UK Politics (4 Viewers)

Nov 25, 2005
31,956
As a Scot I hope we never go independent, it would be an utter disaster. There is no mandate for another referendum. We were promised the last one 5 years ago was "once in a generation" and it was an overwhelming no.

As usual it is the minority who shout the loudest who get the attention , so what if there is a minor gathering in Edinburgh. Do they speak for the country?. The majority don't want independence. In the last election the majority of people (55%) again did not vote SNP. This is more than in the previous election (straight after the SNP's high of the last referendum) there is no reason for another divisive referendum. Let the Scottish politicians try and fix their failing economy, education and healthcare.

Also there is no guarantee Scotland would be accepted win the EU. Do we meet the conditions to join? Would Spain allow a separatist nation to join?
Why not tho? As a representative of a newly independent nation myself, it is so mind-blowing to me. Just doesn't compute. (Not judging btw).
 

Boksic

Senior Member
May 11, 2005
10,071
Why not tho? As a representative of a newly independent nation myself, it is so mind-blowing to me. Just doesn't compute. (Not judging btw).
No problem, I get that it is appealing for some countries. I also appreciate that to an outsider it seems exciting.

But there are so many reasons going against this and I won't go into them all but here are a few:

- We do not have our own currency. We would plan to still use the pound or Euro not our own, meaning we would lose one of the most crucial methods to control our economy. If we did decide to create our own currency, would you risk all you investments/home etc. for a brand new currency with a low rating?
- We borrow more funds from the UK government than we generate (more than any other UK country). We would not be self sufficient and in a deficit on day one (which we would need to repay) and would only increase. In the last referendum the figures provided by the SNP were barely manageable and highly reliant on an overly ambitious oil price which is nowhere near the current value. The economic argument does not stand up.
- We have the highest proportion of people in the UK working for the UK public sector. This links to the point above, we are in no way self sufficient and who is going to pay for these people?
- Outside of public sector we are reliant on oil. A highly volatile economic resource and one with a finite lifespan.
- Our biggest trade partner is the rest of the UK. Why make it more difficult to trade with them?
- What will be the expense to create and manage our own border with England? What will be the cost of setting up our own military and public sector banking function?
- The current ruling party in the Scottish government have proven to fail in education, economy, healthcare, infrastructure, drug issue prevention. I would not trust them with more powers.
- Despite the failing public services we are currently the highest taxed part of the UK (as decided by the current Scottish Government). I do not want to be taxed more to pay for the above.
- There is no guarantee we would be in the EU.
 
Nov 25, 2005
31,956
No problem, I get that it is appealing for some countries. I also appreciate that to an outsider it seems exciting.

But there are so many reasons going against this and I won't go into them all but here are a few:

- We do not have our own currency. We would plan to still use the pound or Euro not our own, meaning we would lose one of the most crucial methods to control our economy. If we did decide to create our own currency, would you risk all you investments/home etc. for a brand new currency with a low rating?
- We borrow more funds from the UK government than we generate (more than any other UK country). We would not be self sufficient and in a deficit on day one (which we would need to repay) and would only increase. In the last referendum the figures provided by the SNP were barely manageable and highly reliant on an overly ambitious oil price which is nowhere near the current value. The economic argument does not stand up.
- We have the highest proportion of people in the UK working for the UK public sector. This links to the point above, we are in no way self sufficient and who is going to pay for these people?
- Outside of public sector we are reliant on oil. A highly volatile economic resource and one with a finite lifespan.
- Our biggest trade partner is the rest of the UK. Why make it more difficult to trade with them?
- What will be the expense to create and manage our own border with England? What will be the cost of setting up our own military and public sector banking function?
- The current ruling party in the Scottish government have proven to fail in education, economy, healthcare, infrastructure, drug issue prevention. I would not trust them with more powers.
- Despite the failing public services we are currently the highest taxed part of the UK (as decided by the current Scottish Government). I do not want to be taxed more to pay for the above.
- There is no guarantee we would be in the EU.
Guess independence from a fellow democratic Union is way different than independence from imperialist Russia. Because you're not their satellite.

Thanks for the reply.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
14,890
corona effects

the same problem exists in germany as well, despite UNFORTUNATELY still being in EUSSR
dunno about romania, but hundreds of non-resident hungarians left the uk at the beginning of the year because their work permit wasn't prolonged. in my book that's a brexit effect, regardless of the coronavirus.
 

lgorTudor

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2015
27,753
dunno about romania, but hundreds of non-resident hungarians left the uk at the beginning of the year because their work permit wasn't prolonged. in my book that's a brexit effect, regardless of the coronavirus.
might be overlapping effects since here seasonal workers from eastern europe weren't allowed in due to travel restrictions
 

JuveJay

Very Stable Genius
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
64,006
It's well known that the majority of the crop labour in the UK is Eastern European. It became that way purely because they will live in cheap and crammed accommodation that English people will not live in, on minimum wage, so the farmers not only get labour but they get extra money from tenants living in a caravan or outhouse on their land. I know a guy who has a family of Romanians living in a converted shed, because it backs onto fields.

There have been plenty of out of work people going to help in the fields but the shortfall is still there.

Coronavirus is the clear issue right now, but Brexit will eventually have an effect.

There was a case a few weeks ago where a farmer flew in 30 people into the country on a private plane so they could work his land, he couldn't get English people to do the work for the money involved.

Cheap labour is an issue across the world, it's no different with Mexicans in the US, or a lot worse in Middle East and Asian countries.
 

DAiDEViL

Filhote de Goebbels
Feb 21, 2015
47,762
It's well known that the majority of the crop labour in the UK is Eastern European. It became that way purely because they will live in cheap and crammed accommodation that English people will not live in, on minimum wage, so the farmers not only get labour but they get extra money from tenants living in a caravan or outhouse on their land. I know a guy who has a family of Romanians living in a converted shed, because it backs onto fields.

There have been plenty of out of work people going to help in the fields but the shortfall is still there.

Coronavirus is the clear issue right now, but Brexit will eventually have an effect.

There was a case a few weeks ago where a farmer flew in 30 people into the country on a private plane so they could work his land, he couldn't get English people to do the work for the money involved.

Cheap labour is an issue across the world, it's no different with Mexicans in the US, or a lot worse in Middle East and Asian countries.
This is like Germany flying in cheap workers to go dig out asparagus for them. Or in the meat industrie, where everything has to be cheap as fuck. Those east european workers are living jammed together just like the pigs they are supposed to chop.
 

JuveJay

Very Stable Genius
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
64,006
I'm not sure what the BLM movement hopes to gain from removing every monument or statue involving someone who once upon a time did or said something racist. Times were different. Doesn't make it acceptable to a 21st century spectator but that was the world they lived in, it wasn't 2020 it was 1720 or 1920. The thing about history is that you read it and understand it and learn from it. Creating a "blackwash" of history and pretending those things were not part of history because they hurt your feelings is not the way forward, no one learns anything from that. It's just another form of ignorance to pretend that minorities were not persecuted. Look at world or human history to see this tale repeated again and again.

Many of these in question were great Britons who doubtless saved the country from huge military defeats and probable invasion/occupation (Churchill, Nelson, Drake, for example) which would have made the country very different to the one they currently live in. They are immortalised because of those achievements and what they did for the country and the empire. I can understand why that upsets a minority of people but this is the United Kingdom, this is our history. Denying it only ensures that it happens again.

And I think that generally behind a lot of great people there is a trail of shit and people left in their wake that we may not like, but you often couldn't be a nice person and get things done then, which perhaps is still true even today.
 
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JuveJay

Very Stable Genius
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
64,006
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53526636

So basically three pikey cunts stole a quad bike (this is a day's work for them), police officers followed up the report and found them. When he got out of the car he stepped into the loop of a tow rope on the back of their car, they sped off and dragged him for more than a mile "swung from side to side like a pendulum" at speeds of up to 60mph down country roads before he became detached. Obviously the police officer died from horrible injuries.

The pikey driving the car was told by both passengers to stop but he told them to "shut up". Somehow the driver was acquitted of murder, with all three only facing manslaughter charges. A sentence of voluntary manslaughter in the UK carries up to 10 years, with the chance of being out in 5-7 years. They could do less than that, especially the passengers, of which one I think was 17 at the time.

Aside from the ACME-level circumstances around his death (how unlucky can you be?), once again the British justice system is an absolute farce.

The cunts were laughing and joking through the court proceedings and outside when the media took photos of them, just adding insult to injury for the family of the copper. He had just been married 4 weeks prior to his childhood sweetheart.

Unfortunately they will probably be protected inside by other pikeys, and often people who harm police officers get respect in prison.
 

Boksic

Senior Member
May 11, 2005
10,071
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53526636

So basically three pikey cunts stole a quad bike (this is a day's work for them), police officers followed up the report and found them. When he got out of the car he stepped into the loop of a tow rope on the back of their car, they sped off and dragged him for more than a mile "swung from side to side like a pendulum" at speeds of up to 60mph down country roads before he became detached. Obviously the police officer died from horrible injuries.

The pikey driving the car was told by both passengers to stop but he told them to "shut up". Somehow the driver was acquitted of murder, with all three only facing manslaughter charges. A sentence of voluntary manslaughter in the UK carries up to 10 years, with the chance of being out in 5-7 years. They could do less than that, especially the passengers, of which one I think was 17 at the time.

Aside from the ACME-level circumstances around his death (how unlucky can you be?), once again the British justice system is an absolute farce.

The cunts were laughing and joking through the court proceedings and outside when the media took photos of them, just adding insult to injury for the family of the copper. He had just been married 4 weeks prior to his childhood sweetheart.

Unfortunately they will probably be protected inside by other pikeys, and often people who harm police officers get respect in prison.
:agree:

Absolute farce, another in a long list of ridiculous sentences.
 

JuveJay

Very Stable Genius
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
64,006
What’s your take on Boris managing the pandemic so far?

as an outsider it seems confusing. You were all advised to eat outdoors and go back to the office just a few months ago :snoop:
They aren't making any long-term decisions, it's more month-by-month. I'm not sure what the best way of doing things is. I think they are trying to mitigate things like future mental and physical health problems.

People will still be going into work, I can't see there being many changes to the current working from home: working from workplace ratio.

The pub/restaurant industry will take another kicking but then you will have this lockdown for a month and then people will flock back for December and the holiday period, the rate will go up again.

I said all along that we would have continuous and slightly less strict lockdowns every 6 or so months. There is no easy option that works for everyone but over time the levels of immunity or serious illness should evolve. I don't see 2021 being a normal year at all, either.
 

Gian

COME HOME MOGGI
Apr 12, 2009
16,978
They aren't making any long-term decisions, it's more month-by-month. I'm not sure what the best way of doing things is. I think they are trying to mitigate things like future mental and physical health problems.

People will still be going into work, I can't see there being many changes to the current working from home: working from workplace ratio.

The pub/restaurant industry will take another kicking but then you will have this lockdown for a month and then people will flock back for December and the holiday period, the rate will go up again.

I said all along that we would have continuous and slightly less strict lockdowns every 6 or so months. There is no easy option that works for everyone but over time the levels of immunity or serious illness should evolve. I don't see 2021 being a normal year at all, either.
Which makes Boris'/UK's Covid policy the hardest to follow. Whenever guidelines and the signals from your government change once in a few weeks, it's hard to really adjust your behaviour to the infection risks. Boris went from 'eat out to help out' to closing the hospitality industry in just a few months. From negotiating with mayors from the North a few weeks and a policy of regional matters to another UK-wide lockdown.

Just seems like it's another hail mary call every now and then but no real strategy (or sticking with it)
 
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Boksic

Senior Member
May 11, 2005
10,071
Which makes Boris'/UK's Covid policy the hardest to follow. Whenever guidelines and the signals from your government change once in a few weeks, it's hard to really adjust your behaviour to the infection risks. Boris went from 'eat out to help out' to closing the hospitality industry in just a few months. From negotiating with mayors from the North a few weeks and a policy of regional matters to another UK-wide lockdown.

Just seems like it's another hail mary call every now and then but no real strategy (or sticking with it)
I think they are keen to get the economy back up and running but adapting based on the cases. They are rising fast and they took the decision to edge towards strict restrictions, which I think is the right thing to do.

The hardest thing to follow for me is the different rules in Scotland, England and Wales. England brought in their 3 tier system and Scotland bring out a 5 tier a few days later just to be different.

In Scotland we have very different rules for very small areas that are next to one another e.g. in greater Glasgow people move frequently between each area and they all have different rules. Plus we get told not to do something but when pushed the politicians effectively say well you can do it if you want but we ask you not to.

For me the key reason for the issues is that rules are only as effective as the people who choose to follow them. Not enough people do and there are not sufficient punishments for not doing so. A £60 fine (which is rarely imposed) is hardly going to stop people.
 
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