Troy (5 Viewers)

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++


somewhere in the movie, when Achilles was talking to Odysseus or Patroclus (I can't remember) about not participating in the fight.. he said something about all these soldiers have to die to satisfie one man's well.. and he has nothing against the trojans, why should he fight other's war..!!

beside the story line in the movie also made it go on that direction, or at least that what I thought..

anyway, this movie was about anything but, Homer's the illiad..

btw, I thought Patroclus was Achilles' friend, not his cousin..?? also, Achilles was not among those who were hidden inside the trojan horse, right? he was killed before Odysseus built it..??!!

yes ... I'm pretty sure you're right. They changed the way the story turned out.

The younger brother (i'm terrible with names) really died at the end. in fact, all of them died. there was no secret passage. Also, the real war lasted 10 years. when the war started Achilles was a child. he joined later.

Achilles also died riding a carriage-whutcha-ma-call-it, not in that room. The girl who liked Achilles wasn't a cousin of the royal family either.


Anyhow.. i knew it wasn't gonna be perfect...they mess up so many stories.. It was good watching anyways... you just have to ignore the history or non-fiction story books you've read when you watch the movie.

 

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[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++

btw, I thought Patroclus was Achilles' friend, not his cousin..??

He was achilles lover not his friend... though i doubt it, it is quite possible he was also his cousin

 

[Gandalf]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++

Also, the real war lasted 10 years. when the war started Achilles was a child. he joined later.

yeah, it took Agamemnon 2 years to prepare his army.. and the seige lasted for more than nine years.. but, they made it look like a week or so.. pathetic..

I'm glad they didn't give a hint for a sequel.. I don't these guys to make a movie about "the Odyssey".. but Sean Bean is good to play the role of Odessious though..

 

[KB824]

Lets not forget that Agamenon had to sacrifice his daughter to Artemis in order for the winds to blow so that his fleet could sail to Troy.

Also, Achilles in the Illiad, unlike the movie, knew full well that Patroclus was going to lead his army disguised as Achilles.







Oh this is fun. I haven't discussed Greek Mythology since my college days

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++

btw, I thought Patroclus was Achilles' friend, not his cousin..?? also, Achilles was not among those who were hidden inside the trojan horse, right? he was killed before Odysseus built it..??!!

There isn't anything in the IIiad that says that Petroclaus is Achilles' cousin, but other stories from Greek Mythology do state that, some even saying that they were infact twin brothers

And your right, Achilles didn't live to see the "Trojan Horse":frown:


You have to remember that the Iliad is believe to be only book four of Homers five books on the Trojan War (the rest being lost to us), and a lot happens before, and after, which aren't included within it

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


He was achilles lover not his friend...

I doubt this Shadowfax.

I know why you believe this to be true Shadowfax, I read this too, but I think that somewhere in history Achilles got mixed up with Alexander the Great and his close friend who was his also male lover, and the story wasn't corrected.

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Achilles also died riding a carriage-whutcha-ma-call-it, not in that room. The girl who liked Achilles wasn't a cousin of the royal family either.


Anyhow.. i knew it wasn't gonna be perfect...they mess up so many stories.. It was good watching anyways... you just have to ignore the history or non-fiction story books you've read when you watch the movie.

I haven't seen the film, but it sounds like they went for the tradition that Achilles died as a result of a plot . I don't want to waste it for those who haven't seen it, but does Achilles die as a result of his lust for Polyxena, in a temple. 'cause if it is, this is a recognised and accepted possible death scenario in Greek Mythology

 

[KB824]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++


I doubt this Shadowfax.

I know why you believe this to be true Shadowfax, I read this too, but I think that somewhere in history Achilles got mixed up with Alexander the Great and his close friend who was his also male lover, and the story wasn't corrected.

Oh don't worry. they're coming out with Alexander the Great sometime next year to totally distort that history as well.

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Andre 3000 ] ++


Oh don't worry. they're coming out with Alexander the Great sometime next year to totally distort that history as well.

I know what you mean..there is no way that they can possibly cover even a fraction of this guys story in two-three hours, so it's doomed to be cut and shuffled.


Still, I' look forward to it more so that Troy

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


The younger brother (i'm terrible with names) really died at the end. in fact, all of them died. there was no secret passage. Also, the real war lasted 10 years. when the war started Achilles was a child. he joined later.
.

Don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember that Achilles was 15 when the boats set of, and he was hiding as a girl in a temple so that he wouldn't be sent to War (hidden by his mother, not by himself). Odysseus plays a trick on him by laying a sword and shield on the ground next to the girls, and pretends the temple is under attack. Achilles picks up the weapons, and is found out.

The prophets tell, I think, Agammemnon, that Achilles must go to Troy, or else they cannot win. But they have also told his mother that if he does goes he will die, and that's why his mum has hid him

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++



I haven't seen the film, but it sounds like they went for the tradition that Achilles died as a result of a plot . I don't want to waste it for those who haven't seen it, but does Achilles die as a result of his lust for Polyxena, in a temple. 'cause if it is, this is a recognised and accepted possible death scenario in Greek Mythology

yes, it was in a temple when he found polyxena.. i didn't know this was accepted!

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


yes, it was in a temple when he found polyxena.. i didn't know this was accepted!

If it's the one I remember, Polyxena's brother Trojanius, or Trolsius or something like that, is killed by Achilles, and she seeks revenge.
However, Achilles is smitten by her. So Priam sets up a meeting with Achilles and offers him Polyxena if Achilles will ask Agammemnon to end the war. But it's really a trap.
I wont tell what happens after this but the written story is quite exciting and involves Ajax, Diomedes and Odysseus


In this ending many of the common soldiers see Achilles as a traitor, as he rejects his duty and oaths for the love of a woman


Yeah Andre, the Greek Myths are great fun

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++


I doubt this Shadowfax.

I know why you believe this to be true Shadowfax, I read this too, but I think that somewhere in history Achilles got mixed up with Alexander the Great and his close friend who was his also male lover, and the story wasn't corrected.

Well i would hope you would have read it too rover as its the most consistent thing in all the writings i have read regarding achilles... its the one thing agreed upon virtually everywhere you look.

Achilles sexuality and his dislike for women is widely documented... it is also a very common thing in readings of this period.

being mixed up with alexander.... please

Alexander was different, he would shag absolutely anything, men, women
some literature even suggesting animals

Its jus purely a case of the homophobic world we live in why achilles isnt shown in this kight in the films or the educational works on the subject

 

[Gandalf]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++

I haven't seen the film, but it sounds like they went for the tradition that Achilles died as a result of a plot . I don't want to waste it for those who haven't seen it, but does Achilles die as a result of his lust for Polyxena, in a temple. 'cause if it is, this is a recognised and accepted possible death scenario in Greek Mythology

++ [ originally posted by Majed]
yes, it was in a temple when he found polyxena.. i didn't know this was accepted!

in the movie, he didn't die as a result of a plot.. there was no plots, no gods, nothing.. they even killed Ajax before Achilles.. I wonder who will compete with Odysseus for the prize of the "Bravest of the Greeks"..

 

[Gandalf]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++

Achilles sexuality and his dislike for women is widely documented... it is also a very common thing in readings of this period.

well, he fell in love with Penthesilia.. and I read somewhere that he got married.. I can't remember his wife's name..

 

[sallyinzaghi]

achilles is gay?

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


Well i would hope you would have read it too rover as its the most consistent thing in all the writings i have read regarding achilles... its the one thing agreed upon virtually everywhere you look.

Achilles sexuality and his dislike for women is widely documented... it is also a very common thing in readings of this period.

being mixed up with alexander.... please

Alexander was different, he would shag absolutely anything, men, women
some literature even suggesting animals

Its jus purely a case of the homophobic world we live in why achilles isnt shown in this kight in the films or the educational works on the subject

Your right that I have read from many sources that Achilles and Petroclus were gay lovers, but these have all been modern day commentaries on the Iliad or the Greek Myths in general...nothing actually within the Iliad or contempary from that era states this.


Don't get me wrong, there are stories that Achilles is bi-sexual...he is stated to have fallen in love with a captured prisoner and killed him during love making by strangullation in a bear hug position, but nothing about him and Petroclus.


Being bi-sexual was no big deal in those days as you say. At symposia, older men initiated younger boys into there company by taking them to bed. This was normal.
At one time the Spartans took homosexual lovers as their battle partners in the belief that they would fight better together in war because they would fight more feircly for a lover than a friend.

As for his dislike for women...well, all I can say on that one is that he did have a son who later fought at the battle of Troy, so maybe he did dislike women, but didn't mind using their bodies

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++


Your right that I have read from many sources that Achilles and Petroclus were gay lovers, but these have all been modern day commentaries on the Iliad or the Greek Myths in general...nothing actually within the Iliad or contempary from that era states this.

I disagree many of the old passages convey this... Plato for example
The original writings of homer in the original language also say the same.

Sorry rover but i will go with my university lecturer (a recognised expert in the subject) over you every time and of course nigh on every peice we read for study

Don't get me wrong, there are stories that Achilles is bi-sexual...he is stated to have fallen in love with a captured prisoner and killed him during love making by strangullation in a bear hug position, but nothing about him and Petroclus.

Again i disagree

Being bi-sexual was no big deal in those days as you say. At symposia, older men initiated younger boys into there company by taking them to bed. This was normal.
At one time the Spartans took homosexual lovers as their battle partners in the belief that they would fight better together in war because they would fight more feircly for a lover than a friend.

Of course though many modern works (especially those for teaching of children) do not like to admit it... It was a very common and completely accepted way

As for his dislike for women...well, all I can say on that one is that he did have a son who later fought at the battle of Troy, so maybe he did dislike women, but didn't mind using their bodies

Why does that confuse you... Its perfectly normal for someone to use a womans body to bear him an heir

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++

I disagree many of the old passages convey this... Plato for example
The original writings of homer in the original language also say the same.

No problem man, always willing to learn...point me in the right direction and I'll re-read Plato and the other old passages, if necessary in the original language...I have the full works here at home for reference

Sorry rover but i will go with my university lecturer (a recognised expert in the subject) over you every time and of course nigh on every peice we read for study.

I also studied the classics at Uni, all be it twenty years or so ago.
I'll take my people over yours

Would you like me to supply my reference for the bear hug claim?

Why does that confuse you... Its perfectly normal for someone to use a womans body to bear him an heir

I'm not confused by the use of a woman for pleasure or for child production...I'm confused that a woman hater is rumoured to have married at least twice out of love?

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++


they even killed Ajax before Achilles.. I wonder who will compete with Odysseus for the prize of the "Bravest of the Greeks"..

Jeez...this sounds like a real stinker for the purists...which Ajax was it though?