean true fans, because like I said they have absolutelly no interest in football, they're just that, hooligans and stadiums would be a better place without them.

Oh I agree with your point. Normal Ultras can be terrific. I don't how things are in Spain since I only seen Real playing friendly against Milan, 4-5 years back, but I preferred Italia stadium atmosphere than English. Ultras really get the atmosphere going, and make the place vibrant. I heard Old Trafford could be a quite dull place in day games - well no problem with Inter. I guess important thing is to distinguish those looking for fight from true ultras like you said.

Personally, I don't want Italian sacrifice their unique Stadium atmosphere, and big Night matches (unheard of in EPL) in their attempt to copy English counterpart. Issue is not copying other's system but designing one so that they keep Italian identity in an appropriate manner.

BTW, I find it quite ironic Steve McLaren said Italian needs to learn from English. No argument with respect fo saftey and marketing aspects, but if anything He is the symbol of what English need to learn from Italians. Utterly clueless coach with tactical nous of 10 year old. Lippi will school him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Ascension]

Have you given this a thought, if they suspend the entire season Inter won't win Lo Scudetto...

 

[V]

Oh I agree with your point. Normal Ultras can be terrific. I don't how things are in Spain since I only seen Real playing friendly against Milan, 4-5 years back, but I preferred Italia stadium atmosphere than English. Ultras really get the atmosphere going, and make the place vibrant. I heard Old Trafford could be a quite dull place in day games - well no problem with Inter. I guess important thing is to distinguish those looking for fight from true ultras like you said.

Personally, I don't want Italian sacrifice their unique Stadium atmosphere, and big Night matches (unheard of in EPL) in their attempt to copy English counterpart. Issue is not copying other's system but designing one so that they keep Italian identity in an appropriate manner.

BTW, I find it quite ironic Steve McLaren said Italian needs to learn from English. No argument with respect fo saftey and marketing aspects, but if anything He is the symbol of what English need to learn from Italians. Utterly clueless coach with tactical nous of 10 year old. Lippi will school him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Exactly, everywhere you go you can find hooligans but it's important to separate them from true fans.

Why is that in England anyway? Why don't they have evening matches, it's something that really puzzled me for a while, has it always been like that or ever since Margaret took matters into their own hand?

LOL on the last paragraph, nothing to add but , hell he could learn from our own Slaven Bilic who kicked his ass 2:0.

 

[Slagathor]

Jun-Hide: I'm afraid what you argue might not work at all in Italy. In England and Holland the hooligans don't associate with the club at all, they are loose gangs that only come to football matches to create havoc. They are the same organisations that cause riots at demonstrations of a political nature etc. These people are members of organised crime rather than derailed ultras.

In Italy the ultras form close organisations strongly linked to the club and other organised crime with one fundamental difference: these are fans. They feel they own the club and in a way they do, because the clubs tolerate their presence and influence. With their criminal activity on other fronts, they managed to unite football and crime and what you saw in Sicily the other day was nothing short of a street gang war.

In that sense I think it is quite simply impossible to separate the (as you referred to them) "real ultras" from the "hooligan ultras" because they are the same.

Tolerating them imo is the same as tolerating organised crime just because you enjoyed watching The Godfather.

They need to be jailed. Now.

 

[V]

Very good observation Erik, hooligans in my country are pretty much the same and have absolutelly no relations to the club's management, unlike "true" ultras that do.

I agree on jailing the bastards as well.

 

[Jun-hide]

Jun-Hide: I'm afraid what you argue might not work at all in Italy. In England and Holland the hooligans don't associate with the club at all, they are loose gangs that only come to football matches to create havoc. They are the same organisations that cause riots at demonstrations of a political nature etc. These people are members of organised crime rather than derailed ultras.

In Italy the ultras form close organisations strongly linked to the club and other organised crime with one fundamental difference: these are fans. They feel they own the club and in a way they do, because the clubs tolerate their presence and influence. With their criminal activity on other fronts, they managed to unite football and crime and what you saw in Sicily the other day was nothing short of a street gang war.

In that sense I think it is quite simply impossible to separate the (as you referred to them) "real ultras" from the "hooligan ultras" because they are the same.

Tolerating them imo is the same as tolerating organised crime just because you enjoyed watching The Godfather.

They need to be jailed. Now.

I guess as you have said it may not be possible given the close link with the club and the ultras. But I do want to give it a go for solution that keep their vibrancy and at the same time curb down violence.

The point I wanted to make and I am sure I am in agreement with you wholly on this issue is that individuals not clubs should be responsible for the actions. If fans cause havoc make sure fans are punished not the club. Some of the punishment handed out by both UEFA and La Liga Calcio for crowd disturbance have been bizzare, and need of reform IMHO. In that way, maybe Ultras will be thinking twice before doing something stupid since it is their lives at stake not teams profits. If they loose the passion for the team cause they can't be allowed to kick opposition supporters' head then they arent fans at all.

 

[Slagathor]

The philosophy on punishing clubs is based on the fact clubs are often unwilling to co-operate in hunting down and keeping out the hooligans. Especially in Italy where the clubs are very much aware of who is causing all this mess.

They know. They can't NOT know.

 

[Jun-hide]

The philosophy on punishing clubs is based on the fact clubs are often unwilling to co-operate in hunting down and keeping out the hooligans. Especially in Italy where the clubs are very much aware of who is causing all this mess.

They know. They can't NOT know.

Well, I guess its a question of whether the glass is half empty or half full. Personally, I see no reason as to why Italian Clubs would want to have Ultras in their stadium. The crowd disturbances are causing them as a serious loss of revenues from gate receipts. They are far more valuable than keeping close links with 1000 minority vioces since shareholders interest come first and foremost in any FC. In Inter`s case, the evidence against punishing the club was so strong. The actions of hooligans were specifically designed to hurt the club. So why should UEFA bulge into demand by doing exactly as these maniacs wished them to do so?

I`ll take side with Lotio on this issue. In Italia, it seems to me juristicion process have been slow to convict any of those found guilty of wrongdoings in Football Stadium, which means it is pointless to take the actions by yourself full knowing there will be backlashes soon after. The point of having security camera etc is pointless unless you know it will be used to punish act of violence. To set up these expensive equipments and not use them would defeat the initial purpose. And no sane club will install security guard for every 4 or 5 men, especially if the stadium is not owned by you in the first place.

IMO, the real reason why UEFA and La Liga Calcio have been punished clubs not individuals is the fact that they do not want to take responsibility of the issue. By punishing clubs they give rhetorical pretence that they are doing something "serious". At the same time, they do not want to take the burden of extra costs, and responsibility that comes with tackling the issue. That is not the reason for the crowd disturbance, but such narrow self interest is the reason why the issue hasnt been convincly solved yet.

Vlatko,

I think English games are played deliberately in the morning and afternoon, to minimalize the crowd violence that is more often caused during the night game.

 

[Falafel]

for how long will the italian championship games stop?(2 weeks/1 year)??