Troy (15 Viewers)

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++
from Sejarah Melayu

or

the Qur'an

hes in both iirc and beleived to be alexander the great



yes sally alexander was gay or more accurately bi-sexual

Cool quote Shadow

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++


No problem man, always willing to learn...point me in the right direction and I'll re-read Plato and the other old passages,

sorry didnt notice this

look at platos Symposium to start with

also Aeschylus's trilogy

something a bit lighter.... Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida


Have to have a look through my books for others... its been a long time since ive really gone through this stuff

 

[Roverbhoy]

Thanks...got them all here

Symposium...is that the charcter of Socrates part

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
I've just found that quote about the bear hug.

Hehe..check this out:-

From Robert Graves "The Greek Myths"...Nine Years of War:


"Now the city was not fated to fall if Troilus could attain the age of twenty. Some say that Achiiles fell in love with him as they fought together, and 'I will kill you', he said, 'unless you yield to my caressess!'

Troilus fled and took shelter in the temple of Thymbrean Apollo; but Achilles cared nothing for the god's wrath and since Troilus remained coy.......he lured him out by offering a gift of doves, and that Troilus died with crushed ribs and livid face, in such bear-like fashion did Achilles make love"


He should have listened to the moto to beware Greeks "bear"ing gifts

sorry:dontcare::dontcare:

a few other bits and peices.... quick descriptions of achilles relationships that are covered in many works


ACHILLES AND THE MYRMIDONS

Achilles, along with other Greek kings, heroes, and princes sails to the war against Troy (which is located in what is now Turkey) at the head of his own personal war host, a sort of personal army. But the Myrmidons were an army with a difference as many legends make clear. They were an army of lovers.

The ancient Greeks believed that a man would rather die than dishonor himself in front of his lover and so it was that men in such units were inspired to legendary feats of heroism. This primordial legend was reflected in historical fact time and again throughout Greek history. The last great troop of warrior lovers was The Sacred Band of Thebes which Alexander The Great finally defeated in the 4th century BCE. Alexander, who himself had a warrior lover — Hephaestion — was so moved by their bravery (they died to a man) that he raised a great monument to their glory after his victory.



ACHILLES AND PATROCLUS

Now it happens that Achilles, in The Iliad, has a young and noble companion in arms — Patroclus — with whom he tents, bivouacs, eats, sleeps, hunts, bathes, and makes love to quite incessantly.

At the siege of Troy — because of Agamemnon’s insult — while others are doing all the fighting, including his own Myrmidons, Achilles choose to stay in his tent making love to Patroclus day in and day out. His Myrmidons, as well as the Greek kings and generals, are often outside his tent entreating him to join the fray. The siege has been stalemated for months and he is, after all, their greatest warrior.

At last, succumbing in part to their pleas and those of Patroclus himself, he agrees to let Patroclus go into battle but insists that he wear his (Achilles’) armor. Because of his anger with Agamemnon he will still not join them. It is inconceivable to him that Patroclus might be killed. But after great heroism and victories Patroclus is killed by the Trojan hero, Hector.
What follows is the story of the towering rage and bottomless grief of Achilles as he throws himself on the body of his dead lover and of the terrible vengeance he wreaks.

Like a demon he pursues and kills Hector and for days, like a madman, tears streaming down his face, bellowing like a wounded bull, he drags the body of Hector behind his chariot, around and around and around the walls of Troy. The Trojans on the wall and his own Greeks in their siege camps stare aghast at this apocalyptic agony. Even the gods are shocked. In spite of the abject pleading of the Trojans he refuses to give them the body for burial; the worst thing possible among the ancient Greek peoples.

Achilles, normally equable and just, simply goes mad with grief, doing terrible things such as burning twelve prisoners, noble Trojan youths, on Patroclus’s funeral pyre.

With Achilles now fully engaged in the war the tide is turned against the Trojans and the city’s doom is sealed even though Achilles is to die before it’s over. (It had been prophesied.)



ACHILLES AND TROILUS

Sometime after the deaths of Patroclus and Hector (the war still dragged on for years) Achilles was in hand to hand combat with a handsome Trojan warrior named Troilus. As the grappling continued Achilles became filled with lust for his Trojan adversary saying, “I will kill you unless you yield to my caresses!” Troilus, wrestling in sweaty struggle with Achilles and knowing he could not beat him agreed to a secret rendezvous. Achilles then let him seem to escape and later, in the dark of night, met him in the precinct of the Temple of Thrymbaean Apollo which was neutral territory during the war.

Achilles fell upon him passionately but his sexual embraces were so fierce that Troilus, carnally impaled, was crushed to death in his mighty arms. The Trojans mourned his death at the hands of Achilles and Achilles himself was filled with regret.



ACHILLES AND ANTILOCHUS

Still later in the story Achilles takes another lover, a young Greek soldier named Antilochus. It seems that Homer is unable to imagine the chief hero of his epic poem without a male lover.
Achilles is eventually killed by treachery. Off his guard in the neutral temple of Apollo, he is ambushed by Paris who shoots him with a poisoned arrow in his heel; his only vulnerable part. Soon thereafter Antilochus dies in battle.

The Greeks finally get inside the walls of Troy in the belly of a huge wooden horse and overcome the city’s last defenders.

At last the ashes of Achilles, Patroclus and Antilochus are mixed in a single bronze urn and placed in their tomb with great lamentation; a sort of ménage a trios in the afterlife.

Along with the tragedy of the destruction of a great city, The Iliad finally represents the greatest kind of hymn to same-sex love. At Patroclus’s death, Achilles’ countless, heartbreaking lamentations — “O never could anything more bitter come upon me! No! Not even if I should hear of my own father’s death!”, and so on — are too numerous to recount.

“This was the language of love, not of friendship, and it was thus that the ancients always regarded their bond.” (Hans Licht, Sexual Life in Ancient Greece.)

Oddly, in spite of all the death and destruction, the beautiful Helen is brought back home and is forgiven by King Menelaus. The whole thing, he decided, was not her fault. (Aphrodite made her do it!)

 

[Roverbhoy]

Yup, I've seen many passages like this before from modern day contempory authors...not what I was really looking for...but here goes...

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


ACHILLES AND THE MYRMIDONS

But the Myrmidons were an army with a difference as many legends make clear. They were an army of lovers.

The ancient Greeks believed that a man would rather die than dishonor himself in front of his lover and so it was that men in such units were inspired to legendary feats of heroism. This primordial legend was reflected in historical fact time and again throughout Greek history.

Sounds like the Spartan's as mentioned previously...but the Ant men as lovers? This is new to me I wonder where Licht gets this from? What Legends?

ACHILLES AND PATROCLUS

Now it happens that Achilles, in The Iliad, has a young and noble companion in arms — Patroclus — with whom he tents, bivouacs, eats, sleeps, hunts, bathes, and makes love to quite incessantly.

I've seen this before...but what is the source for the story? ...makes love incessantly...says who? Again where does Licht get this from?

ACHILLES AND TROILUS

Sometime after the deaths of Patroclus and Hector (the war still dragged on for years) Achilles was in hand to hand combat with a handsome Trojan warrior named Troilus. As the grappling continued Achilles became filled with lust for his Trojan adversary saying, “I will kill you unless you yield to my caresses!” Troilus, wrestling in sweaty struggle with Achilles and knowing he could not beat him agreed to a secret rendezvous. Achilles then let him seem to escape and later, in the dark of night, met him in the precinct of the Temple of Thrymbaean Apollo which was neutral territory during the war.

Achilles fell upon him passionately but his sexual embraces were so fierce that Troilus, carnally impaled, was crushed to death in his mighty arms. The Trojans mourned his death at the hands of Achilles and Achilles himself was filled with regret.

Oh that had to hurt in the morning son...


but were is this from...were in the Iliad or other works of Homer? Sounds like the same source as Greaves used...if it is, then it's not from the same era as the Iliad ...might be wrong here but...?

ACHILLES AND ANTILOCHUS

Still later in the story Achilles takes another lover, a young Greek soldier named Antilochus. It seems that Homer is unable to imagine the chief hero of his epic poem without a male lover.

Whit, a lover? Says who, when, how? Homer can't imagine Achilles without a male lover? So why not say he had a male lover...and again what part of homers work does this come from...the Iliad finishes with the death of Hector...the Odyssey perhaps?

Achilles is eventually killed by treachery. Off his guard in the neutral temple of Apollo, he is ambushed by Paris who shoots him with a poisoned arrow in his heel; his only vulnerable part. Soon thereafter Antilochus dies in battle.

Agreed, but again not from contempory times...reported later as per Greaves (When I say contempory I mean within say two hundred years of the Trojan War)

Along with the tragedy of the destruction of a great city, The Iliad finally represents the greatest kind of hymn to same-sex love.

In the authors mind perhaps...but I want the hard facts for this aspertion

At Patroclus’s death, Achilles’ countless, heartbreaking lamentations — “O never could anything more bitter come upon me! No! Not even if I should hear of my own father’s death!”, and so on — are too numerous to recount.

“This was the language of love, not of friendship, and it was thus that the ancients always regarded their bond.” (Hans Licht, Sexual Life in Ancient Greece.)

The language of love? Subjective opinion...I read it as a heartbroken man facing the loss of his best friend... how can this be read to mean, without a shadow (excuse me) of doubt, a homosexual relationship? ...


Hans Licht...wasn't he a german prof from the thirtys and forty's? I'm not looking for modern day commentators studies of on the works of Homer?


This is well researched Shadowfax...but what I'm looking for are the reasons this author comes to these conclusions...who said what and when

I'm enjoying this debate...what do you think will be the next big historical mega-movie...I want to get swatting up early


I'll read the books you've mentioned. I've got Ted Hughes version of The Oresteia in my hands just now...which part would you like me to look in?


See ya guy.....

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++

but what I'm looking for are the reasons this author comes to these conclusions...who said what and when

That wasnt really aimed at you rover.. more jus to show some of the things written about achilles.
As i said i havent read this stuff in a while, but most of the theories/interpretations written above i have also read in recognised works.
I'll get back to you with some more books when i get a chance to have a look.

I'm enjoying this debate...what do you think will be the next big historical mega-movie...I want to get swatting up early

The 3 upcoming versions of alexander... king arthur... the one im waiting for is scotts 'Kingdom of Heaven' and of course tripoli


sorry for the cut down reply... but i need some sleep... later

 

[gray]

Thanks for the info Paul, that was v. interesting

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++
from Sejarah Melayu

or

the Qur'an

hes in both iirc and beleived to be alexander the great



yes sally alexander was gay or more accurately bi-sexual

you have read both Sejarah Melayu and Al-Quran?

 

[delpiero10]

I most say that Troy is a very good movie, Brad Pitt was maybe a little to much "macho" but overall a great movie in alsmot the same quality class as Gladiator.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Paul reads everything Hafiz

But Paul, yes it is in our malay history, in my history textbook in fact that he IS alexander the great (Iskandar Dzulkarnain); and in the Koran if I'm not mistaken, Sura Al Kahfi God only referred to him Iskandar Dzulkarnain... I'm a bit confused, perhaps the theory that Iskandar was Alexander the Great was created by those who interprets the Quran.. anyways I have to check back on you with that, I go for Quran Interpretation classes and I'll ask my ustadz

but in the Quran god did mention that Iskandar was one of the world's best rulers and conquerer, so; I don't know. Gosh I'm confused. but even if Iskandar IS alexander, that can't be possible, Iskandar is known as a devout Muslim and Muslims can't be gay.

Alright, conclusion, I'll go ask my ustadz. I hope he has something to say on this matter.

 

[Gandalf]

@Saliha.. Al Eskandar Al Akbar was not mentioned "Literally" in the Quran.. you mentioned "Surat Al Kahf".. in surat al Kahf, "Thu'l Qarnain" was mentioned, some say that he is the same "Alexander the Great".. some say he isn't.. I need to search for this one.. I'll get back to you..

@Shadowfax.. there were a lot of writings about the Illiad.. some back up their opinions with some of Homer's own words.. But, this german Prof..!! I never heard of him.. nor I read or felt these "bi-sexual" stuff in Homer's work or other writings that wrote about the Illiad..

@Roverbhoy.. so.. did you see the movie or not..? just interested on your reaction about it..

 

[Roverbhoy]

Hello again everyone...how are you doing?

Read Platos Symposium and Aeschylus's trilogy

Gave Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida a miss...

Couldn't see much in the trilogy about Achilles and Patroclus...still a good read though

The symposium...now...I can see were your coming from with this!

Have to admit I couldn't recollect the mention of Achilles here, as we read it with respect to the beginings of Platos Platonic love, the two types of love and the depths that lovers would go to to protect each other and show there emotions, blah, blah, blah... but, yes, there it was.

However, it's still just a mention that they were lovers, not how they arrive at this. The Trojan War took place circa 1180BC or so...Plato lived circa 430-350BC...seven hundred years or so later say...similar to us and Robin Hood, give or take a century...

What I'm trying to say is that in my view, and it may be completely cr*p, that since 'boy love' was popular/ fashionable, around the time of Greece's greatest achievements and writers, they justified some difficult realities in their own society, by implying that their greatest heros also participated...Heracles and Iolus also had the tag of lovers too!

As for Alexander, (whose tutor was Aristotle, a student of Plato for those who aren't up on geek, sorry Greek history, just to give you an idea of the timeline) was born in the fourth century BC, centuries before Christianity and Islam...so I don't see how he could have been a muslim...although he was a smart politician and embraced and honoured the religions of those peoples he conquered...still...Islam isn't known all that well to me so I'm only passing comment.


And I haven't seen the movies yet...I can't seem to get time with all this reading hehe:dontcare:

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Roverbhoy, Christianity and Islam is very much similar; but Islam wasn't only from Muhammad; it goes way back till Adam's time. Adam was one of our (muslims) prophets too, so there is possibility as such.

Like I said, in the Koran, they only mentioned him as Zulkarnain. He was also mentioned as a great ruler who ruled from east to west; and perhaps the interpreters of the Koran thought he's similar to Alexander the Great; but I will check on my Quran interpretation books to see what they say.

anyway, I went to a bookstore just now to look stuff on the Iliad; but there are books who have been edited - I bought "les miserables" and obviously it was meant for easier reading, however if I buy these "more simple" Iliad books would the value of the content be less than the original one?

 

[gray]

Of course it would salihah

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
Roverbhoy, Christianity and Islam is very much similar; but Islam wasn't only from Muhammad; it goes way back till Adam's time. Adam was one of our (muslims) prophets too, so there is possibility as such.

Wow! That's very interesting. I never knew that.

Tell me, if Adam was one of the prophets, are there any prophets who pre-date him? Also, was Islam practiced in Europe at the time of Alexander? All the info I've read indicate that he was an avid believer in the Greek Gods, but when he defeated a people who had different beliefs, he would present himself as a believer in their Faith as a political manouver to win over their devotion. If Islam was praticed in Persia, Afghanistan, Northern Africa, etc, then it may be possible that he held himself out as a believer (or converted). Quite clever.

...anyway, I went to a bookstore just now to look stuff on the Iliad; but there are books who have been edited - I bought "les miserables" and obviously it was meant for easier reading, however if I buy these "more simple" Iliad books would the value of the content be less than the original one?

Depends on what you want from the book I guess...to enjoy the style of writting, or simply enjoy a good story, either way it would be worth reading.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Tell me, if Adam was one of the prophets, are there any prophets who pre-date him?

Kind of hard to live before Adam, don't you think?

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I suck in history. I live in a sucky country. I blame that. Ha. ha.

Ok now back to the adam issue - I didn't really understand your query to be honest. In Islam, Adam was our first prophet and Muhammad was the last. We had 25 prophets; but there were periods between 2 prophets where the word of Islam was forgotten I think, which resulted in the coming of another prophet to preach again.

I dunno, go ask Majed. He knows better

Roverbhoy, I have a few history books regarding Alexander, and I'll get back to you on him. Right now, I'm reading some Romanista's comments on Capello leaving them. Enjoying it way too much

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
Paul reads everything Hafiz

Make me feel kinda small... i never seen a copy of Sejarah Melayu and although i already khatam Al-Quran , i never finished reading the translations.... :undecide:

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Hello again everyone...how are you doing?

Read Platos Symposium and Aeschylus's trilogy

Gave Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida a miss...

Couldn't see much in the trilogy about Achilles and Patroclus...still a good read though

The symposium...now...I can see were your coming from with this!

Have to admit I couldn't recollect the mention of Achilles here, as we read it with respect to the beginings of Platos Platonic love, the two types of love and the depths that lovers would go to to protect each other and show there emotions, blah, blah, blah... but, yes, there it was.

However, it's still just a mention that they were lovers, not how they arrive at this. The Trojan War took place circa 1180BC or so...Plato lived circa 430-350BC...seven hundred years or so later say...similar to us and Robin Hood, give or take a century...

What I'm trying to say is that in my view, and it may be completely cr*p, that since 'boy love' was popular/ fashionable, around the time of Greece's greatest achievements and writers, they justified some difficult realities in their own society, by implying that their greatest heros also participated...Heracles and Iolus also had the tag of lovers too!

As for Alexander, (whose tutor was Aristotle, a student of Plato for those who aren't up on geek, sorry Greek history, just to give you an idea of the timeline) was born in the fourth century BC, centuries before Christianity and Islam...so I don't see how he could have been a muslim...although he was a smart politician and embraced and honoured the religions of those peoples he conquered...still...Islam isn't known all that well to me so I'm only passing comment.


And I haven't seen the movies yet...I can't seem to get time with all this reading hehe:dontcare:

now that you see it from that perspective., i can see some logic in it.... as Sally said Islam have many prophets from different period of time... thousands of them actually , but 25 of them were the most famous and their stories were told in Al-Quran..you know..Adam, David, Noah, Moses, Jesus to name a few and Muhammad being the last of them..... from my understanding, the level of teachings for each prophet is different.... only one thing is similar that is all of them only succumb to one God...( thats include Jesus, as in our belive, he is not the son of god , but thats beside the point )..

anyway .. my point is... during those early times the islamic code maybe not as clear as the time of Muhammad... so basically you only need to succumb to one God, Allah, and there you are a muslim... so its doesnt cover much the lifestyle.... meaning muslim at those time maybe do not has as many code to follow as today....

my second theory is.. well.. he is done a lot of thing in his life including being a bi-sexual.. untill he met Islam and he left them...

...there is a prophet call Luth in arabic , who been sent to a homosexual society... where later God sent his wrath and destroy them all and turn their city up side down... i am wondering weather Alexander the great before his time or after his time....

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

Kind of hard to live before Adam, don't you think?

I think that's my point...Adam must be the first Prophet if you follow the Christianity timeline...but Islam may have a different begining for man

I'm curious...my ignorance has no bounds I'm afraid